2020 Defender

ERover82

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2011
3,899
450
Darien Gap
The people that want to do outdoorsy stuff aren't going to buy the Defender. They're going to buy a Subaru, or Jeep, or maybe a 4Runner. The new Defender isn't even going to dent that market. This model isn't going to pull in any NEW customers. No one is selling their Jeep to buy a new Defender.

Maybe. My neighbor, a lifted truck/Jeep driving guy was excited over it. One data point, but didn't expect it. The off-road-in-comfort thing is all the rage these days, even if its only in image. Gone are the days of screaming down the trail/creek/freeway in V8 CJs with all thoughts of safety and comfort thrown to the wind. There's are some who understand what has been lost, and some who understand that better compromises can be struck, but it's the minority. I hope they figure out how to add a more open top. It seems possible to keep a modern engineered body frame and implement a fabric top in sections. Jeep did this and wrapped the whole top over it.
 

SGaynor

Well-known member
Dec 6, 2006
7,148
162
52
Bristol, TN
They made a vehicle that is a jack of all trades, yet master at none. Its luxurious, but not as much as a Discovery or Range Rover. It can be offroaded, but can't be modified enough for most serious off roaders. It can be outdoorsy, but the price tag will be prohibitive for a lot of people that acutally use them for hauling bikes and kayaks and such.
This seems to me to be the biggest argument people have against these modern SUVs. The reality is, the number of people who are going to do this is vanishingly small, and definitely not worth the time of a major automaker looking to sell 100s of thousands of vehicles.

I don't disagree that younger people with less income will buy Jeeps and Subarus. But the family of 4 (or 5) with all their shit wanting to go outdoors? What are their options? The Tahoe/Suburban, Ford Explorer, 4Runner? The Discovery/Rangie? The price tag of the new Defender isn't much more than that of a Tahoe/Suburban, but it'll be a heck of a lot more capable. (I did a build of a Defender and it was ~$78K; Tahoe ~$66K. It's worth the prices difference, IMO. YMMV)

I'm guessing you are tempted to buy it because its cool looking and would be fun to drive? Let's face it, a 1969 FJ40 isn't exactly cutting edge technology. It doesn't have any better 4WD capability that a D1, and its probably not super comfortable. But its a vehicle that, after you park it and lock it up, you'll look back at as you're walking away just because its cool.

Simply put, the Defender won't be FUN to drive. It will be like driving any other milk-toast SUV on the market.
Of course, I'd buy it because it's cool, and pretty competent off-road. It's why I also like the Series Land Rovers. Neither would ever be my daily driver, or something I'd take on a 8h drive. Driving a 25 year old Defender with no A/C would be the same thing, IMO. None of those are "fun" to drive; if I wanted fun to drive, I'd by a BMW M4.

But, I'm also interested in the new Defender because I think it looks good, but it is also modern - very modern in terms of it's capabilities. It'll be on the size of the Tahoe, Grand Cherokee, Discovery, 4Runner...but it should be a heck of a lot more capable.
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
Simply put, the Defender won't be FUN to drive. It will be like driving any other milk-toast SUV on the market.

It'll be a shit-ton more fun than anything Toyota actually sells here. It will be far more stable than a Jeep, and it will probably handle decently well.

Most SUVs suck to drive. I've never touched a Rover that wasn't up for getting frisky on tarmac, dirt, snow, or gravel.

Whether or not that qualifies as "fun" is subjective; but Land Rovers will generally do things you wouldn't expect once you get the hang of them. That's one of my biggest gripes about the SUV world: If the dolts at Land Rover can make an SUV do tricks, nobody else has an excuse for anything less.

I've pretty much given up on finding something interesting. I mean, this Defender may be a fine everyday vehicle for me; I'll certainly test drive one, but once you've rallied, auto-crossed, and fucking drifted a DII... Get in anything else and it's just a disappointment.

This Defender can be no worse than other options in comparison; and is almost certainly going to be better than most. Obviously I'm not comparing it in regard to crawling over rocks, but that's only part of the story. I want more than that, and I know it's possible, because I'm driving something on solid axles made eighteen years ago that does it all.

