2020 Defender

SCSL said:

Passing someone in a parking lot a few years back, I was asked: "Is that one of those Toyota Land Rovers?"

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Indeed.

Most I meet still believe Range Rover is a manufacturer, and Land Rover is either a Jeep or Toyota product, or a company that went out of business a long time ago.

People in my own family call my DII a Jeep. Get far enough out in the boondocks and even the Brits do, for some reason; and they know better. That's more on my end of the spectrum, though. A car is there to facilitate the completion of a job. You work with what you have, and it doesn't matter what it is.

That tends to make someone a hell of a lot more picky when they genuinely have their own choice of what to drive. You've lived with every manner of automotive irritation under the sun making quick decisions based on a pool of compromises, and now you're spoiled for choice. You can have anything...

...anything except the car you've imagined on every damned trip you've ever taken; and you want to wring the neck of every manufacturer for not seeing how obvious it all is.

That's why I want to see a hell of a lot more collaboration in the automotive world. They're all good at different things, and great stuff happens when they acknowledge that. Well, aside from the new Supra, anyway. That makes this Defender look like the genuine resurrection of an icon.

Cheers,

Kennith

ERover82 said:

The hard tops are only a dozen bolts and a two man lift. It's something you do twice a year, not daily. Why do it? If the weather is nice, it's a ton of fun.

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And when it rains?

The hard top (or soft top) has to go back on...and off again. You definitely remove/put on the hard top more than twice a year. Unless you're just a glutton for punishment.

SGaynor said:

And when it rains?

The hard top (or soft top) has to go back on...and off again. You definitely remove/put on the hard top more than twice a year. Unless you're just a glutton for punishment.

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If you do that, it's a 2nd/3rd vehicle and you don't drive it that day. If it's a daily driver, then you either get a soft top and live with the compromise, which isn't as bad as it used to be with modern engineering, or you get a standard top and accept that your lifestyle requires it.

kennith said:

It's really just the "Series IV Land Rover".

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Don’t forget the Stage One 109 which was the transition to a V8.

So maybe Series VI.

SGaynor said:

And when it rains?

The hard top (or soft top) has to go back on...and off again. You definitely remove/put on the hard top more than twice a year. Unless you're just a glutton for punishment.

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My buddy just bought a JK with hardtop and whatever they call the removable panels (T-tops) I helped him take the doors and those panels off last week at the beach. Literally took 10minutes for 2 doors and both T-Tops. You get the Jeep feel, without all the pain of putting the top up and down..
That said I remember seeing a manufacturer that makes power tops for the Wrangler. Undo the latches and press the button.. done!

I had a hard top on the CJ and a soft top on the Wrangler. The hard top usually stayed on or off for extended periods. Yes I got soaked more than once (would probably be a lot less now with a cellphone). The soft top only took a few minutes to get up or down. Dead of winter 20 degrees or middle of summer 95 degrees I don't remember it not keeping me comfortable. However it was loud and there was just no getting around that. That and you couldn't secure your shit. I guess life is full of compromise.

SGaynor said:

And when it rains?

The hard top (or soft top) has to go back on...and off again. You definitely remove/put on the hard top more than twice a year. Unless you're just a glutton for punishment.

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I think you're being obtuse here, or you're thinking like Land Rover designers. Thinking YOU know best what people should want.
So you don't want to take the top off, then don't. Others want to, and they do, and they don't complain about it.
You're arguement is weak. It's like trying to convince a motorcyclist how impractical a motorcycle is for transportation. Guess what? They're fun and the riders don't give a shit about how unsafe they are or about the rain.

fishEH said:

I think you're being obtuse here, or you're thinking like Land Rover designers. Thinking YOU know best what people should want.
So you don't want to take the top off, then don't. Others want to, and they do, and they don't complain about it.
You're arguement is weak. It's like trying to convince a motorcyclist how impractical a motorcycle is for transportation. Guess what? They're fun and the riders don't give a shit about how unsafe they are or about the rain.

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No, he knows what people actually want. Most Jeeps may as well have the tops welded on; much like most convertibles are a bad purchase decision. You pay more money, destroy the chassis, add mass, promote leaks, and raise the center of gravity for what? The five times you'll ever drop that top?

