04 traction control

boulder4x4

Well-known member
Sep 17, 2017
64
3
46
Colorado
Can someone explain why my traction control decides to work sometimes. This past weekend I got crossed axle and my TC would not spin the rear tires. Don't I have a limited slip?
 

jastutte

Well-known member
Nov 10, 2009
461
71
not unless you have an after market diff. the stock front and rear diffs are open.

the TC uses the ABS system to apply selective braking to regain traction.
 

Swedjen2

Well-known member
Sep 12, 2018
594
127
California
I assume you locked the diff.? Then 50% of the power goes to both axels, so one of the rear tires should have spun. The TC is then supposed to brake the spinning one so the non-spinner gets traction. However, if you have weak or worn out or crummy rotors/pads, the brakes won't do their job very well and your TC will be a fail.
That's why if you have TC, you should get the best rotors/pads you can afford....don't go cheap and buy some no-name bargian basement Peoples Republic of China rotors/pads.
 

K-rover

Well-known member
Jan 15, 2010
2,163
62
Raleigh, NC
Sounds like the OP doesnt have a CDL. Also, If you are too heavy on the throttle you will overpower the traction control. 1800 rpm seems to be the sweet spot.
 
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Swedjen2

Well-known member
Sep 12, 2018
594
127
California
The 04's have CDL. Maybe the OP needs a new/working Transfer Case?
Ashcroft is your friend.
So is Synchrogearboxes.com, but now it looks like they only build Transfer Cases for racing and rock crawlers.
Good info on the RPM sweet spot!
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
The 04's have CDL. Maybe the OP needs a new/working Transfer Case?
Ashcroft is your friend.
So is Synchrogearboxes.com, but now it looks like they only build Transfer Cases for racing and rock crawlers.
Good info on the RPM sweet spot!

It's possible he didn't actually lock it, but even if he did, a cross-axle scenario requires functional traction control and a steady pedal; potentially foot braking. You've got to give traction control time to work, if it actually does work.

I contacted Syncro. They replied in exceptional detail to my questions, and really seem to know their stuff.

Cheers,

Kennith
 
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boulder4x4

Well-known member
Sep 17, 2017
64
3
46
Colorado
so... to eliminate this further. should I get some sort of limited slip or locker. Will it render the TC useless?... And yes I do have a cdl. and I know how to use it.

Swedjen2: you might be on to something with the "working" tcase, as I do not have reverse. But all forward gears work just fine.
 

K-rover

Well-known member
Jan 15, 2010
2,163
62
Raleigh, NC
so... to eliminate this further. should I get some sort of limited slip or locker. Will it render the TC useless?... And yes I do have a cdl. and I know how to use it.

Swedjen2: you might be on to something with the "working" tcase, as I do not have reverse. But all forward gears work just fine.
So with your CDL locked, was 1 tire per axle spinning?
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
If you don't have reverse, I'd be looking at the transmission, not the transfer case. I'd also stay the hell off of trails until you have it working. Reverse is an extremely important gear, as it'll get you out of situations that would roll you right down a hill, otherwise.

If the transfer case locks and the vehicle drives without issue, it's working. Aside from the obvious stuff, it's just an open differential with a locker. It's just like one you'd put in a rear axle. Land Rovers are essentially AWD vehicles with a center locker. There's no more magic behind it than that.

Your axle differentials are just normal open units. There is nothing special in there; just open differentials like you'd find on anything else.

When one wheel is buried and another in the air, the one in the air will spin. Differentials are arranged that way. All traction control does is grab that spinning wheel with the brakes so the other wheel turns again. It just does it a shit-load faster than you can with your foot, and it's a little more clever about it.

It sounds like a ball bearing fight in a garage door spring factory right behind the gauge cluster when it's working. If you don't hear that (you'll know it if you do), or the ABS/HDC/TC ("Three Amigos") lights are on in the gauge cluster, it may not be working at all. Sometimes is does work even when it's faulty, though. This is a known problem area that can be corrected fairly easily these days.

The world of lockers and limited slips is vast. I'd take some time considering things before you make a choice, and certainly get what you already have working properly before buying anything, and spend some time getting used to how it likes to be driven. They're incredibly capable, and even I have done most of the "popular" trails in mine when it was stock.

Here are some options and how they interact with traction control:

1: Selectable lockers.

