A Better Discovery?

[Papillon]

There can be no argument that the automotive world is on the doorstep of radical change. Off-road vehicles are no different and new technologies are at hand.
I would like you to consider the Rivian R1S and would be interested in your feedback.

Here is a link to the website: https://products.rivian.com/suv/

Their website is a bit 'funky' but I think you will be able to find yourself around. I especially encourage you to view the 'about' page for greater background.

Lastly here is a preview/review by Motortrend: https://www.motortrend.com/news/2021-rivian-r1s-ev-electric-suv-first-look-review/

So what do you think? Are you ready to be 'charged-up' for a new adventure?

Papillon

 

[ERover82]

I don't give a single fuck until I know it doesn't ride on low-profile tires that completely negate any supposed off-road ability. Nothing else matters until that is established.

In this case "The 22-inch wheels with slim Pirelli tires are a compromise between modern aesthetics and off-road functionality, and they hide six-piston brakes up front." Well, you can fuck right off right there. Case closed.

 

[Tugela]

I'm more interested in Projekt Grenadier from Ineos Automotive, but I have been peripherally following the Rivian development. Electric power has advantages off-road and probably some vulnerabilities/limitations, as well. If Rivian can develop a 4x4 that can do what my dinosaur-powered Disco can do then I will be impressed. If the batteries catch on fire, are susceptible to water ingress, or the vehicle can't withstand the rigors of off-highway driving in other respects, then I will not be persuaded to buy one for that purpose.

 

[Blueboy]

The website for me was more then funky as none of the links worked.

So I’ll rely on the above post for some details.

Owning a ‘94 RRC LWB and a ‘96 D1 SD no doubt I’m not a potential buyer.

However my opinion is it is fugly!

And based on the above not very worthwhile off-road where I still take my Rovers.

While it is evident manufacturers are going to how fast they can make a SUV, it is a fucking stupid concept.

If you want to go fast, buy a fast car like a Porsche, BMW, Corvette, GT 350 whatever.

As fast as necessary as slow as possible comes to mind when in my Rovers.

 

[kennith]

I'm more interested in Projekt Grenadier from Ineos Automotive, but I have been peripherally following the Rivian development. Electric power has advantages off-road and probably some vulnerabilities/limitations, as well. If Rivian can develop a 4x4 that can do what my dinosaur-powered Disco can do then I will be impressed. If the batteries catch on fire, are susceptible to water ingress, or the vehicle can't withstand the rigors of off-highway driving in other respects, then I will not be persuaded to buy one for that purpose.

The Ineos site looks more like a wish list than anything else, but maybe I'm missing something.

As for the Rivian, it's not as if electric off-highway vehicles are new. The stuff can take incredible abuse, but just how far can that level of durability and longevity be miniaturized on their budget? It's easy to make a two ton electric motor that will run anywhere for a kajillion miles. It's not as easy to make something smaller that individual consumers can actually afford for personal use.

I don't know why more attention hasn't been paid to miniaturized diesel-electric power. That's what the essentially what the Volt was supposed to be originally, but that's not what we got.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[Tugela]

You're right about the Ineos website. It's more of a story and a vision than a clear plan of what they are doing. They tend to use social media more to communicate about the project development. Last I saw they had secured a factory in Slovakia and hired a bunch of engineers from Mercedes Benz. The company has been very deliberate about soliciting public opinion on the design and functionality of the vehicle. I don't know if it's still live, but for a while they had a detailed survey where you could give input on engine preferences, what you would use it for, how much you would pay, etc.

 

[kennith]

You're right about the Ineos website. It's more of a story and a vision than a clear plan of what they are doing. They tend to use social media more to communicate about the project development. Last I saw they had secured a factory in Slovakia and hired a bunch of engineers from Mercedes Benz. The company has been very deliberate about soliciting public opinion on the design and functionality of the vehicle. I don't know if it's still live, but for a while they had a detailed survey where you could give input on engine preferences, what you would use it for, how much you would pay, etc.

Well, considering their privacy policy, the referenced policies, and the nature of the mandated questions in that survey, I won't be taking it. I was a little excited there to have some input, but it was quickly dampened. That's a shame. Clever paperwork, though.

