100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

[DarylJ]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

I took my block to a company that rebuilds Jeep V8s, they are big on stroking V8s to 5.0.
Anyway the guy looked at it and his first comment was "that's dumb, the tapered liner will work it's way through the head gasket". He recons that plain liners machined flush with the block surface will solve the problem.

I can see that being BETTER, but if you're going though all that trouble, why not machine the top of the block to accept top hat liners? Then you KNOW they aren't going anywhere (because the clamping force of the head and head gasket are holding them in place) and if you have a small crack behind a liner (the typical end of the head bolt cracking) you won't even know it.

That and putting top hats in these motors is a known quantity - it's been done by many people for quite some time.

 

[Blue]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

I do hear some tapping from a couple of engines, but hope it's rocker arm shaft or lifters.
If it is from liners, I definitely see a liner pinning party in my future.

I'd come to that party.

The net outcome from this thread is that the Rover engine is an inferior design.

 

[ptschram]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

I'd come to that party.

The net outcome from this thread is that the Rover engine is an inferior design.

I don't know that it's completely fair to make such a statement. Many of us have had these engines run for LONG times with no apparent problems.

If it were truly inferior, wouldn't we see a greater incidence of failure?

All we see here are anecdotal reports, not a true statistical analysis.

 

[Big Papa]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

I'd come to that party.

The net outcome from this thread is that the Rover engine is an inferior design.

x 2, I've got that ghostly knock at idle, then disappears when rpm's increase. It's comes and goes. I haven't heard it for a couple of months now. I don't know what the hell it is. I just keep going along with 130K on the clock.

 

[Bosbefok]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

I can see that being BETTER, but if you're going though all that trouble, why not machine the top of the block to accept top hat liners? Then you KNOW they aren't going anywhere (because the clamping force of the head and head gasket are holding them in place) and if you have a small crack behind a liner (the typical end of the head bolt cracking) you won't even know it.

That and putting top hats in these motors is a known quantity - it's been done by many people for quite some time.

I agree with you about top hat liners. I was just stating what the machinist said, he was not aware of the use of top hat liners.
Besides a regular liner is $25 plus $50 shop time, that comes to $600 for the complete engine... compared to $1600 for a top hat liner job. Makes one think doesn't it?

 

[jymmiejamz]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

On vehicles that have never been over heated, I've only seen liners move on 03/04 Disco's.

 

[p m]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

I'd come to that party.
The net outcome from this thread is that the Rover engine is an inferior design.

I am not sure if that is entirely true. At the time it was taken up by Rover it had no reliability record, and Brits haven't done anything to improve the design, but punched it out to the max possible displacement. For comparison, it is a common knowledge that AMC 401 engines run hotter and overheat more often than AMC 360, sharing the same block design(but 401 both bored out and stroked).

And there seems to be more proof to the concept that the drastic increase in production rates affected the engines' quality - the time the aluminum blocks were allowed to settle between casting process and machining for the liners decreased from nearly months (for mid-80s 3.5 blocks) to hours (for later 4.6 blocks). That alone would do it.

 

[DarylJ]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

I agree with you about top hat liners. I was just stating what the machinist said, he was not aware of the use of top hat liners.
Besides a regular liner is $25 plus $50 shop time, that comes to $600 for the complete engine... compared to $1600 for a top hat liner job. Makes one think doesn't it?

Of course the price makes you think. But I don't know where you're getting $1600 from. Some place online does it for $1500. I'm sure that a good local shop, depending on where you are, can do it for less. I'm looking at just over $1000 from my shop. I don't have a firm price yet because I haven't tracked down the liners I want to use.

 

[walsnart]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

Where does one purchase top hat liners?

 

[turbodave]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

I've had several shops quote me $150-$200 including the liner themselves. I believe Darton makes sleeves for our engines. Any shop that did it for less than a $1000 is either desperate for work, or cutting corners somewhere...

Of course - a lot of the instal price is removing the old liners by machining them out. I think if you got the block to 120degrees C on your gill (about $5 in propane) all of them will fall out on their own. :victory:

 

[ptschram]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

Of course - a lot of the instal price is removing the old liners by machining them out. I think if you got the block to 120degrees C on your gill (about $5 in propane) all of them will fall out on their own. :victory:

LOL-I figured something like starting a fire, throwing the block on and then cooling the liners with a CO2 fire extinguisher. Now that it looks this easy, I think I'll have a bon fire this evening

Grilled Rover V8 on the menu for tonight!

 

[Big Papa]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

Grilled Rover V8 on the menu for tonight!

with a side of front drive shafts, lock modulators, and a leaking transfer case for dessert.

 

[JohnB]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

Anyone have luck with pressure testing a block to test for slipped liners. I have a core 2001 block that was diagnosed with slipped liners.

