Another good one on LRF

robertf

Well-known member
Jan 22, 2006
4,778
354
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Too many pages to keep up. Did he claim others work as his own? And how is that guy able to pimp his bumpers in every bumper thread over there?
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
That guy is a jackass.

1: He offered to copy other bumpers.

It's okay to end up with similar products when there aren't too many ways to do things, but it's not okay to deliberately copy a product to sell at a lower price point. He's come right out and offered to rip people off.

That's bullshit.

2: He suggested that his bumpers are stronger than all the others because they are thicker.

If he has "metal in his blood" He should know that engineering matters more than thickness. Engineering is all about elegance. The object is to do the most with the least. Any ham-handed idiot can do "some" with a too much.

It's very possible to make something that can't properly support it's own mass under stress, and something that is too stiff for the frame to which it is meant to attach. It takes brains to put these things together properly.

3: He seems to love his welds.

They may be effective, they may not, but I've seen more than one person do a better job the first time they put on a mask. Just because you are going to use a grinder doesn't mean you should do a shit job.

I can't keep my left hand steady enough to keep a perfect bead, but I can lay one down cleaner than his. He's also leaving huge gaps, and contends that welds are stronger than metal...

He doesn't understand that there are many definitions of "strong".

4: He seems to think that people who either can't or won't weld don't know what they are talking about.

This is not always true, especially in this industry. The people who pay a person to create a product can sometimes be the ones who know what works and what doesn't. These people clearly didn't want to weld their own bumper, whether or not they were able.

Just because they don't want to buy his offering doesn't discount their observations. I purchase welded products and pay people to weld all the time. That doesn't mean I can't do it. It means I won't do it.

I don't change my own oil, either.

...And who the hell is We_Go_Up? He needs to get off that guy's dick. He's missing the point that a poorly constructed bumper is a life-threatening device.

There's no point complaining about it here, though. It's not as if anyone is listening.:rofl:

Cheers,

Kennith
 

p m

Administrator
Staff member
Apr 19, 2004
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La Jolla, CA
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Damn that thread is long.
By the way, Brett - what's wrong with chain for vehicle recovery? (as long as it is not used as a bungee strap).
 

fishEH

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2009
6,927
201
Lake Villa, IL
Damn that thread is long.
By the way, Brett - what's wrong with chain for vehicle recovery? (as long as it is not used as a bungee strap).

Chain can be used, though it's not my first choice. I've used it before at work and am still alive. It's fine when used properly. But do you really think for a second that the tards buying those POS bumpers have any clue about safe recovery practices??

Chain is my absolute last resort. A lot of recovery situations require some sort of tug which places a shock load on the chain. No thanks.
I don't even use my strap since I bought my Kinetic Rope.
Chain has it's place, just not in my recovery bag. It's heavy as shit for it's weight rating. Doesn't handle shock loading. I keep a short length with me for dragging logs/trees off the trail. That's what it's good for IMO.
 
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DiscoPhoto

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Jul 23, 2012
2,581
76
Vermont
Chain shouldn't be used because it CAN fail and will show no signs of warning when it's about to. At least with straps they start to disintegrate and wear over time, you know to replace them. Chains also provide crazy projectiles and have no place in recovery anymore.

The thread is hilarious, robert is a douche.
 

ArmyRover

Well-known member
Dec 4, 2007
3,230
1
Augusta, GA
Too many pages to keep up. Did he claim others work as his own? And how is that guy able to pimp his bumpers in every bumper thread over there?


He claimed he built a Bronco internal cage a posted pictures that turned out to be someone elses work at the other end of the country. Claimed he clicked on the wrong photo when he was downloading the pic off of a website. Never returned with pics of his cage work though.

The reason he gets away with it is the mods (me in this case) don't read every single thread and post. I'm getting tired of it though to be honest and I think he is going to join the ban.
 

p m

Administrator
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Apr 19, 2004
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www.3rj.org
Chain can be used, though it's not my first choice. I've used it before at work and am still alive. It's fine when used properly. But do you really think for a second that the tards buying those POS bumpers have any clue about safe recovery practices??

Chain is my absolute last resort. A lot of recovery situations require some sort of tug which places a shock load on the chain. No thanks.
I don't even use my strap since I bought my Kinetic Rope.
Chain has it's place, just not in my recovery bag. It's heavy as shit for it's weight rating. Doesn't handle shock loading. I keep a short length with me for dragging logs/trees off the trail. That's what it's good for IMO.
I brought it up here because I didn't want to get into any of the LRF shitstorm.
I've been leery of chains until about 12 years ago when Bill Gill dragged my brother's jeep off its belly with a grade-80 chain without any drama. The chain, compared to steel cable, practically does not stretch, and supposed to fail in a way more like synthetic rope (I haven't seen chain breaking, so I can't claim knowledge). Chain is a lot cheaper than a good quality recovery rope, and it doesn't get fucked up when someone you're recovering runs over it (I probably discarded about $150 in recovery straps damaged this way).
On the other hand, your words somewhat reflect the type of off-roading you do - more mud than rocks.
 

fishEH

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2009
6,927
201
Lake Villa, IL
I brought it up here because I didn't want to get into any of the LRF shitstorm.
I've been leery of chains until about 12 years ago when Bill Gill dragged my brother's jeep off its belly with a grade-80 chain without any drama. The chain, compared to steel cable, practically does not stretch, and supposed to fail in a way more like synthetic rope (I haven't seen chain breaking, so I can't claim knowledge). Chain is a lot cheaper than a good quality recovery rope, and it doesn't get fucked up when someone you're recovering runs over it (I probably discarded about $150 in recovery straps damaged this way).
On the other hand, your words somewhat reflect the type of off-roading you do - more mud than rocks.