I wish people would have sense enough to take their crap off of Facebook and put it on their website. You can have both. Copy and paste. Done. That's the professional way to do things.

They pretty much lost my interest, unfortunately.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[ERover82]

Well, considering their privacy policy, the referenced policies, and the nature of the mandated questions in that survey, I won't be taking it. I was a little excited there to have some input, but it was quickly dampened. That's a shame. Clever paperwork, though.

I wish people would have sense enough to take their crap off of Facebook and put it on their website. You can have both. Copy and paste. Done. That's the professional way to do things.

They pretty much lost my interest, unfortunately.

Cheers,

Kennith

Haven't looked at the site yet. What in the policies did you find offensive?

 

[kennith]

Haven't looked at the site yet. What in the policies did you find offensive?

It's like something I would have written. Within the words assuring safety are measures to allow them more freedom.

By itself, that's not a big deal; but that document is too good. Associated with a startup, it's a red flag for me. I'm thoroughly impressed with the document, but if you see me smiling while reading a contract, it's probably a good idea to do a little more research before you sign. A Ferengi ain't got shit on a Kennith.

That doesn't mean they're bad guys, but it does mean heightened potential is there for abuse. It's not worth the risk just to tell them you want a ladder frame and a damned diesel engine. That's my gripe. Buying the car or supporting it is immaterial; it's the survey that bothers me.

At the very least, they don't need any of that data to build the car they want to build. Ladder frame, solid axles, diesel engine, manual and automatic options, minimal electronics... The formula is not rocket science. The survey only exists for marketing purposes.

Again, I'm not saying they can't or won't make the car and be honest. They may well do so.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[DiscoHasBeen]

The Bollinger B1 is an all-electric truck with 360 horsepower and up to 200 miles of range

Built for — and in — the great outdoors

www.google.com

 

[ERover82]

The Bollinger B1 is an all-electric truck with 360 horsepower and up to 200 miles of range

Built for — and in — the great outdoors

www.google.com

Now we're talking.

 

[ERover82]

By itself, that's not a big deal; but that document is too good. Associated with a startup, it's a red flag for me.

"INEOS is one of the world's largest chemical producers and a significant player in the oil and gas market. "

 

[SGaynor]

The Bollinger B1 is an all-electric truck with 360 horsepower and up to 200 miles of range

Built for — and in — the great outdoors

www.google.com

Awesome. So when you are 50 miles in the middle of nowhere, are you going to whip out the solar charger and wait for a month?

200 miles on flat smooth pavement is a whole lot different than 200 miles of rough terrain.

IMO unless you are carrying whole batteries, and have the ability to swap them, an all electric off-road vehicle is a joke. Actually, it's the Ultimate Mall-crawler, with virtue signaling as a bonus.

 

[ERover82]

Awesome. So when you are 50 miles in the middle of nowhere, are you going to whip out the solar charger and wait for a month?

200 miles on flat smooth pavement is a whole lot different than 200 miles of rough terrain.

IMO unless you are carrying whole batteries, and have the ability to swap them, an all electric off-road vehicle is a joke. Actually, it's the Ultimate Mall-crawler, with virtue signaling as a bonus.

It was never intended for overland travel. I look at it like the Series 1, a farm implement with real recreational off-road potential, that may eventually be adapted for increasingly further outings if the interest is there.

 

[SGaynor]

Having worked on Li-ion battery technology, my view of electric powered cars using batteries is extremely dim. While great for short trips, there are way too many down sides to battery supplied electric power for cars - most notably the short range and high cost of replacing the batteries, which are only guaranteed a 10 year life. Who wants to pay $10K to replace a battery after ten years? ALL of our DIs and IIs would probably be in the scrap heap by now if they were electric.

I remember when I first heard Ford folks talking about the expected life time of electric vehicles, I thought, "No wonder they love it. No one will buy a used car over 8 years old." Who would pay $10-20K knowing that in just a couple of years (before the vehicle is paid off on a 4-year loan), you stand a good chance of having the battery die and facing a $10k bill?

Until a portable and quick energy source is found to supply electric vehicles (ie, hydrogen fuel cells), that is robust, electric vehicles will be niche - and definitely off my list of vehicles to own.

