D1 stalls, hard starts

[p p p p]

Hey there,

I am new here, a dumb girl.

So my 1997 non-advanced evap D1 threw p1177, and then died a few times during a ride. Took the pressure at the rail (with a tire gauge, I LOVED the big argument on here about whether you can do that!) and it was zero. Took off the fuel filter and it was dripping black goop. It's spitting carbon when it starts.

Because I am a genius, I accidentally put the bad filter back on. Died again the next day. Towed home, new filter and new plugs. Started right up and I felt fancy and carefree all the way to the grocery store, where it died again coasting into the parking space.

I can get it started with much effort and swearing if I press my foot to the floor on startup and then two-foot the whole way, it wants to stall at every red light and is bucking on cruise. I am guessing I pushed my fuel pump too hard and it's giving up? It was a cheap one, the OEM design but not OEM. I can hear it, though I don't try to hear it every time so I can't say it's going every time. Pressure at the rail when it has NOT been zero has been about 26, 28. Shy of 30.

Pending codes are P0102 and and p1172 and of course a p3999.

I checked the relays at the back wheel and under the hood in that I looked at them and they booth look ancient but sealed and quite undisturbed. I opened the one under the hood and put some dieletric gel on the contacts. I have looked at the vacuum lines and I see no obvious cracks. I cleaned the MAF this weekend, did a NEW NEW filter, and am waiting for a new fuel pump that was supposed to come Saturday but didn't ARGH, a Delco. I also ordered a new cheap MAF because I have never had a MAF survive cleaning (this would be my third one). I've also wiped out the air intake and would LOVE to replace the IACV because I will bet that it's filthy, the intake feels filthy, but I have like $.08 in my bank account till Weds. I'll try to stick a Q-tip in there today.

If the fuel pump arrives today, I am too spooked to even try to start it. I'll check pressure at the rail and see what you all have to say.

When I get paid (I'm on disability, I have this stupid form of blood cancer that's trying to kill me), I will look into writing harnesses for the fuel pump. This would be my third one to fail. I read a similar post here and the dude fixed the issue with a wiring harness. ***I do not know how to work a multimeter***

Do ya think I will get it running? Yes, I know if I bought OEM I would prob do better. I still haven't really isolated the issue, I feel. Maybe you see otherwise. I know most indications point to the pump. Is it possible for it to run, yet run under capacity before giving out? Is that what follows a stoppered up filter? Is the minimum pressure at the rail 32? Is there consensus on psi at the rail?

I got the filter clogged (less than 7,000 miles on it) because I did a part-time job that involved secret shopping a gas station chain and I think their gas is filthy.

 

[discostew]

If you have a multi meter to figure out then it shouldn't be too hard to figure out. I like to take T pins from the Walmart sewing section and gently push them into the back of the connector. Then from those pins you can make your measurements. A voltmeter should be used while the circuit is trying to run your fuel pump. I'm willing to bet you have problem in the circuit and not another fuel pump. I can get you a schematic but not till later today.

 

[p p p p]

If you have a multi meter to figure out then it shouldn't be too hard to figure out. I like to take T pins from the Walmart sewing section and gently push them into the back of the connector. Then from those pins you can make your measurements. A voltmeter should be used while the circuit is trying to run your fuel pump. I'm willing to bet you have problem in the circuit and not another fuel pump. I can get you a schematic but not till later today.

Yeah, see, I have no points of reference for this, unfortunately. I would take pins and put them in what connector? Take what measurements? With what? I am guessing a multimeter.

I do not at all know how to do a multimeter -- is that the same as a voltmeter you reference?? -- nor do I have even the slightest clue what I would be doing, nor how to do it. I have TRIED to read up and figure this out but it usually says "then use the multimeter to test " and I literally honestly for real have not even the SLIGHTEST clue how to do this. Directions are fairly self-referential and make utterly no sense to a beginner trying to do this finite task

But thank you so much! I have no idea how to do this at all. If someone could teach me, like "put pins into this specific thing and touch it with this and do this to the meter and it should say this," I could MAYBE figure out what to do, but I literally have zero idea what any of this is and really no way of learning it successfully. I guess you think it's wiring to the fuel pump???? or the MAF? Or--??