Dragging someone highcentered off a rock is totally different than yanking someone out that's buried frame deep in mud/snow.
Chain absolutely is NOT cheaper. Not for a quality one, and it still won't have the rating of a strap.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/DAYTON-Lifting-Chain-5WRR3?Pid=search
http://www.amazon.com/Grade-8x25-Binder-Chains-Clevis/dp/B0029X5LA0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382719556&sr=8-1&keywords=3%2F8+chain
http://www.amazon.com/ARB-ARB705US-...&qid=1382719325&sr=8-2&keywords=kinetic+strap
When you factor in weight, strength, and cost a recovery strap wins EVERY time.
Tell the people you wheel with to stop being tards and running your strap over. You should have a spotter directing both trucks anyways to prevent that from happening.

And yeah, you can't have discussions like this on LRF because everyone is a damned mouth breather over there.
 

Mike_Rupp

Well-known member
Mar 26, 2004
3,604
0
Mercer Island, WA
I'm curious why you wouldn't winch someone who was buried in mud / snow? I know that winching takes longer, but especially in the case of mud, I prefer the slow & easy approach to a strap.
 

Ballah06

Well-known member
Jan 21, 2007
5,633
15
Savannah, GA
I'm curious why you wouldn't winch someone who was buried in mud / snow? I know that winching takes longer, but especially in the case of mud, I prefer the slow & easy approach to a strap.

Not a fan of chain myself either and agree with you on winching. Most times I would opt for winching (with a snatch block if need be) vs. using a kinetic rope. The latter is definitely quicker, and I think can be used if you can clearly see the stuck vehicle needs a bit of a jerk to get it out. Winching is more controlled and allows for fine adjustments if need be, IMO. All in all I think it just depends on a specific situation. Also, I suppose the yanking can be used if no winch is around and the strap does not warrant use, due to a higher desired elasticity.
Bottom line though, I personally avoid the use of chain (unless as stated earlier I am dragging a tree or some piece of gear out). Chains are heavy and offer no benefit over tow strap/rope; quite the opposite. Also, they are not that cheap as cited above.
 
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DiscoPhoto

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Jul 23, 2012
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In my experience, winching is fine as long as you're nears a tree that you can anchor to. People playing in a swamp or mud field often get recovered via kinetic ropes(there are far better ones out there than ARB's "snatch strap") as it's great to have that dynamic energy to get unstuck.
 

garrett

Well-known member
Jun 18, 2004
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Middleburg, VA
www.blackdogmobility.com
Damn that thread is long.
By the way, Brett - what's wrong with chain for vehicle recovery? (as long as it is not used as a bungee strap).

1) There's never a good reason to use chain unless you've got nothing else around. But that shouldn't be the case anyhow.
2) Chain is heavy, heavy equals mass, mass equals energy when it breaks.
3) It's not very strong compared to quality straps that are lighter (think mass again here) and stronger.
4) Chain does stretch. More than people think (3-4%+).
5) Chain doesn't give any indication when it's about to break. When it does, hit the deck boy.
6) Again it's heavy, bulky and not as useful as a quality strap. It could ONLY he used in a static situation, but far too often you see some Billy Bob redneck using it in a dynamic situation and that's not cool.

The only thing chain is better for than a strap is dragging trees out of the woods with.
 

DiscoPhoto

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Jul 23, 2012
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1) There's never a good reason to use chain unless you've got nothing else around. But that shouldn't be the case anyhow.
2) Chain is heavy, heavy equals mass, mass equals energy when it breaks.
3) It's not very strong compared to quality straps that are lighter (think mass again here) and stronger.
4) Chain does stretch. More than people think (3-4%+).
5) Chain doesn't give any indication when it's about to break. When it does, hit the deck boy.
6) Again it's heavy, bulky and not as useful as a quality strap. It could ONLY he used in a static situation, but far too often you see some Billy Bob redneck using it in a dynamic situation and that's not cool.

The only thing chain is better for than a strap is dragging trees out of the woods with.

^this whole thing


chain is whack, no reason now-a-days to use it.
 

garrett

Well-known member
Jun 18, 2004
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Middleburg, VA
www.blackdogmobility.com
In my experience, winching is fine as long as you're nears a tree that you can anchor to. People playing in a swamp or mud field often get recovered via kinetic ropes(there are far better ones out there than ARB's "snatch strap") as it's great to have that dynamic energy to get unstuck.

ARB, Viking, etc make straps that vary in stretch - 10-20%. I like the straps because they are compact and are easy to store. The kinetic ropes (Masterpull Super Yanker) are larger and take up more space, but they do stretch quite a bit more - up to 30%. You'll have to really be moving something big to get to that number though.

K ropes are nice - quick and safe as long as they are used properly. They can be pre-rigged at either end of a vehicle and an affective recovery can be done quickly. Just as long as people remember to start off with a minimal amount of momentum - thus the reason we're using K rope to start with. Too much and you'll break the rope and/or a recovery point.
 

garrett

Well-known member
Jun 18, 2004
10,931
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Middleburg, VA
www.blackdogmobility.com
I'm curious why you wouldn't winch someone who was buried in mud / snow? I know that winching takes longer, but especially in the case of mud, I prefer the slow & easy approach to a strap.

Especially if you carry snatch blocks. Perfect situation for them. Slows the recovery down and reduces the load on the winch.

People can get carried away with K rope. You need enough room to use K rope and too often people start using too much throttle and they are bouncing off trees.
 

DiscoPhoto

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Jul 23, 2012
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The only problem I do have with Kinetic ropes are what people occasionally attach them to. Recovery points have to be especially solid when using kinetic ropes as the force is multiplied significantly. I wouldn't touch any rusty recovery points with a kinetic rope, or really anything that stretches and creates a dynamic force.