ARB and things of that nature fall into this category. When unlocked, traction control is still doing it's job. If you're locked all around, traction control doesn't really have much to do. Traction control, in this event, prevents you from needing to lock it often. Once locked, you will no longer have any wheels spinning faster than others, so traction control has no reason to operate.

This does not mean it's always the best system, mind you. You can't just use a locker wherever you like, and that means you get nothing beyond factory traction control in snow, rain, gravel... You kind of want to be sure a locker is right for you before spending the money, as it's not as easy an installation.

You're either knee-capping your vehicle's potential or dramatically augmenting it; and precisely where you like to take it and under what conditions will determine which one of those is true. Most people like them.

2: Limited Slips.

Similar to a "posi", a limited slip can benefit from traction control a bit, and still retains a bit of bite even if a wheel is in the air. It's not a locker, but you get it all the time, sometimes at the expense of handling in certain conditions. These are easier to install, but do require special fluids that aren't really all that special anymore. The clutch packs are a wear item, but how quickly they wear is determined by use and setup; and there is a bit of tailoring available.

I don't see too many people running these in Land Rovers, but they are indeed available.

3: Automatic Torque Biasing.

This is what I use, by Quaife, but you'd probably be more familiar with "Torsen" or "Truetrac" branding. Manufacturers have different ways of accomplishing the effect, but basically it's about as dummy-proof as a differential gets, and as smart as a pile of gears gets. If one wheel is in the air, it will spin, but until that happens it's smooth as silk and helps traction/handling in all conditions. Traction control works well with these; they both help each other out.

They work under all conditions, don't require any special fluids or adjustments, and drop right in like a factory differential. You install it and just ignore the thing. Done. It won't get you that last 10% that a locker will, but it'll give you the 90% that a locker won't. The question is: Do you need that 10%?

Most people who do frequent trail rides prefer to have a locker if it's in the financial cards, if only because that's considered the best. In reality, it's only the best when it's locked, and when it's not, it does nothing at all.

It's a big, expensive decision that people don't really spend enough time thinking about. Lockers are great, but be sure it's the option that's going to put the biggest smile on your face before spending the money. If you're into big rocks and deep mud constantly, you're probably a candidate for a locker.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
One more: The true odd-ball of the bunch is the Detroit Locker.

That lets the spinning wheel spin as much as it likes, but still works the bound or buried wheel. I don't like these at all. They can cause your vehicle to crab about going up hills and on side slopes; they've got absolutely no business on the road in snow or even rain, they clank and clunk (not as bad as they used to), they can send more shock loads through axles, and in general aren't the best choice on an AWD vehicle.

Detroit Lockers make much more sense on drag cars, but that doesn't stop people from using them on Rovers. When someone tells you how great they are, you need to immediately ask them how many after-market differentials they've owned. I'll bet the answer is almost always one, and it's the Detroit.

They're a reliable, easy way to get a locker in the rear, that much is true; but it's not a "proper" locker, and it makes a hell of a lot of drivability compromises.

Going Detroit is a decision that should take months to make, and you need to drive a vehicle with one and with another option to see the difference before going through the expense and trouble to install the thing without knowing what it's like. I could see it's utility in more "overland" use, but then again... That handling compromise on gravel and dirt is a big fucking deal out there.

If it's the right choice for you, however, it's probably the only choice for you. Nothing else is going to behave like a Detroit.

There are other designs, but for the most part they are not available for Land Rovers. It's too bad there isn't a Wavetrac available. I'd love to see what that's like.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

Swedjen2

Well-known member
Sep 12, 2018
594
127
California
It's possible he didn't actually lock it, but even if he did, a cross-axle scenario requires functional traction control and a steady pedal; potentially foot braking. You've got to give traction control time to work, if it actually does work.

I contacted Syncro several weeks ago, and never got a response. They'll get one more chance, but after that they're under the bus with the rest of the riffraff.

Cheers,

Kennith

This is posted on their website and is probably why you haven't recieved a response just yet.

WE ARE CLOSED FROM FRIDAY 14TH JUNE UNTIL TUESDAY 25TH JUNE. DURING THIS TIME WE MAY NOT REPLY TO EMAILS. PLEASE BE PATIENT. THANK YOU.

Synchro used to advertise 3 different build stages of the LT230- a basic unit, an upgraded unit for H.D. off-road and the racing unit-which is the one they advertise on their website. Maybe they still would be willing to build the H.D. version, but looks like it would be a special order.
 