I have a friend who is an electrical engineer but he refused to come help, saying he had no idea how a Rover works. So I am kinda stuck.

 

[p p p p]

I guess I would be doing steps 10-12 from this page???? on something??? with some setting on the meter??? expecting -- I do not know what to read out on the meter?????? https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/How+To+Use+A+Multimeter/25632

 

[Tugela]

I had a similar problem on my AEL Disco recently. It ate three fuel pumps in 6 months. Turned out to be the wiring harness for the fuel pump. The pump was not getting the correct power and the truck would die, no noise from fuel pump when the ignition was turned to position 2. Here's a link to the part on AB, although you may find it cheaper elsewhere. I'm considering sealing the connection since it sits in the driver's rear wheel well, where it is exposed to water and mud. I'm not saying this is definitely the cause of your problem, but it's a possibility that you can test for with the multimeter. If your pump isn't getting power then the wiring harness becomes a more likely culprit.

Replacing it is not hard. Remove the aluminum carpet trim near the bumper in the load space, peel back the carpet & foam, unscrew the access hatch to the fuel pump, unplug the electrical connector(s) to the pump, jack up (use jack stand if you can) driver's side rear wheel, remove wheel, unplug the connection at the other end (the connector clips to the underside of the truck above the chassis rail in the wheel well), pry out the keeper clips on the old wiring harness, slide the new harness into place from the side, insert keeper clips, plug in both ends, test. If it's working you can put the whole shebang back together. Tools needed = Phillips head screwdriver, prising tool (could be a small flathead), coat hanger or piece of wire to help wiggle the new harness into place. The hardest part is sliding the new harness into place, but if you do it from the side it's easy. Start to finish could be one hour if you don't run into problems.

This, of course, assumes that you are certain it's the fuel pump wiring harness. Before you go turning the key again it's probably a good idea to replace the fuel filter since you have already determined it's gunked up.

 

[Va_Disco]

If the fuel filter has gotten gunked up in that short of time I am wondering what the filter on the end of the fuel pump looks like. Perhaps the fuel pump filter is pluged up too. May need to open the tank check the filter and see if you need to drain and clean the tank.

If you suspect the tank could be dirty from bad gas quality I would start there.

 

[p p p p]

oh, smart, ok.

I haven't checked the fuel pump yet. It very well could be gunked up. Good point.

I do have a good fuel filter in now, the third one in a week (dirty one, dirty one put back in by mistake!, new one, new new one after I started stalling in case the new one was gunked up already).

Was on the phone with a Rover guru at RN today who had me testing power. I borrowed a multimeter and he walked me through it, which must have been painful for him. No power at the pump, no power at the inertia switch. I really was sure I was doing it all wrong, the needle NEVER MOVED.

Then no resistance between the relay under the hood and the inertia switch. Current theory is that the battery may have something to do with this. We tried some things and my battery is dead right now. He thinks it's possible low battery played havoc with the alarm system, which has stopped the fuel pump. Of course, the fuel pump very well could have stopped on its own from gunk, and I've drained the battery past all fixing by trying to many things. Which is the tail and which is the dog?

I've got roadside coming to test my battery, which is where I will have to re-enter this whole mess.

 

[Tugela]

Sounds like progress. And you're learning about your Disco and diagnosis in the process. Stick with it, you'll solve the problem.

 

[p p p p]

I *have* had intermittent pump noise; today I heard none.

I should have pulled the pump before now and checked it for crud, that's such a good idea. At present, just waiting for the new pump, I promised myself I would go into the fuel tank as few times as possible.

Incidentally, while I was changing the fuel filter, I had flow from the engine side of the fuel line, I don't remember seeing that before. Doesn't that indicate the pump is malfunctioning? Or am I wrong about that?

 

[Tugela]

Incidentally, while I was changing the fuel filter, I had flow from the engine side of the fuel line, I don't remember seeing that before. Doesn't that indicate the pump is malfunctioning? Or am I wrong about that?

