A Better Discovery?

LRflip

Well-known member
Oct 8, 2006
5,741
25
none of your fucking business
It would also be nice if you could snap modular batteries into dedicated, owner-accessible areas to boost range temporarily. Obviously you can't just go in there and mess with the main battery, but it would be possible to create a mounting point somewhere that the owner could access safely, if required.

Cheers,

Kennith

This is the retarded modern equivalent of Gerry Cans... EV Overlanders riding around with dead batteries strapped to their roof racks along with picks and shovels and RTT's...

I'm so glad the twheel never took off.

I can't wait.
 

Papillon

Well-known member
Dec 19, 2005
97
6
I thought the Feds mandated that electric and hybrid battery packs needed to be warranted for ten years. Is that not the case?

Regardless, I don't see why you couldn't just have an inverter generator in the back and a couple of cans of fuel, just in case. Charge it up overnight at camp and get a bit more range.

It would also be nice if you could snap modular batteries into dedicated, owner-accessible areas to boost range temporarily. Obviously you can't just go in there and mess with the main battery, but it would be possible to create a mounting point somewhere that the owner could access safely, if required.

Cheers,

Kennith

Kennith, do you mean something like this? "Rivian patents “removable auxiliary battery” for its R1T electric pickup truck"


I must say Rivian is forward thinking.

"Federal regulations mandate that an EV’s battery pack, arguably its most costly component, be covered for at least eight years or 100,000 miles. For its part, Hyundai extends this to lifetime coverage on the new-for-2019 Kona Electric.

Automakers’ warranties also include specific coverage against corrosion. However, this applies to body panels that have been completely “rusted through,” and not to mere paint bubbling. In addition, many manufacturers include roadside assistance programs with value-added features that rival the benefits of auto-club memberships.

THE FINE PRINT
Be aware, however, that every new-vehicle warranty contains exceptions and exclusions. For example, some automakers only cover an EV’s battery pack against total failure, while others, including BMW, Chevrolet, Nissan, Tesla (Model 3) and Volkswagen will replace it if it reaches a specified reduced capacity percentage, usually 60-70%, while under warranty.

Some brands will transfer whatever remains of the original warranty to a second owner, while others may impose limitations on this. For example, the 10-year powertrain warranty on Hyundai, and Kia models applies only to the original buyer, with a subsequent owner receiving whatever remains of five years’ coverage from the date on which it was originally sold."

Source: https://insideevs.com/news/342221/which-electric-cars-offer-the-best-warranties/

There is no word yet on Rivian's warranty

Papillon
 
Last edited:

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
Kennith, do you mean something like this? "Rivian patents “removable auxiliary battery” for its R1T electric pickup truck"


I must say Rivian is forward thinking.

"Federal regulations mandate that an EV’s battery pack, arguably its most costly component, be covered for at least eight years or 100,000 miles. For its part, Hyundai extends this to lifetime coverage on the new-for-2019 Kona Electric.

Automakers’ warranties also include specific coverage against corrosion. However, this applies to body panels that have been completely “rusted through,” and not to mere paint bubbling. In addition, many manufacturers include roadside assistance programs with value-added features that rival the benefits of auto-club memberships.

THE FINE PRINT
Be aware, however, that every new-vehicle warranty contains exceptions and exclusions. For example, some automakers only cover an EV’s battery pack against total failure, while others, including BMW, Chevrolet, Nissan, Tesla (Model 3) and Volkswagen will replace it if it reaches a specified reduced capacity percentage, usually 60-70%, while under warranty.

Some brands will transfer whatever remains of the original warranty to a second owner, while others may impose limitations on this. For example, the 10-year powertrain warranty on Hyundai, and Kia models applies only to the original buyer, with a subsequent owner receiving whatever remains of five years’ coverage from the date on which it was originally sold."

Source: https://insideevs.com/news/342221/which-electric-cars-offer-the-best-warranties/

There is no word yet on Rivian's warranty

Papillon

Interesting. They've gone in a similar direction to a removable battery pack I designed a while back. I was thinking smaller and modular, so you can have as many or as few as you like, but whatever. That's better than nothing.

They'll never sell an electric truck without a competitive warranty, though. I expect it will be reasonable.

If it's not, they're idiots. On the bright side, having a hard point in the rear for a battery allows much easier after-market options if they're successful.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

SGaynor

Well-known member
Dec 6, 2006
7,148
162
52
Bristol, TN
How many modern internal combustion engines just completely shit the bed at 15 years?