The Range Rover Sport is probably the closest to my preference at the moment, but I don't like the looks of them, and I hate that "center bar" dash style they've been going with and the controls don't really work well for me.

I do think the Defender looks cool, though; from every angle except the rear. The interior is well designed, I'm sure it's capable, and it won't suck to drive. I might want something crazier at this point, but if I get an SUV, the Defender is actually right near the top of the list.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

K-rover

Well-known member
Jan 15, 2010
2,163
62
Raleigh, NC
This seems to me to be the biggest argument people have against these modern SUVs. The reality is, the number of people who are going to do this is vanishingly small, and definitely not worth the time of a major automaker looking to sell 100s of thousands of vehicles.
Idk? Then why do I see at least one lifted Jeep at every stoplight? Including JLs and JTs. Are they all going offroad every weekend? Probably not, but they still spent the money to look like they did. Or just to make their Jeep their own. Jeep finally realized they were leaving money on the table. Guy walks in to the dealership and buys a new 4dr JL. Proceeds to go home and order another small fortune on parts. Now Jeep offers lifts,lights, bumpers, winch..etc all from the dealer and is covered by factory warranty. They understand that the people that buy Jeeps will customize them. Ive seen way more new Jeeps on the trail than old and new Rovers combined!
 

SCSL

Well-known member
Apr 27, 2005
4,144
152
This seems to me to be the biggest argument people have against these modern SUVs. The reality is, the number of people who are going to do this is vanishingly small, and definitely not worth the time of a major automaker looking to sell 100s of thousands of vehicles.

I agree with many of your observations in this thread. But I think you're wrong here. Jeep sells ~200k./year of these Wranglers. The minority that I see anywhere in the country are bone stock. Most have some sort of small lift, wheel and basic bumper set-up. The aftermarket for these trucks is long-thriving despite the minority actually being used off road. Why? Because as stated previously: they look cool and they're fun. Kinda like a real Defender...

I do think the Defender looks cool, though; from every angle except the rear.
Funny, that's the only angle I like it from. I'd be curious to know if it's just me or if others feel that's the only part they got marginally right. Again, I don't hate the vehicle... I hate that it's the Defender 2. As the D5 this would have been money.
 

SGaynor

Well-known member
Dec 6, 2006
7,148
162
52
Bristol, TN
Wow. So LR was supposed to design the new Defender so rednecks can mount 36s that stick out 6" vs actually performing straight from the factory?

I don't know where you live, but here in Appalachia, most Jeeps I see are stock. Yes, there are lifted ones, with the narwhal bumper and 20 lights, but they are definitely in the minority; nowhere near the majority.

I like the rear - just wish they made the door bigger - they could have put the rear lights on the door. But that's a minor complaint.
 
  • Like
Reactions: kennith

K-rover

Well-known member
Jan 15, 2010
2,163
62
Raleigh, NC
Honestly, my D2 does everything I want out of an SUV. The only downside is fuel mileage. My D2 is on 35s 4" lift no sway bars..etc. I just drove it 250 miles each way to the Outer Banks for vacation. 70mph on the highway with AC on. While driving on the beach I came across a new Colorado and Trailblazer that had gotten burried to the frame. Other Jeeps tried to pull them out, but no go. I got the trailblazer out in 1 go and the Colorado out in 2 tugs!
If I could get 15mpg out of my D2, Id probably drive it every day!!
As far as new tech goes. I just installed an Android head unit with 10.1 touchscreen. It literally does everything you could ask. Runs google( or other) maps, bluetooth, runs torque pro... I even have a front and rear camera! Funny enough my 2001 D2 rides smoother than my 2013 daily! My daily has stiff sport suspension and low profile tires. But it gets 30mpg average.
All new Suvs are compromised. The Wrangler the only one that is still built for proper offroading. Everything else is a soccer mom mobile with smart traction control 57440
 

Attachments

  • 20190826_214232.jpg
    20190826_214232.jpg
    2.2 MB · Views: 4

K-rover

Well-known member
Jan 15, 2010
2,163
62
Raleigh, NC
Wow. So LR was supposed to design the new Defender so rednecks can mount 36s that stick out 6" vs actually performing straight from the factory?