StangGT5

Well-known member
Feb 4, 2019
295
130
Atlanta, GA
TC should work almost immediately in an 04, when it is functioning properly. As stated previously, make sure your brakes are 100% and good quality. Mine has activated going over potholes.

If the diff-debate here proves anything, it is that you need to really think about the investment. I had two LR3s, one with with a rear diff lock and one without. They would both go through the same obstacles, but the one with the locker was much smoother about it. The D2 has a lot more axle articulation, but it has a less sophisticated TC.

For what it is worth, I had one of the last Gen 3 Monteros with the torque-biasing rear diff and it was useless to me. Get a wheel in the air and it took a special hand-shake with the e-brake to get it to do anything. Went to a Tahoe Z71 with a G80 factory rear locker and it was 100X better. I guess a locker can crab in snow, but two snow storms went by and I never had that problem unless I purposefully induced oversteer.
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
This is posted on their website and is probably why you haven't recieved a response just yet.

WE ARE CLOSED FROM FRIDAY 14TH JUNE UNTIL TUESDAY 25TH JUNE. DURING THIS TIME WE MAY NOT REPLY TO EMAILS. PLEASE BE PATIENT. THANK YOU.

Synchro used to advertise 3 different build stages of the LT230- a basic unit, an upgraded unit for H.D. off-road and the racing unit-which is the one they advertise on their website. Maybe they still would be willing to build the H.D. version, but looks like it would be a special order.

Edit: They got back to me and addressed every point. (y)

The only problem with their racing unit from my personal perspective is the spool, really; but I've learned more about their work now. In no universe can I see myself needing some of that work, but certain procedures would be very nice to have.

I really want an ATB in the center, and so long as I'm doing it, I figured I'd explore the after-market. I seem to recall syncro being much, much bigger in the past. Maybe I'm mixing them up with a different company.

To be fair, though, the LT230 is built like a brick shit-house. Some consider it the best transfer case ever made. I'm not sure I'd go that far, but they're damned hard to break. I'm more interested in larger bearings and better seals to prevent leaks, which is a perpetual annoyance on these. It's harmless, but I'd rather avoid it.

Cheers,

Kennith
 
Last edited:

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
TC should work almost immediately in an 04, when it is functioning properly. As stated previously, make sure your brakes are 100% and good quality. Mine has activated going over potholes.

If the diff-debate here proves anything, it is that you need to really think about the investment. I had two LR3s, one with with a rear diff lock and one without. They would both go through the same obstacles, but the one with the locker was much smoother about it. The D2 has a lot more axle articulation, but it has a less sophisticated TC.

For what it is worth, I had one of the last Gen 3 Monteros with the torque-biasing rear diff and it was useless to me. Get a wheel in the air and it took a special hand-shake with the e-brake to get it to do anything. Went to a Tahoe Z71 with a G80 factory rear locker and it was 100X better. I guess a locker can crab in snow, but two snow storms went by and I never had that problem unless I purposefully induced oversteer.

That "G80", so far as I am aware, does not function like a Detroit. It's not going to let one wheel spin to hell and back, and it's not going to crab so terribly. It's a full locker; it simply locks automatically like the Detroit. This is still not the best solution in the snow, but it's not nearly as bad. You're not meant to run locked on snowy roads unless you just plain can't get the vehicle moving; in which case you shouldn't even be out there.

Yeah, I know people will cry foul all over the web, but they're wrong. A locker will certainly smooth out difficult trails, though. They're designed specifically for constant conditions of low traction or complicated obstacles. They obviate the need for massive amounts of articulation until terrain gets too extreme for average vehicles.

So, the difference between an ATB and a locker is again that last 10%. With an ATB, you'll be stuck or have to work a bit to keep moving. The locker will take you over. Comes down to how much of your driving doesn't need the locker. If it's quite a bit, you can be better served with the increased traction an ATB or LSD provides all the time; but not always.

As noted, choosing differentials is a decision that should be taken much more seriously than most people do.

I don't know which torque-biasing diff you had in the Montero, as they stopped fitting them many, many years ago, but I have absolutely no trouble when a wheel is in the air, and my traction control hasn't worked since the warranty expired. Others will say the same. I don't do a lot of rock crawling, but I've certainly done it with the ATBs, and I'm not the only one.