Even if you depressurize the fuel system it's common to have some residual fuel in the line that drains out when you disconnect the filter. I keep some extra nitrile gloves within reach and rubber bands so I can cover the ends of the fuel lines and catch the drips instead of having it splash all over me while I work.

 

[discostew]

It was the spring tension on your fuel pressure regulator pushing the fuel back out the fuel line it came in on. Totally normal.

 

[p p p p]

It was the spring tension on your fuel pressure regulator pushing the fuel back out the fuel line it came in on. Totally normal.

yay! thank you

 

[p p p p]

Replaced the battery today and it fired up absolutely fine. Got it up to running temp, congratulated myself, came in and got my stuff to go out for a salad, tightened up all the spark plugs, tightened the air assembly, got back in and the whole thing was dead. No power, no nothing. Got out, jiggled the battery wires uselessly, got back in, and it was back to the same old not starting, cranking and cranking but not catching.

I can hear the pump start and stop.

Pending codes are P0101, p0102, P1172 and p3999.

I tried unplugging the coolant temp sensor, no change.

Tried unplugging the MAF, no change.

Can anybody help? I am just so upset.

 

[p p p p]

The fact that it started and ran fine after removing the battery has me thinking it's something to do with the ECU, adapative parameters, something finishing its cycle with a bad reading that it, on restart, is furnishing the wrong mix formula.

 

[Va_Disco]

Did you get the fuel pump changed out? How did the bottom of the fuel tank look?

 

[p p p p]

I haven't been able to get the fuel pump changed out. I'm using a pump rebuild and I could not get the fuel lines off the pump. Now it's going to be another couple days before the new lines get here.

But the pump itself looks fine and clean. I'll have to wait till after dark to check the tank, I just can't see it all that well.

 

[Va_Disco]

Looks really clean. As long as in the bottom cup is clean I would say the fuel being dirty isn't your problem. I have had a few pumps just die or work intermittently and then die. I hope you get it running soon.

 

[p p p p]

You and me both! This is suuuuch a drag. This is my DD. Luckily, the weather is great and I can bike around! But I'm really unhappy about this. It's humbling to be grounded. It just sucks.

The tank is clean. Much cleaner than I even anticipated. I can see the three bumps clearly, no debris, no murk. Looks really good. I wouldn't eat off of it, but I'm confident the filter caught the crud. Well, most of it. The tailpipe still spits carbon.

I have a live ODB reader that has "snapshot." I am pretty confident that if I unplug the battery again, it will start fine again. Would it be at all helpful to use "snapshot" and get some stats??? I hardly know what I'd be looking for -- I guess coolant temp (even though I believe we eliminated the coolant temp sensor by unplugging it), air and fuel stats... I dunno...

 

[XCELLER8]

this may be a good time to check the condition of the ecu itself, it's mounted on the passenger side fender well...many of us have had the fender rust through into the ecu, since you were going to unhook the battery anyway, unhook it....and unplug the 2 large connectors on the ecu...check for corrosion there...remove at least one cover on the ecu to see if it has corroded or has slime built up in it from water entering the case....this can cause loss of spark, and a whole lot of other evil things....its worth a look

 

[p p p p]

this may be a good time to check the condition of the ecu itself, it's mounted on the passenger side fender well...many of us have had the fender rust through into the ecu, since you were going to unhook the battery anyway, unhook it....and unplug the 2 large connectors on the ecu...check for corrosion there...remove at least one cover on the ecu to see if it has corroded or has slime built up in it from water entering the case....this can cause loss of spark, and a whole lot of other evil things....its worth a look

Did that on the first round! ECU was fine in appearance. I put some dieletric gel on it and closed it back up. I tried to multimeter the white/purple connex there LAST round, but at that point the battery was dead. I opened it, closed it up, stuck it back on, and proceeded.

What I can't get over is that after I replaced the battery, it started fine. Low and rough idle, but I'd kind of expect that -- not all the plugs were tightened down and I've got at least SOME bad gas working its way through. But after I got it up to running temp and a pretty good idle, I shut it off and went in, came back out, tightened the plugs, checked the wires, got in all set to go do errands, and it was back to not starting at all. I feel like Columbo: There's something in that I'm missing! What is it???