2004 Disco lasted 9.3 miles...up shits creek...

[lanceputnam]

Alright. We have all made mistakes. This one is going to cost me. Brief synopsis: Bought an '04 disco last week that was super clean and white. I really really like white. So I bought it. Had it delivered from Texas to Albuquerque. Took delivery of it Wednesday night. Fired it up and noticed that it did have a "tick" like the previous owner disclosed. Otherwise immaculate as I wanted. Drove it home and realized that the tick was actually a knock and immediately I recognized the sound. For sure, a slipped liner. The truck, however, had fantastic power and other than the "knock" it ran wonderfully. Today I fired it up, drove it to have its new tires installed and on the ride home, at exactly 9.3 miles since owning it, it overheated and lost its head gaskets and most of the coolant which I can assume was a product of the slipped liner. Lost almost all power and within 30 seconds it was in the red on the guage and pure white death coming out of the tail pipe. Fuck me running.

First I would like to start off by asking that this thread remain pure mechanical. Yes, I am pissed and I do feel that I was mislead slightly during the purchase. But fuck it. I bought it sight unseen and I plan on seeing this fucking money pit rise again. I will settle up with him and he and I are on the same page after a conversation this afternoon. Until then, lets get this thing fixed. I am pot committed to my white dreamy death bucket.

I have done full head gaskets on my last d2 with no issues. As far as myself as the mechanic goes, thats as far as I am willing to go with my schedule. Anything crazier than that, I need to pay someone to do. Everything above the head gaskets is essentially new. All of it was installed December 2011. This includes rockers, arms, valve train, etc...

I am pretty convinced that it was a slipped liner that set this nightmare off. With that said, the block is most likely compromised. OR can I have it tested, welded, and the top hats put in? Is this a proper repair that will last? Also can I do this without having to disassemble the block myself? Is that common for a machine shop to be able to disassemble, fix, and reassemble the block for me?

If the block cannot be repaired, where can I get a new block that will not allow this to happen again and will come plug and play ready so I can just bolt it in and build it from the HG up? I do not trust just buying a random block or full up engine as this CANNOT happen again. If I am going to pour some more serious money into this rig, I need it to go for a while.

The rover cannibal place with their "cannibal v8" looks great but all the reports on here say that the service is sketchy and that worries me.

Thanks for the help ahead of time guys, Im gonna need it on this one. atriot:

Anyone know of any solid rover shops in Albuquerque just incase I decide to turn it over to a shop for repair?

 

[carlosz]

rover v8s are becoming scarcefor the same reason of your failure, one of the best yet expensive options is top hat lining... aluminumv8.com is a place imsure there are a few around your neck of the woods... normally top lining runs in the 2500 to 3000 bucks neigborhood, then add all the gaskets and parts for overhaul assembly and you are quickly in to the 4.5k range... throw shop labor and thats another 1.5k
when all is said and done you may end up with a 6k bill on a motor.
as for mechanical reliability when complete, it is all about the machine shop and whoever builds the engine, elctronic reliability.... oh well its a rover... toss a coin.

 

[KyleT]

get a cheap 4.0 and swap in all of your 4.6 internals.

IIRC there is no longer anyone making blocks for these anymore. you might be able to find a NOS, but it could be pricey.

would not deal with car cannibal. you might be buying parts off of a car that they haven't even paid the owner for...

 

[listerdiesel]

Sorry to hear of the failure, that's a real bummer in anyone's language.

I do find it odd that it went so quickly, but you were there and saw/heard it happen, so no arguing about that.

There are still a few NOS engines around in the UK, but shipping would be possibly expensive, have a look on www.ebay.co.uk rather than www.ebay.com

In the UK, Turner Engineering are probably the best company to go to, you could ship your bare short engine over to them, or find someone in the USA to do the job. Turners will sell the liners only.

If you go that route, buy a quality gasket set, Victor Reinz or similar, DON'T use anything from Britpart or one of the ebay vendors.

If you need any help with arranging shipping of getting hold of anyone over here, give me a shout.

Good luck.

Peter

 

[turbodave]

If you are good with wrenching, just get a block from turner shipped to your door.

It is about $2300 all in delivered, including the core charge.

Throw in a set of rings, BE, mains, ARP studs, and the AB head gasket kit (Assured, these come with premium gaskets - some others that claim to - don't) and just get it done.