When that happens, you just feather the brake pedal a bit to get it moving. It's actually quite smooth. Now, if you completely cross-axle yourself, it's going to be a bit more trouble, but... Just don't do that. 🤣

I'd never say it's a great choice for a dedicated trail rig or rock-hopping enthusiast, but they can indeed compete with lockers under most conditions; it's that last little bit that causes you to have to work at it. The thing is, some trails are nothing but those "last little bits". Obviously that would be irritating as hell without a locker, and difficult to control.

They're not useless under extreme conditions; they're just not the right choice if that is your preferred terrain. They'll do it, but the tougher it gets the more brake action you need, and that can become tiring (as you mentioned) in terrain that just plain won't stop nut-punching you. I try to avoid that stuff, though. I'll do it for fun on occasion, but it's not exactly my favorite part of off-pavement driving.

In the past when I really went all over the place in the middle of nowhere, it was wise to avoid terrain likely to cause a problem. Now that I don't do that stuff anymore (for now, anyway)... Well, it's a simply matter of laziness. :sleep:

Cheers,

Kennith
 

4Runner

Well-known member
May 24, 2007
660
110
Boise Idaho
Just to add on to what Kennith is saying. I don’t know the procedure for locking an ARB unit but my Taco had an E locker. It always locked when needed but you would have to come to a complete stop to do it. That would mean loosing all momentum if you didn’t already. I tend to like units that are helping you through before you get stuck. But like with everything else automotive, there are always trade offs and one thing or another will alway fall short under some circumstances. Hopefully that’s where the unit between your ears kicks in to get you thru it. Or around it. . Lol
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
Just to add on to what Kennith is saying. I don’t know the procedure for locking an ARB unit but my Taco had an E locker. It always locked when needed but you would have to come to a complete stop to do it. That would mean loosing all momentum if you didn’t already. I tend to like units that are helping you through before you get stuck. But like with everything else automotive, there are always trade offs and one thing or another will alway fall short under some circumstances. Hopefully that’s where the unit between your ears kicks in to get you thru it. Or around it. . Lol

There are a number of ways to make ARBs work, but one way or another you're just turning a knob, pushing a button, or flipping a switch. You're also right about momentum, which is where ATBs and LSDs come into play. Of course, in an ideal scenario, you'd lock the diff before you ended up in that situation, but sometimes it's not always easy to spot in unfamiliar terrain.

I know I've hit sand before that would have buried me without those traction aids, and as much fucking sand as I've seen and driven through in my time, I didn't see that one coming.

Kam makes a manually locking limited slip, but from what I've heard (believe or disbelieve at your leisure, because I don't know for sure) the locking mechanism can bind up because of the way it's designed if the axle housing is impacted. The sources were pretty darn trustworthy, but you know how it goes.

If someone did an ATB like that, I'd be all the fuck over it. It's not like I couldn't use a locker on occasion; I just don't want to sacrifice the constant performance enhancement I get in an ATB to get one. That's what'll be so sweet getting the ATB in the center...

...it still locks. :cool:

Cheers,

Kennith
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
This is posted on their website and is probably why you haven't recieved a response just yet.

WE ARE CLOSED FROM FRIDAY 14TH JUNE UNTIL TUESDAY 25TH JUNE. DURING THIS TIME WE MAY NOT REPLY TO EMAILS. PLEASE BE PATIENT. THANK YOU.

Synchro used to advertise 3 different build stages of the LT230- a basic unit, an upgraded unit for H.D. off-road and the racing unit-which is the one they advertise on their website. Maybe they still would be willing to build the H.D. version, but looks like it would be a special order.

Edited:

That notice wasn't there at the time, but they got back to me. They must have been busy as hell running up to that period.

As noted before, I don't know what else they do there.

Cheers,

Kennith
 
Last edited:

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
Just going to bump this because I don't think edits do:

I did get a reply from Syncro, and it was top shelf quality.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

discostew

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2010
7,706
1,015
Northern Illinois
I assume you locked the diff.? Then 50% of the power goes to both axels, so one of the rear tires should have spun. The TC is then supposed to brake the spinning one so the non-spinner gets traction. However, if you have weak or worn out or crummy rotors/pads, the brakes won't do their job very well and your TC will be a fail.
That's why if you have TC, you should get the best rotors/pads you can afford....don't go cheap and buy some no-name bargian basement Peoples Republic of China rotors/pads.
It's a 60 40 split of torque. You loose torque in the helical cut gears going to the front axle. The rear axle gets more because its a splined shaft. But what you do gain when you lock the center dif is one can not spin and turn faster than the other.