Humans have a habit of assuming their group represents the majority in any industry.

If ten thousand people cream their shorts over a soft top, that's not a particularly important number; but in Jeep's case, that community still legitimizes the car, which exists to legitimize their other cars. The fact that we all know a bunch of people who appreciate this stuff is irrelevant. We are in an echo chamber.

Cheers,

Kennith

kennith said:

No, he knows what people actually want. Most Jeeps may as well have the tops welded on; much like most convertibles are a bad purchase decision. You pay more money, destroy the chassis, add mass, promote leaks, and raise the center of gravity for what? The five times you'll ever drop that top?

Humans have a habit of assuming their group represents the majority in any industry.

If ten thousand people cream their shorts over a soft top, that's not a particularly important number; but in Jeep's case, that community still legitimizes the car, which exists to legitimize their other cars. The fact that we all know a bunch of people who appreciate this stuff is irrelevant. We are in an echo chamber.

Cheers,

Kennith

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So I'd guess I have to ask. You say people don't buy them for the soft/removable top, they don't buy them to wheel, they don't buy them for this, that, or the other thing. So why the fuck are people buying them, in droves? It isn't the great gas mileage, nor the handling or ride comfort, it's not for all the space to store your goodies, so why is it? Are you saying it's nothing more than an image it projects that the hundreds of thousands of buyers are falling for? I can't tell you how many Wranglers I saw driving home this afternoon. Way, way more than any other model of vehicle out there. I find it hard to believe all these owners are a bunch of dumbasses conned into buying something they don't want. Keeping in mind that most people put a fair amount of thought into a 40k purchase.

DiscoHasBeen said:

So I'd guess I have to ask. You say people don't buy them for the soft/removable top, they don't buy them to wheel, they don't buy them for this, that, or the other thing. So why the fuck are people buying them, in droves? It isn't the great gas mileage, nor the handling or ride comfort, it's not for all the space to store your goodies, so why is it? Are you saying it's nothing more than an image it projects that the hundreds of thousands of buyers are falling for? I can't tell you how many Wranglers I saw driving home this afternoon. Way, way more than any other model of vehicle out there. I find it hard to believe all these owners are a bunch of dumbasses conned into buying something they don't want. Keeping in mind that most people put a fair amount of thought into a 40k purchase.

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Yes, they buy them for the image; and not always because they understand it. It's a unique style in the modern world; only matched by the G, and that's a hell of a lot more money. You also sit relatively high in the air, and it's got a "safe" look, even if it's not particularly safe on the road.

It's no different than all the half and three-quarter ton pickups on the road; or decked out carbines.

The price is palatable for parents, as well; and the more college kids you see rolling around in Wranglers, the fewer red convertibles will be sold to yuppies.

Some buy them because they go on dirt trails every now and again and want to feel capable; speculators and others in similar arenas. In the end, though, it projects an active image, which is exceedingly popular at the moment. Females seem to think they're cute, as well. If you've been to one of their lots recently you will have seen the row of pink Wranglers; and while I think it's cool, let's face it: Those aren't aimed at men.

People don't put nearly enough thought into a $40,000 purchase. It's the second most expensive purchase they'll ever make, and they don't even know what all the switches and knobs do in a Honda, let alone a Jeep. You have too much faith in the average human.

It's a fine vehicle to drive around if you're not overly picky about handling, so it's not as if they've made a mistake buying it. They wouldn't understand anything they bought, so I suppose it's nice that they went for a Jeep instead of a Prius.

Cheers,

Kennith

kennith said:

much like most convertibles are a bad purchase decision. You pay more money, destroy the chassis, add mass, promote leaks, and raise the center of gravity for what? The five times you'll ever drop that top?

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Ken,

Love my ‘04 Saab 9-3 ‘vert.

And drop the top the majority of the days I / we drive it!

Drives pretty well top up or down.

Blueboy said:

Ken,

Love my ‘04 Saab 9-3 ‘vert.

And drop the top the majority of the days I / we drive it!

Drives pretty well top up or down.

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Oh, some people really dig it, no doubt.

Most, however, do not. As noted, it's very easy to assume an unrealistic number of people understand or appreciate an interest.

We all do it; there's always at least one area in which we forget to be objective.