IF the feds mandate 8 years, and the OEMs give 10, but you KNOW they will just die (it's what Li-ion batteries do), why in the hell would you drop $10k+ on an 8 year old vehicle knowing there's a high likelihood that you'll have to shell out another $10k in the next 2-4 years?

I bought my Tacoma for $14k ~4.5 years ago; at the time it was 12 years old with 154k miles. It is now 16 years old with 260k. major repairs? The fuse block. Rebuilt the steering pump (the rack is leaking but not terribly). A tie rod end, but I wouldn't call that major after 14 years. That's it

For some reason I haven't had to replace the engine...not twice or even once.

At this point, with an EV I'd be looking at a $7-10k battery replacement. For the second time.
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
In those four years many will have have spent four grand on iPhones. What's ten for ten more years of transportation? :ROFLMAO:

Honestly, though, when this stuff gets a bit easier to swap, and if the electric motors and computers hold up over time... Ten grand for a ten year battery to keep it all working isn't really all that insane; it actually begins to make quite a bit of sense for the individual consumer.

The problem is what it'll do to the planet and all it's inhabitants.

We needed new battery technology first; but now the factories have been built, the money spent, the returns calculated, and mass production has begun. It's always the same with people these days: They want it right now, instead of at the right time.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

jim-00-4.6

Well-known member
Sep 30, 2005
2,037
6
61
Genesee, CO USA
Having worked on Li-ion battery technology, my view of electric powered cars using batteries is extremely dim. While great for short trips, there are way too many down sides to battery supplied electric power for cars...
Last week, we took a road trip to Vegas from Denver.
Happily, I have a gasoline-powered automobile.
If I had a cunt-wagon, I mean Tesla, I would have made it to Colorado's western border and run out of battery.
And charged it where, in Fruita Colorado?

Driving a Tesla is like wearing an ankle bracelet while on parole, you can't leave the state.
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
This is the retarded modern equivalent of Gerry Cans... EV Overlanders riding around with dead batteries strapped to their roof racks along with picks and shovels and RTT's...

I'm so glad the twheel never took off.

I can't wait.

In the future, two men will be in the middle of nowhere, and they will realize they're low on juice.

One will say to the other: "Switch to reserve power and reroute all drive to the rear axle."

They will both have a laugh, and continue on their way without a hassle as the second man deploys the roof's solar panel for good measure.

That will be a good day, but it's a long way off.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

Blue

Well-known member
Mar 26, 2004
10,043
856
AZ
In this case "The 22-inch wheels with slim Pirelli tires are a compromise between modern aesthetics and off-road functionality, and they hide six-piston brakes up front." Well, you can fuck right off right there. Case closed.

Well shit, negro, that’s all you had to say.
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: stu454 and SGaynor

Papillon

Well-known member
Dec 19, 2005
97
6
We've had a lot of discussion about the battery and electric vehicles in general... But what about the off-road performance of an electric?

Consider...

Let’s Talk About Taking Electrics Off-Road
Because the layout of electric vehicles isn’t predetermined by the fixed locations of major mechanical components, designers of them are free to optimize the location of the big, heavy parts. One of the reasons Teslas handle so well is because, like the Rivian concepts, they house their batteries under the floor of the cabin, lowering the center of gravity as far as possible. Those volatile batteries need to be protected from crashes, debris, and the elements, so the resulting armor also doubles as both chassis, and skidplate.

Extend the merits of that skateboard powertrain/chassis to off-roading. Rivian claims the R1T will have up to 14.2 inches of ground clearance. Keeping the center of gravity below the floor will help keep it stable and safe over really challenging obstacles. Like other electric vehicles, those batteries are sealed, so they can go underwater. Rivian therefor is able to claim an impressive 3.2 foot maximum wading depth.

Powering each wheel through its own electric motor, the Rivians will also forego traditional four-wheel drive. This is actually the most promising thing about them, so hear me out. On an internal combustion engine truck, 4WD locks the speed of the front and rear driveshafts together. Without driveshafts or even axle differentials, a four-motor electric like this one can choose to replicate the function of locking differentials, or even go further, and actively portion power to the wheels with the most traction. This could massively boost such a vehicle’s ability to make the most of low-traction situations, and elevate the performance of such a vehicle to a whole new level.

Well, what do you think now? A Better Discovery?