I don't know where you live, but here in Appalachia, most Jeeps I see are stock. Yes, there are lifted ones, with the narwhal bumper and 20 lights, but they are definitely in the minority; nowhere near the majority.

I like the rear - just wish they made the door bigger - they could have put the rear lights on the door. But that's a minor complaint.
Another example of a new vehicle that is made for proper offroading, not pretending to be an overlander... I get it LR knows that its buyers wont ever go offroad. They just like the look, but I think that's sad considering their heritage
57442
 

fishEH

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2009
6,927
201
Lake Villa, IL
Wow. So LR was supposed to design the new Defender so rednecks can mount 36s that stick out 6" vs actually performing straight from the factory?

I don't know where you live, but here in Appalachia, most Jeeps I see are stock. Yes, there are lifted ones, with the narwhal bumper and 20 lights, but they are definitely in the minority; nowhere near the majority.

I like the rear - just wish they made the door bigger - they could have put the rear lights on the door. But that's a minor complaint.
You sound like the dolts at Land Rover.
No, Rover is supposed to make something that is actually fun to drive, something that people want to drive. Not something that is good on paper.
Rover is supposed to make something that people can "make their own" which gets back to the fun thing. Who the fuck wants to sit 3 people in a front seat!? Or needs a armrest bag? Or a rinse bag, or a window box!? All gay gimmicks which are poor substitutes for stuff people ACTUALLY want. They couldn't even make a functional rear door.

Rover has designed something THEY think people SHOULD want. And if you don't, well then, you're not the clientele they're looking for anyway. Sales be damned, Land Rover has a haughty image to maintain.
 

Attachments

  • tumblr_ni09uyCMPO1qj8u1do4_400.gif
    tumblr_ni09uyCMPO1qj8u1do4_400.gif
    633.8 KB · Views: 2

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
You sound like the dolts at Land Rover.
No, Rover is supposed to make something that is actually fun to drive, something that people want to drive. Not something that is good on paper.
Rover is supposed to make something that people can "make their own" which gets back to the fun thing. Who the fuck wants to sit 3 people in a front seat!? Or needs a armrest bag? Or a rinse bag, or a window box!? All gay gimmicks which are poor substitutes for stuff people ACTUALLY want. They couldn't even make a functional rear door.

Rover has designed something THEY think people SHOULD want. And if you don't, well then, you're not the clientele they're looking for anyway. Sales be damned, Land Rover has a haughty image to maintain.

They cannot afford to make what you want. It is not possible for Land Rover as a company at this time. I don't see why that's not sinking in. I know this is Discoweb, but you people aren't that fucking thick.

What they have built is precisely what they needed to build. They are carefully leaning into a more utility-based direction. If they'd started earlier and made up their damned mind about who they are many years ago, it would be a different story. If that Defender was to ride on a ladder frame and solid axles, it needed to be released in concert with the LR3, and they needed to share a platform; but even then they weren't strong enough as a brand to support it.

The Defender II should have been finished on the drawing board, the brand should have been bolstered for at least five years, and then it should have hit the shows as a concept for final refinement; but none of that can happen if they don't get their marketing muscles in shape.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

SCSL

Well-known member
Apr 27, 2005
4,144
152
They cannot afford to make what you want. It is not possible for Land Rover as a company at this time. I don't see why that's not sinking in. I know this is Discoweb, but you people aren't that fucking thick.
You keep repeating this, but I don’t find your arguments particularly convincing when weighed against the enduring success of the Wrangler, what we’ve seen so far of the Bronco, and what seems to be the consensus among LR brand enthusiasts - a demographic, I would remind you, that could afford an actual Defender at Pretender prices.
 
  • Like
Reactions: K-rover

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
You keep repeating this, but I don’t find your arguments particularly convincing when weighed against the enduring success of the Wrangler, what we’ve seen so far of the Bronco, and what seems to be the consensus among LR brand enthusiasts - a demographic, I would remind you, that could afford an actual Defender at Pretender prices.


Oh my god...

Dude. Land Rover isn't Jeep! The problem isn't the Defender. The problem is the Land Rover brand!