/Rant off

 

[kennith]

"INEOS is one of the world's largest chemical producers and a significant player in the oil and gas market. "

I want to live in a world where they were set up by Land Rover to build the new Defender in the shadow of plain sight.

Yeah, it occurred to me later they didn't exactly have to hire a new team of lawyers if that's the case. The funny thing is, they seem very familiar to me, and I can't quite peg why. I may have gone somewhere for one of their interests in the past.

Regardless, the survey isn't going to steal your lunch money. If you've still got a Yahoo account or an Android phone you've already stepped in much worse than that.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[kennith]

Awesome. So when you are 50 miles in the middle of nowhere, are you going to whip out the solar charger and wait for a month?

200 miles on flat smooth pavement is a whole lot different than 200 miles of rough terrain.

IMO unless you are carrying whole batteries, and have the ability to swap them, an all electric off-road vehicle is a joke. Actually, it's the Ultimate Mall-crawler, with virtue signaling as a bonus.

They've got the right idea, though. Step one to making someone like me feel better about an electric vehicle is removing all the features that I don't need.

Step two is giving me knobs, switches, and shapes I'm used to seeing already.

It looks a bit like a kid's drawing of a Defender/LM002 hybrid built by Jeremy Clarkson, but there's nothing wrong with that. It looks very much like a Cat pickup concept I did in an early version of Corel, actually.

Realistically, that looks like it's headed more toward the side by side market than the road.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[Papillon]

Having worked on Li-ion battery technology, my view of electric powered cars using batteries is extremely dim. While great for short trips, there are way too many down sides to battery supplied electric power for cars - most notably the short range and high cost of replacing the batteries, which are only guaranteed a 10 year life. Who wants to pay $10K to replace a battery after ten years? ALL of our DIs and IIs would probably be in the scrap heap by now if they were electric.

I remember when I first heard Ford folks talking about the expected life time of electric vehicles, I thought, "No wonder they love it. No one will buy a used car over 8 years old." Who would pay $10-20K knowing that in just a couple of years (before the vehicle is paid off on a 4-year loan), you stand a good chance of having the battery die and facing a $10k bill?

Until a portable and quick energy source is found to supply electric vehicles (ie, hydrogen fuel cells), that is robust, electric vehicles will be niche - and definitely off my list of vehicles to own.

/Rant off

Since the heart of any electric vehicle is its battery pack, I too have similar concerns. As far as distance goes Rivian offers options of up to 400 miles with its 'megapack' (the largest so far in the industry) so I'm not as concerned here. That said, however, your concern about the high cost of battery replacement is cause for worry. Durability (especially for an off-road vehicle) is also of prime importance.

With these things in mind, I searched the internet and found the following article about Rivian's battery packs: https://www.teslarati.com/rivian-battery-lab-irvine-california-megapack-production/

I think I am now more comfortable with the durability and range questions, but battery pack longevity and its replacement cost remain an issue for me.

Thank you for your feedback.

Papillon

 

[kennith]

Since the heart of any electric vehicle is its battery pack, I too have similar concerns. As far as distance goes Rivian offers options of up to 400 miles with its 'megapack' (the largest so far in the industry) so I'm not as concerned here. That said, however, your concern about the high cost of battery replacement is cause for worry. Durability (especially for an off-road vehicle) is also of prime importance.

With these things in mind, I searched the internet and found the following article about Rivian's battery packs: https://www.teslarati.com/rivian-battery-lab-irvine-california-megapack-production/

I think I am now more comfortable with the durability and range questions, but battery pack longevity and its replacement cost remain an issue for me.

Thank you for your feedback.

Papillon

I thought the Feds mandated that electric and hybrid battery packs needed to be warranted for ten years. Is that not the case?

Regardless, I don't see why you couldn't just have an inverter generator in the back and a couple of cans of fuel, just in case. Charge it up overnight at camp and get a bit more range.

It would also be nice if you could snap modular batteries into dedicated, owner-accessible areas to boost range temporarily. Obviously you can't just go in there and mess with the main battery, but it would be possible to create a mounting point somewhere that the owner could access safely, if required.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[LRflip]

that looks like somebody won a contest at legoland.

The Bollinger B1 is an all-electric truck with 360 horsepower and up to 200 miles of range

Built for — and in — the great outdoors

www.google.com