Full article: https://www.outsideonline.com/2371726/electric-trucks-rivian-new-analysis
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
Electric can be outstanding off-pavement. The problem is whether or not that's how they'll put it together.

There are several ways to set up the chassis. Each has benefits and drawbacks. There are also many ways for them to make poor component or system decisions. Electric is not new in those conditions; nor is it new in heavy use. It's been the choice for reliability in the past going back well over a century; but these were motors built differently than you'll see in say, a Tesla.

If it's built right and designed right, and if it's got the range (minus inconvenience of potential charging events) there is absolutely no reason an electric vehicle can't handle everything you throw at it and much more.

It could pretty much be made all but indestructible. The question is, how to make that happen for a cost an individual consumer will pay.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

ERover82

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2011
3,899
450
Darien Gap
It’s all very promising, but engineers have been aware of the potential for ages. However, it still won’t matter one bit if they’re shipping it with 19”+ wheels and huge brakes. It’ll be like a Range Rover, highly capable in theory, even in demos, but not in reality.
 

coop74

Well-known member
Dec 10, 2015
287
7
Alcoa TN
There can be no argument that the automotive world is on the doorstep of radical change. Off-road vehicles are no different and new technologies are at hand.
I would like you to consider the Rivian R1S and would be interested in your feedback.

Here is a link to the website: https://products.rivian.com/suv/

Their website is a bit 'funky' but I think you will be able to find yourself around. I especially encourage you to view the 'about' page for greater background.

Lastly here is a preview/review by Motortrend: https://www.motortrend.com/news/2021-rivian-r1s-ev-electric-suv-first-look-review/

So what do you think? Are you ready to be 'charged-up' for a new adventure?

Papillon
someone will make a fortune when the make a kit to put electric into the current crop of discovery vehicles. with a huge space to the rear and under the chasis the Disco platform for adventure travel would be the perfect blank slate.

Add a small generator to run to recharge the battery like a hybrid and it would sell like hot cakes.
 

4Runner

Well-known member
May 24, 2007
660
110
Boise Idaho
I know this is taking some liberties, but if they can build a real one that’s half as tuff as my sons RC short course truck, I would buy it. It’s kind of the same technology. Sort of.
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
I know this is taking some liberties, but if they can build a real one that’s half as tuff as my sons RC short course truck, I would buy it. It’s kind of the same technology. Sort of.

Somehow I interpreted that incorrectly the first time around, so here's a revision:

It pretty much is the same (maybe a touch closer to a modern, expensive power drill than an R/C car). You need more juice, though. Get too many cells in one place, and heat becomes a problem, which makes reliability a problem and creates safety issues. Then you need computers to manage all their various interactions, because nothing works perfectly.

It's very easy to make an electric car, but not so easy to make one you can sell to someone.

You can absolutely line up a bunch of car batteries and make your Land Rover electric, but you won't go far and it'll weigh... A lot; so lithium is used. Shit. Now it's expensive as hell... 🤣

If it wasn't for that nasty square cube law and energy density, it wouldn't be so tough, but right now the materials we have in mass production just plain aren't good enough to get the best out of the idea. They will be eventually, we just got off on the wrong foot, so it'll take three times as long to get it right. I don't think we were ready for production yet.

Another ten years, but if Musk hadn't done it someone less skilled would have; so I'm glad he's out there.

Cheers,

Kennith
 
Last edited:

4Runner

Well-known member
May 24, 2007
660
110
Boise Idaho
Yeah. That statement was kind of off the cuff, though I am impressed by the beatings that the brushless motor and electronics take from that crowd. Usually it’s a suspension member that breaks before the electronics. I know that’s really an oversimplification of things.
 

SGaynor

Well-known member
Dec 6, 2006
7,148
162
52
Bristol, TN
If it wasn't for that nasty square cube law and energy density, it wouldn't be so tough, but right now the materials we have in mass production just plain aren't good enough to get the best out of the idea. They will be eventually, we just got off on the wrong foot, so it'll take three times as long to get it right. I don't think we were ready for production yet.

Another ten years, but if Musk hadn't done it someone less skilled would have; so I'm glad he's out there.
Yep, energy density is the killer. (The reason Ford didn't make electric cars? 20 lead acid battery weigh a ton. Literally)

Lithium is the best choice for a battery because it is the smallest ion you can use to transport energy (The smallest is hydrogen (H+), but it's got issues (flys away, corrosive, etc.)). The best power density would be a Li/air battery, but then you are using lithium metal, which burns like a mother.💥🔥 So, it probably won't be widely used. Any power density improvements will likely be incremental (more Li/g of cathode material (Li metal is 100%); better battery design).

