D2 going under the knife for TDI instal....

[Roving Beetle]

So this is a bit of a "blog entry" but you all have expressed an interest - called me nuts - expressed doubt - (all understandable!!) However also told me to post up progress as well as a write-up and pics. I will do. :bigok:

I was going to wait till spring/summer but have decided I would much rather have the truck laid up this time of the year. I have been waiting on a few key parts and info to come in and be figured out - Well it's time.

Next week she will be pulled into the shop, video taken of the excellent running motor/trans etc etc (to help with selling them I hope) and she will start to be very carefully pulled apart.

Going in: Isuzu 4BD1T, GM truck built-up 700R4 and I am still on the fence with the transfer case. I have an adapter all set for both the 230 T-Case as well as a BW1339 (Classic Heep Quadratrac) so one or the other will be used. The plus to the Rover case is obvious, but the Jeepy one is actually a very robust case maintained right (this one is fully rebuilt and was low miles to start with) and the 1339's viscous/locking diff is very nice. Not quite as low of a low range, however it also has a 1:1 high which would be helpful to get my revs down for the TDI. Max revs on the Isuzu are about 3K. 1800 - 2200 is ideal at 65-75 mph and would be pushing it with the Rover T-case ratio even with the 255-85's.

That one T-case issue is minor in the range of things on a project as this, but I am actually pretty sure I am going with the Heep Q-Trac case. It also has a little more room around it for the GM 700R4 so the whole drive line can be kept a few inches shorter. And as for off road strength...... I know in the end the Rover case is probably stronger, but to be fair the Q-Trac 1339 has one of the largest chains by far for a chain drive case and some pretty beefy internals....... but honestly I am not *that* hardcore. If things start to seem stressed, wheels are bouncing and the drive train is fighting things, I will pull out the strap/winch. I have seen enough carnage to know when it's time to slack off.

So, I will be posting up pics and progress updates as I go. I plan to document everything and save patterns for all of it too. If this works well I could set up a "kit" *of sorts* for people who are not afraid of Rover electrical systems! :banghead:

Doug.

 

[JohnB]

Cool this sounds like fun. I have no doubt you will get it installed. As far as D-webers saying it can't be done ****em! I believe any engine would be better then the 1950 era V-8. 700R4 great tranny and can handle almost anything thrown at it.
I have never had much luck with hybrid motor transplants but I've never had a rig that I could just put on chopping and hope for the best. I once installed a Porsche engine in my VW Bus and I've done some 16V transplants in Rabbits. Never have done anything that I needed to Fab motor mounts and such.
I'd like to throw in a BMW overhead cam V8 into a Landy.
You must live in the sticks without DEQ.
How do you think you'll hook up the electric speedo to the 700R4?

Keep us posted

 

[Roving Beetle]

Cool this sounds like fun. I have no doubt you will get it installed. As far as D-webers saying it can't be done ****em! I believe any engine would be better then the 1950 era V-8. 700R4 great tranny and can handle almost anything thrown at it.
I have never had much luck with hybrid motor transplants but I've never had a rig that I could just put on chopping and hope for the best. I once installed a Porsche engine in my VW Bus and I've done some 16V transplants in Rabbits. Never have done anything that I needed to Fab motor mounts and such.
I'd like to throw in a BMW overhead cam V8 into a Landy.
You must live in the sticks without DEQ.
How do you think you'll hook up the electric speedo to the 700R4?

Keep us posted

Thanks, I have done a bunch of serious fab/instal jobs that are not for the faint of heart. This one really is not much different to be honest. Time is the biggest factor really.

DEQ??

Speedo is run off the wheel speed sensors on a D2 - it's not an issue. The key issues are crank sensor and TPS (among a ton of other "smaller things") Hill decent control will be lost (that's fine).

 

[Mongo]

this should be good reading...as for the t-case, just get a lt-230 from a diesel D90 or re-gear yours and have something that is about 200% stronger than any jeep t-case. With proper gearing between the t-case and diff's, you can really have a great set-up...

 

[Roving Beetle]

Thanks Mongo...... those thought's have been going through my head a lot. With the 255-85's the ratio is so close even with the 230 case that I know it's almost silly to not use it. Mine does have some minor play in the fwd drive shaft output, a simple fix, and is otherwise solid.

It does mean I'd have to move the motor fwd a couple inches, can be done but it gets it tighter, and i'd have to modify my floor a little and move the T-case back a little too. (The 700R4/230 case adapter is pretty long) New drive shafts either way no matter what, so no biggie.

I have had many Jeeps over the years and always had great luck with the Q-trac for what it's worth.

Never looked into it, but how do the (I maybe incorrectly understand) similar BW T-cases hold up in the older Rovers?

Thanks.

 

[rmuller]

Never looked into it, but how do the (I maybe incorrectly understand) similar BW T-cases hold up in the older Rovers?