 

[DennyDoler]

I had a local shop build my 4.6 for just under $2500. They overbored the block and installed new thicker non top hat liners with 0.030 press fit. They showed me the difference between the thickness of the top hat liners and they ones they used for my and the non top hat liners made more sense. I just picked my truck up friday and did the 200 mile break in yesterday. The engine is very quiet with no ticks or typical Bosch valvetrain noises. I'm running the 270 crower cam and lifters and I believe the lifters are reason behind the lack of ticking going on. I have about 700 miles of driving I have to do over the next couple of days and hopefully the ecm will remap for the new cam and I can see the true MPG.

Give me a call if you want talk 706.248.2758






.

 

[turbodave]

So the thinnest, weakest section most prone to cracking on any Rv8 block, is now even thinner on your block courtesy of your new "thick" liners?
Not sure that is something I'd be too impressed with.

I also hope you meant to type 0.003 instead of 0.03 for the interference? 30thou is just plain ridiculous.

 

[DarylJ]

So the thinnest, weakest section most prone to cracking on any Rv8 block, is now even thinner on your block courtesy of your new "thick" liners?

I wonder just how much is left between the inboard head bolts and the liners at this point.

But if you use the right adhesive it should be fine, right?

 

[turbodave]

But if you use the right adhesive it should be fine, right?

It all depends on if you changed your driveshaft joints. PM me your phone number and I'll talk you through it.

 

[crown14]

In mid year '02 they stopped putting oil coolers on the Discovery, and switched back to the smaller D1 style engine fan. Then switched to 4.6 engines for 03 and 04 which suffer from a slew of common issues in addition to the tendency to run hot then blow head gaskets, the most well known being the oil pump failure. There is also cam bearing failure, excessive rocker shaft wear, rod bearing failure, cracked liners, even piston wrist pin problems, and more that I can't recall at the moment.
The 99-02 Range Rover 4.6 has a different front cover (oil filter angle is different) but the engine itself is identical and don't demonstrate anywhere close to the same type or amount of issues as the discovery versions. To me it seems to point to the oil cooler/cooling system changes made in the Disco in late '02- combined with the fact that an additional .6L of displacement will produce just a little more heat under the hood. More heat= good for combustion, reduction of emissions, and helped keep the MPG ratings from a significant decrease even though the larger engine burned more fuel. The increased heat also explains why the special airbox lids are always breaking.

The airbox, air intake hose, and MAF were other stupid changes for the 03/04 model years.
The engine air filter is of course exactly the same as the 99-02 4.0L Discovery, as is the throttle body, and the sensor part of the MAF. Only the diameter of the MAF housing increased, and naturally MAF end of the air intake hose and airbox lid had to increase as well. What purpose did that serve though since the actual sensor is the same and the throttle body itself is the same? Well- perhaps this allowed them to use up the leftover P38 MAF sensor assemblies.

The bottom line is, a good replacement 4.6 from a P38 is the most affordable option and you are much more likely to get an engine that will last versus getting one from another 03/04 truck- and more importantly- unless you address the issues that cause the increased problems in the 03/04 trucks, you can expect issues again no matter what motor you put in. Especially in a hot climate.


I would also like to add that IMO the whole "dropped sleeve" thing is largely myth. It happens, but not nearly as often as it is posted about on this board. It has become something like diagnosing every kid who doesn't know how to act as having ADD, only once the diagnosis is made and the engine replaced, noone ever cares to take the time/trouble and legitimately verify it (if they even can).

 

[DennyDoler]

So the thinnest, weakest section most prone to cracking on any Rv8 block, is now even thinner on your block courtesy of your new "thick" liners?
Not sure that is something I'd be too impressed with.

I also hope you meant to type 0.003 instead of 0.03 for the interference? 30thou is just plain ridiculous.

When I say thicker I'm not saying inches thicker we're talking fractions of an inch. And if we are talking about the water jacket cracking you are also talking about the cylinder wall correct? I could be a fool and I'm sure I'll find out if the thicker liners installed with 0.030 press cause a problem with the water jackets. I have three engines with very small cracks in one of the cylinder liners just below the deck. I'm not an engineer, but it would seem like the thickness of the liners would be a contributor to the issue of cracks and additional meat in the wall would be beneficial when transfering heat between to dissimilar metals.

Here are some before and after pics of the block with old liners and new.

 

[turbodave]

Well, by my calcs, you'd need only 3.5 thou of interference to have basically a "zero" fit at 220 degrees, so that means at ambient, it you targeted a 5 thou fit, you will have guaranteed hold of the liner at higher temps.
In reality, you'd probably get away with just 3-thou, because as anyone who has ever played with precision parts knows, if you have two parts with an ID and OD the same, they don't exactly slide together... Plus, we have a relativly long section in the liner, so any very slight deviation in cylindricity or straightness will add to the "holding" by virtue of this tolerance that comes "free" with any mass-produced part made to a price, rather than space-shuttle tolerances.