Rant on -

Musk is a huckster and doesn't know shit about making batteries better.

He started out using 1990's laptop battery technology (18650 cells from Panasonic), strung a bunch together (~7000) and called it the greatest battery ever. Bullshit. They are using slightly bigger batteries now, but the tech is all from Panasonic - who is the one that actually makes the batteries for Tesla, not Tesla themselves. It's like starting a car company and raving about YOUR motors, when you are just buying them from GM. Remember a few years back when he "released" all those patents to help the world make better batteries? They were all bullshit. Which is why he gave them away. Great PR though.

Oh, and his claim that the Gigafactory was going to drive down the cost of batteries to make them ubiquitous? More bullshit. Obama gave away $1.5B to boost Li-ion battery manufacturing in the US in 2009 (not to mention the additional $1.5B invested by various companies as part of the grant match). Almost all of those facilities are closed because there was no demand. That capacity was a hell of a lot bigger than his battery plant.

(More Musk bullshit: Solar panels that look like shingles. Cost is ~$20K for 1/2 your roof (the side that faces the sun), and ROI is about 22 years; you get a 25 year warranty. Oh, and it's been done before; he just copied the idea, and they still cost a pile of $ - so not some kind of savant.)

- Rant off.
 

SGaynor

Well-known member
Dec 6, 2006
7,148
162
52
Bristol, TN
Want to see something frightening?

Go to this link, page 30 (slide 22). The picture on the left was a motor from a 2(?) man sub the SEALs use. They did a test where they shorted out the battery in the center (it had about 40, IIRC). The motor caught fire and burned for over an hour at 1200 *C. :oops: I saw the NSWC give a presentation on it and they showed a video - the SEALs don't get paid enough...

Lithium fires are no joke. (In a former life, we heated one up and it exothermed ~600 *C when it got to around *250 C. It probably went higher, but the thermocouple melted.)
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
Lord knows I've gone on about the problems with lithium elsewhere, but people won't hear it. This is not something upon which we should have leaned so hard so quickly. If people think oil is a problem... There's more than one way to fuck up a planet, after all.

Let's unpack that, a bit. We get oil, and in the process it is used to build the car, manufacture many of the parts, equip the whole fucking life of the person who buys the car, provide medical support as the daughter who caused the purchase was born, and then it's used to fuel and maintain the car. After that, a fair amount is recycled to make other products. It's a damned ecological wet dream.

Now... Let's build an electric car, and see how far one tiny hole in the ground gets us....

Mining needed to catch up first. That's where the money should have gone to begin with; extraction/production of the element itself. The intervening time would have been better spent on competing technologies. Gasoline didn't just pop into an empty field. It fought electric, diesel, and steam when it was introduced, and it wasn't nearly as easy to get as today. It's matured technology.

It takes a very, very long time to replace something like that, but we rushed.

On the bright side, Panasonic does indeed make what I'd probably say are the best cells. To be fair, though, that company doesn't know how to build something that isn't the best at it's price-point. That's kind of their thing.

Material science and better computer modeling really needs to be the biggest thing right now. We just plain don't have what we need, on-hand, to take the next big step in mobile energy storage. We need new stuff. It's time to break carbon down and make it work more for us than it already does. It's time to imagine the insane, again, and then actually try to make the stuff happen. It's time to ask stupid questions like this without thinking first:

Can we make electric have the same industrial and ecological benefits of our current oil-based industries? Can hydrogen and carbon be used more efficiently in that manner?

Ask
the questions that might make you look stupid. That's how limits are pushed. Take twenty years and figure it out, pit the ideas against one another, combine them... A little leadership and individual incentive goes a long way.

I think everything Musk has done until this point was all a slow roll toward space. Now, that's extremely important; I'd love to see orbital mining, but Tesla was never a car company. That doesn't mean I wouldn't try one (they're darn near tailor-made for rural areas), but he doesn't actually have to run a profitable business there.

In the process, he has no choice but to find better ways to deploy this stuff. Even if the cars aren't overly special, they're the only cars of their kind with any real success. That's both a good thing and a bad thing.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

SCSL

Well-known member
Apr 27, 2005
4,144
152
The cool thing about electric OHV's is that when the batteries spontaneously combust, you can roast marshmallows.