Cheers,

Kennith

kennith said:

We all do it; there's always at least one area in which we forget to be objective.

Cheers,

Kennith

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I love the dichotomy of stubborn wisdom and humble introspectiveness that comprises your posts.

kennith said:

You have too much faith in the average human.

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You have no idea how wrong you are. That said no, I don't have the level of disdain you do. And I think it clouds your judgment just a tad.

pinkytoe69 said:

I love the dichotomy of stubborn wisdom and humble introspectiveness that comprises your posts.

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As I once read in a Chinese instruction manual: "It's always best to be two people when putting things together."

One of the few sentences I'll remember until the day I die, and it's fucking Engrish.

Cheers,

Kennith

DiscoHasBeen said:

You have no idea how wrong you are. That said no, I don't have the level of disdain you do. And I think it clouds your judgment just a tad.

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It probably does, but not much. I despise humanity, but I do have to live with us, after all.

I do keep that in mind in conversation, but I don't always explicitly acknowledge it.

Perhaps I should have been more specific. I refer in that post to faith in their decision making process when buying a car; nothing deeper than that.

Cheers,

Kennith

Good news

Speaking with the engineering team, I asked about the ability to fit larger off-road tires. They said a 35-inch tire will certainly fit, but will require a one-inch suspension lift. A response that direct gave me the feeling that someone at Land Rover had already tried this.

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Off-road enthusiasts will be keen to know that while P400 Defenders are fitted with 3.55 axle ratios, a factory 4.10 ratio is standard on the P300, so re-gearing for larger tires will be possible using factory parts.

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The capability described above is supported by a next-generation anti-lock brake system that responds twice as fast as what was previously possible. The Defender can now lock a wheel in just 150 milliseconds, compared to the 300 milliseconds it takes vehicle like the Range Rover to do the same.

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Bad news

One design element that is going to frustrate off-road modifications is the front bumper. It integrates cooling elements that Rob Atkin, the Defender’s technical director describes as “essential.” So, you won’t simply be able to remove that bumper and replace it with a common steel item. Instead, the aftermarket will need time to develop dedicated solutions that retain the cooling system’s functionality. But, there is at least a factory winch and mounting kit available, and those will work in concert with the vehicle’s cooling needs.

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https://www.outsideonline.com/2401929/new-land-rover-defender

ERover82 said:

Good news


Bad news


https://www.outsideonline.com/2401929/new-land-rover-defender

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I don't think it's going to be a big issue, but I could be missing something. If that valence and center section come off, that's most of the battle won. The problem with many vehicles is the panel break is halfway around the wheel arch; and that's just an unreasonable expectation out of a fabricator at the prices people want to pay. On top of that you end up with an extremely heavy bumper and a stupid looking vehicle.

Let's say you pull that thing off and the radiators are back there. Big deal. Just replace that center section with steel. It's not a super complicated shape. There's you're roo bar and winch tray, and just look at the rest more like a rock slider. Of course, that's all assuming there's something to attach it to, but since Land Rover will invariably offer a winch, there must be something back there.

As long as decent mounting points are present, I think it'll be mostly fine.

Cheers,

Kennith

Who the fuck designs a front bumper like that? Who the fuck?? Smh....

kennith said:

No, he knows what people actually want. Most Jeeps may as well have the tops welded on; much like most convertibles are a bad purchase decision. You pay more money, destroy the chassis, add mass, promote leaks, and raise the center of gravity for what? The five times you'll ever drop that top?

Humans have a habit of assuming their group represents the majority in any industry.

If ten thousand people cream their shorts over a soft top, that's not a particularly important number; but in Jeep's case, that community still legitimizes the car, which exists to legitimize their other cars. The fact that we all know a bunch of people who appreciate this stuff is irrelevant. We are in an echo chamber.

Cheers,

Kennith

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You have no idea what you're talking about, and neither does Scott(surprise). I see Jeeps with no tops and no doors running around all the time, and I'm not located in a particularly warm climate. People want fun. For some that's no top. For others its no doors. Others like 2 doors, some 4 doors. Some like a pickup version. You can sit here all day and tell me how dumb people are for liking the Wrangler because they're all being fooled, but everyone knows that's bullshit.
Yeah, 10,000 soft top sales really isn't that impressive, LOL!