The other consideration is that at -40, you have added 2.6 thou of interference beause the alloy has shrunk further than the iron liner... Any time you make an interfence fit, tight, then you are basically creating massive stresses in the two components, which then increases further when the temperature drops (and reduces as the temp climbs, hence the engines start rattling at operating temps).
The iron liners are relativly stable, but if subjected to excessive compression, I believe could move out of shape which would not be good for piston sealing. The bigger issue however, is in the block cylinders (the water jacket); the cylinders (unlike the liners) are being put into tension - and cast alloy (even the high quality alloy Rover used in the RV8) is not exactly renowned for its ability to withstand tensile loads.

As regards the 30-thou fit, even if you use liquid nitrogen, the max you will shrink the liners is about 10 thou (assuming iron liners). If you heated the block to 400 deg F, you'll expand the bores by approx 16 thou - so that means you have to press that liner fully home into a 4-thou interference fit to get your 30-thou interference... It's just not going to happen - and if you did somehow manage it, I'm sure as the block and liner start heading towards ambient temperature, a failure will follow soon after.

The problem area on these blocks is that thin section between the bores in the water jacket where they decided to leave a thin area for water to flow betwen. This makes the cylinder wall very thin - and it is the point they always crack. I still can't figure out why they didn't / couldn't eliminate this waterway, and have the coolant flow all around the bores - alloy is such a great conductor of heat afterall - it's also done on other alloy and even iron blocks...

 

[wheelen disco]

I've had excellent luck with pinning liners on rv8's, I even did it to a buddy's 04 with know liner movement. And its still going strong 2 years and 20,000 miles.

 

[turbodave]

The liner pinning thing has had a resurgence for sure - I wish I'd have done it to mine.

 

[crown14]

Oversize liners are industry standard when it comes to rebuilding sleeved blocks like these. Doesn't Turner use oversize liners? And Robison?

 

[lanceputnam]

Heres the Monday update-

Had it towed to Rob Dassler's (Southwest Rovers) shop this morning. Have heard through many people that he is the guy to get the job done properly. After speaking with him and looking around his shop this morning, I beleive it. Unfortunately, there are about 6 defenders and discoverys inline ahead of my Disco waiting to have at a minumum top end rebuilds. So the wait begins. I was told that it would be atleast a month before he could even start to tear it down to see where we are going to go from here and to find out whether the block is even salvagable.

For now, thats where the rover sits. Atleast its in line for repair as we speak.

I am open to all other suggestions. I have called and left messages at Will's shop, Rover Cannibal, and Eaglelite Auto to hopefully find a solution on getting this engine replaced. As of right now I am looking at 2k+ just for a rental car to get myself around for the next two months so any solution that can get my disco back sooner is highly valued. Thanks.

 

[honda50r]

I wish you the best of luck. Glad it's at a credible source. How come you didn't take it to SW Rovers in the first place?

 

[turbodave]

Oversize liners are industry standard when it comes to rebuilding sleeved blocks like these. Doesn't Turner use oversize liners? And Robison?

There is oversized, by maybe 20thou, and then there is oversized by what looks like maybe 160 thou if those pics are anything to go by ???

The one benefit, is that this wider liner is obviously being clamped in place by the firing ring now, so is in essence similar to a top-hat liner.

 

[DarylJ]

As of right now I am looking at 2k+ just for a rental car to get myself around for the next two months

You bought a D2 as your only vehicle?

So this advice is too late but: that's a really bad idea. Not because they are particularly unreliable (they are fine-ish when serviced well and up to date on maintenance...which is an example you're unlikely to find...most are in maintenance debt quite badly) but having to rush for parts and service will absolutely kill you. If you need them running in a hurry after a problem you're going to have to empty your wallet.

In fact, I'm not sure I could ever in good conscience tell anyone that owning one is a good idea unless you are capable, equipped, and have the facilities to work on one yourself. This is why they are so cheap as far as purchase price. Nothing is for free: pay now, or pay later in cash or sweat.

 

[turbodave]

If you really need a rental for 2 months, call around and ask to speak with the manager of the local rental places. I negociated a great deal for an extended rental (7 weeks) on a car that had reached the mileage that they trade them out (and therefore was about to head to the auctions) so they weren't tying up one of their newer vehicles on a long-term rental.
I also got my own rental car coverage through my own insurance coverage on my then current vehicle (a $5/month cost add) which meant I could skip on the rental insurance.