Do I need a bigger hammer? What the fuck. I'm not making an argument. I'm stating a fucking fact.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

ERover82

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2011
3,899
450
Darien Gap
I think what Kennith is trying to say is that the LR brand has become too distanced from their days of Series, Defender, Camel Trophy, Trek, G4, agriculture, utility, recreation, exploration, etc. defining the brand. People don't expect or shop the LR brand for that type of product in 2019. He expects them to lead with a transformation in brand marketing and hype building first.
 

K-rover

Well-known member
Jan 15, 2010
2,163
62
Raleigh, NC
None of this actually matters. Anyone like me gave up on Rover after the D2. Some even earlier. I will never own any LR newer than a D2. I have no interest in soft roaders. While the Lr3 and whatever the lastest greatest LR is, its still a compromise. Some of us just want an offroad toy and not a dual purpose daily/weekend suv. I guess our options are something old or Jeep.
 

SCSL

Well-known member
Apr 27, 2005
4,144
152
Oh my god...

Dude. Land Rover isn't Jeep! The problem isn't the Defender. The problem is the Land Rover brand!

Do I need a bigger hammer? What the fuck. I'm not making an argument. I'm stating a fucking fact.

Cheers,

Kennith
Well, I’m not known for being particular dense, and I’ve done pretty well for myself, so you may want to consider that the problem lies in your articulation of your position. Let’s not go negative. Sure , it’s DWeb fight club, but this is an important discussion. The problem, you say, is the Land Rover brand. A real Defender updated for 2020 could have saved the Land Rover brand. What LR needs is a vehicle that grounds the brand and makes that yuppie who buys the Rangie sport or Explorer feel good about being associated with the brand because it’s so unique and cool. That’s what LR used to have. Remember: all sales is about differentiation. Trust me.

Pretender dilutes and cannibalizes the brand (such as it is). JLR had one of the coolest vehicles ever made. Constant questions of “WOW, what is that?” And they walked away from it. Meanwhile doctors, real estate agents and executives paid good money for Hummers and G Wagons in order to stand out while all types of people, in the hundreds of thousands, buy Wranglers. But the folks who brought us the Land Rover Explorer couldn’t figure out a way to capitalize on that.

So, are you stating a fact? Do you need a bigger hammer? The issue isn’t that LR isn’t Jeep. The issue is that LR could have made a huge play to take Jeep on, head on, and won. Everyone wants to stand out. Something new and different. That could have been Defender. Instead we get to watch warranty work bankrupt JLR while Jeep makes a killing with a Defender 130. Jeep has a huge fan base. You suggest they’re just useful idiots. I suggest otherwise. Jeep knows this is their strength. LR never could understand this and squandered the precious resource that is brand evangelism.
 
  • Like
Reactions: K-rover

ERover82

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2011
3,899
450
Darien Gap
None of this actually matters. Anyone like me gave up on Rover after the D2. Some even earlier. I will never own any LR newer than a D2. I have no interest in soft roaders. While the Lr3 and whatever the lastest greatest LR is, its still a compromise. Some of us just want an offroad toy and not a dual purpose daily/weekend suv. I guess our options are something old or Jeep.

UTVs are the modern solution for your needs. We almost went that way, but I like cruising around town in something too, and I like classic Rovers, so we went the ROW 90 route.
 

K-rover

Well-known member
Jan 15, 2010
2,163
62
Raleigh, NC
UTVs are the modern solution for your needs. We almost went that way, but I like cruising around town in something too, and I like classic Rovers, so we went the ROW 90 route.
Thats why I love my D2. I can cruise it on the highway for long trips( at a whopping 9mpg) then stick it in low, engage the front and rear lockers and point it a rock ledge and not worry. Then drive it home at 70mph with AC, Nav, bluetooth and all that jazz... Id love to build an old Series truck with modern drivetrain and suspension.
On trip last week I had 3 different people give a thumbs up or tell me they like my truck. Not something you get in a Jeep unless you did something crazy!
 