I hooked up 60 psi through the block like seen on you tube and do not have any loss of pressure.

I guess I need to get the block heated up to 200 degrees and do the test.

 

[crown14]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

What is the vin from the truck this engine came from and what is the engine serial number.

?

 

[turbodave]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

Anyone have luck with pressure testing a block to test for slipped liners.

I didn't test mine - never saw it neccesary as the engine ran like a champ and didn't use a drop of water (apart from when that damn TB heater started weeping which I fixed immediately).

Just to re-iterate, this engine never used a drop of water, showed no evidence that the heads had ever been off (which every overheated RV8 requires as a matter of course) and didn't burn any oil. Apart from the annoying ticking it was probably just like any other 120K v8 that had reasonably frequent oil changes...

Crown - sorry didn't respond earlier. Engine number was 08d13156A. It is a LCF000250 casting (just looked at some pictures to verify). Not near the Disco to get the Vin - but it was well in the 'bad pump' range if that helps. Can you confirm if the engine is likely the original?

 

[jymmiejamz]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

Anyone have luck with pressure testing a block to test for slipped liners. I have a core 2001 block that was diagnosed with slipped liners.

I hooked up 60 psi through the block like seen on you tube and do not have any loss of pressure.

I guess I need to get the block heated up to 200 degrees and do the test.

What problem were the slipped liners causing? If it was overheating then the block is cracked.

 

[ptschram]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

Anyone have luck with pressure testing a block to test for slipped liners. I have a core 2001 block that was diagnosed with slipped liners.

I hooked up 60 psi through the block like seen on you tube and do not have any loss of pressure.

I guess I need to get the block heated up to 200 degrees and do the test.

Same thing I've experienced, twice.

IMO, the block test is at best presumptive, unless it fails.

 

[JohnB]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

What problem were the slipped liners causing? If it was overheating then the block is cracked.

Local shop diagnosed. His customer took it home. We sold and installed another used engine.

I really don't know the condition. Had to use his heads since our motor didn't have secondary air. Been looking at this low miler block for about 8 months. The liners are flush. None of his coolent hoses had been blown up.

The shop that diagnosed is top notch so I'm sure it was diagnosed right. Just curious on my part. The motor is clean on both sides running down between the middle cylinders, which could only mean coolent or gas was oozing out. Just seems like I should get some air loss from one of those liners.

Not gonna put 125 psi throught the damb thing. I'd probaly loose an eye from a freeze plug popping out.

 

[JohnB]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

Same thing I've experienced, twice.

IMO, the block test is at best presumptive, unless it fails.

Seems to be the truth.

 

[Blue]

Re: 100% Proof that liners are moving at 'normal' operating temps & causing the tapping!

Bringing this thread back up....

2004 D2 with 90,000 miles

My ticking is now present nearly all the time. Used to be only when warm & at idle and would go away with a few revs. Now it starts ticking very loudly and perfectly rythmically as soon as the engine warms up and the ticking just increases in tempo with engine revs. If you listen closely past the road noise you can hear it ticking merrily away on the highway. Sometimes it might go away momentarily or it might skip a beat every now and then but generally it is a very loud and very distinct "ticka-ticka-ticka-ticka-ticka-....." And I mean loud, as if there's a little elf under the hood with a small hammer knocking on the block just to piss me off.

It's in the shop right now getting some other work done and the technician (master Land Rover tech) said that it is piston slap - the engine got hot at some point in the past and 1 (or more) cylinder is warped and the piston has just enough room to slap around as it strokes. I bought this D2 with 49,000 miles and it had already had head gaskets done but it ran quiet and ran well. I started loosing coolant at about 60,000 miles and it was the head gaskets again. It never overheated on me but I can't say that it hasn't been overheated before I purchased it.

It runs fine now except for the ticking. It now uses about 2 quarts of oil between oil changes (about every 3,500 miles). No oil leaks, it's using the oil. When it was younger it would use about a quart or quart & a half between changes.

I brought up the slipping liner issue and the tech said that this is a myth - the liners may be able to be moved like you can see in the video in the first post of this thread, but when the engine is all buttoned up there is nowhere for the liners to go and they therefore can't be causing the ticking noise. Here's a question for you all: is there room for the liners to move up & down within the cylinders when the engine is running? Wouldn't they be held in tight between the block and the heads?

I'm also having them check for exhaust leaks again. I can't find any but I believe that the manifold-to-Ypipe gaskets are originals. The block-to-manifold gaskets were replaced when head gaskets were done about 30K miles ago. The entire exhaust system is original but it all appears to be in good condition.

Any advice besides a new block? If the warped cylinder diagnosis is plausible, what about boring them out? Any off the shelf options for boring, new liners (pinned or top hat this time), and new pistons? Or what about boring and re-lining with thicker liners so stock pistons can be used?