  • Like
Reactions: jastutte

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
Well, I’m not known for being particular dense, and I’ve done pretty well for myself, so you may want to consider that the problem lies in your articulation of your position. Let’s not go negative. Sure , it’s DWeb fight club, but this is an important discussion. The problem, you say, is the Land Rover brand. A real Defender updated for 2020 could have saved the Land Rover brand. What LR needs is a vehicle that grounds the brand and makes that yuppie who buys the Rangie sport or Explorer feel good about being associated with the brand because it’s so unique and cool. That’s what LR used to have. Remember: all sales is about differentiation. Trust me.

Pretender dilutes and cannibalizes the brand (such as it is). JLR had one of the coolest vehicles ever made. Constant questions of “WOW, what is that?” And they walked away from it. Meanwhile doctors, real estate agents and executives paid good money for Hummers and G Wagons in order to stand out while all types of people, in the hundreds of thousands, buy Wranglers. But the folks who brought us the Land Rover Explorer couldn’t figure out a way to capitalize on that.

So, are you stating a fact? Do you need a bigger hammer? The issue isn’t that LR isn’t Jeep. The issue is that LR could have made a huge play to take Jeep on, head on, and won. Everyone wants to stand out. Something new and different. That could have been Defender. Instead we get to watch warranty work bankrupt JLR while Jeep makes a killing with a Defender 130. Jeep has a huge fan base. You suggest they’re just useful idiots. I suggest otherwise. Jeep knows this is their strength. LR never could understand this and squandered the precious resource that is brand evangelism.

Yes, I'm stating a fact. My articulation is perfectly fine, and I've communicated the point several different ways. My patience is currently compromised.

The Defender cannot save Land Rover. It cannot spearhead the brand, it cannot save the brand, and it cannot be supported by the brand.

You're on the track, but the train is going in the wrong direction.

The best thing that could happen to the Defender right now, today, in the real world, is a licensing of the intellectual property to another manufacturer. The smart move for Land Rover, if they were strong enough to support it, would have been a platform partnership with Mercedes/Steyer or Ford.

This company cannot survive in it's current configuration. They've made the correct move for the company in the vehicle design itself. Now, it's a waiting game to see if they can manage to complete the task and actually build a brand for themselves.

Right now, I can all but promise you that there is a small, but growing possibility of a Range Rover Discovery and a Range Rover Defender within the next ten years. Indeed, I'm almost certain it's been seriously discussed; because if it hasn't, they're more foolish than even I thought they were.

This idea that the Defender can come in and whisk Land Rover away on wings of coolness and dreams of wanderlust is the sort of free blowjob Land Rover does NOT need to be receiving. That's the crap that's been clogging up their head for years. They're not that cool, they never were that cool, and if they don't get their shit together, they never will be.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

SCSL

Well-known member
Apr 27, 2005
4,144
152
This idea that the Defender can come in and whisk Land Rover away on wings of coolness and dreams of wanderlust is the sort of free blowjob Land Rover does NOT need to be receiving. That's the crap that's been clogging up their head for years. They're not that cool, they never were that cool, and if they don't get their shit together, they never will be.

Cheers,

Kennith
I guess we’ll agree to disagree and I’ll respectively submit that your conclusions are 180 degree opposite from the direction LR should have taken. LR as a purely luxury Range Rover brand, absent the grounding of a true off road vehicle(s) means nothing differentiates them from Escalade or Land Cruiser and they lose. LR as a brand differentiated, the Range Rover that is a civilized, luxury version of a true and unique off road beast, is a critical differentiating factor that JLR takes to the bank. Or not, as we see today with the Pretender. I’m assuming you’re an engineer or a coder or somesuch because what you’re failing to appreciate is that all sales is about differentiation. Irrespective of your patience, you are looking at this problem with an IQ that far exceeds your EQ.
 

fishEH

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2009
6,927
201
Lake Villa, IL
Land Rover should have done better with the Discovery 5. It should have pushed into the outdoor enthusiast market. I mean, shit, the name of the vehicle is DISCOVERY!!! It practically begs to be marketed to people wanting to DISCOVER something. That would have put the brand in a better position to roll out a nice rugged Defender with 32" tires and a soft top.

But Kennith is still wrong I believe. Land Rover DID make up their mind a long time ago about who they are. Their brand, their image has nothing to do with their past, and that includes every previous owner of Defenders and Discoveries.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Eliot