Main issue's with the Borg Warner is that its a chain-driven TC that uses a viscous coupling for traction control as compared to the LT-230 which is gear-driven and has the center diff lock. If you're going to be wheeling it, the LT230 is the better of the two.

 

[GARover]

I have had many Jeeps over the years and always had great luck with the Q-trac for what it's worth.

Never looked into it, but how do the (I maybe incorrectly understand) similar BW T-cases hold up in the older Rovers?

Thanks.

Yup! Quadratrac is pretty bullet proof. I think it's a wise choice!!!

Good lock and keep us posted as you make progress. A TDI Rover sounds like something I'd love. Just not sure I have the patience to actually do a project like that. Hat's off to ya for foraging new ground!

 

[atomicmoose]

You have peaked my interest.

As a Jeep/Rover owner, I have had experience with many parts. I think you'll be please with the Q-TRAC. And ever if you managed to break it at some point, there are a ton of them out there for parts.

 

[MUSKYMAN]

Yup! Quadratrac is pretty bullet proof. I think it's a wise choice!!!

!

you sure about that?

I cant think of a TC that I have seen fail more often then these?

over the 30 years I have been wheeling I have seen first hand with my own eyes a dozen puke thier guts out.

first the sounds then that scene of dripping ATF :ack:

sorry aluminum chain drive TC's and off road just dont go togather.

and dont give me the "well maintained" part either.

even brand new chains just plain snap when you put to much torque through them on slick surfaces such as snow or mud.

This sounds like a fun swap project...dont even think about the quadra-crap

 

[Mongo]

I wtih ya Thom, to think a quad-crap is even close in strength to a lt-230 only shows that our beetle boy has never been inside one...If there's ONE item that set's the LR apart from the J#$p shit is the LT-230...

Re-gear yours and have the best of both worlds

quick edit: You don't have to worry about breaking a LT-230...

 

[Roving Beetle]

I wtih ya Thom, to think a quad-crap is even close in strength to a lt-230 only shows that our beetle boy has never been inside one...If there's ONE item that set's the LR apart from the J#$p shit is the LT-230...

Re-gear yours and have the best of both worlds

quick edit: You don't have to worry about breaking a LT-230...

Ok OK, flames are deserved here, I will admit it - I am going against the grain here.... I never meant to indicate that the Q-Trac was close to as strong as a 230 - if you look back I stated that the advantages to the 230 were obvious, but in the defense of the Q-trac - blah - blah- blah. Just saying that for a chain drive case they are strong. Trouble is that they have no provision for taking care of chain stretch so "with proper maint." they can survive a long time behind some decent power. People run ATF in them and wonder why the viscous diff goes to hell, binds up and pukes the whole case and guts out onto the trail. Also, people wheel them hard with lots of slippage and really work the crap out of the diff when they *should* have the diff locked..... this again creates a lot heat (in any viscous diff I have seen) and causes failure more often then anything else.

So, I will state again, they are a good transfer case *if maintained* and i will add: *used* properly for what they are. If I had to pick a chain drive case, a well maintained Q-Trac is still (In My Humble Opinion) about the best one out there.

I also will re-state: I go off road, use the truck the way it should be, but i am not aggressive or stupid with the skinny pedal. Hell, the torque from the TDI will blow the axles pretty quick too...... yes i am going to upgrade all four of them but still there are other weak links in the drive line.

All this said, I agree that the 230 is ideal if re-geared and i have been looking into that. I have not found too much info on it. However, when combined with the issue of the adapter being a fair bit longer it starts to become more attractive to use the Q-Trac.

And YES I have had them both apart, they are BOTH in my shop on the floor right now. The extra 230 I have needs some bearing work so i was using it simply as a mockup and pattern for the adapter. I have never seen a Rover case explode - I know they are tough - so is a NP205 - but i don't want to use one of those in my rig for other reasons. It's all a balancing act of all the attributes is how i see it.

Please continue to flame away and express your opinions if you feel the need.... I enjoy all the insight! But please don't insult my abilities, I am not new to this stuff, just Rovers - That said I will GLADLY admit if i am truly wrong or have been ill-advised however.

 

[Mongo]

I'll beat this horse a little...so a "well maintained" chain driven t-case is going to handle the additional torque of a diesel as well or better than a gear driven, center lockable t-case...put the pipe down dude. I've seen MAYBE 2 lt-230's that have failed, and that was due to MANY MILES of abuse...

just seem to be well...stupid to put a chain driven unit behind a diesel when you have a t-case that lives behind a diesel everyday and they never fail....

 

[ChicagoDon]

I do like your ideas. I think use of the Isuzu over a Cummins 4bt is pretty cool. The 4bt is a bit too grunty and low revving to be fun in a D2, the Isuzu is a bit more peppy. Ive heavily researched this, and am in the progress of a RRC 6BT swap, so I'll be interested to see how this turns out. What are you doing about axles?

 

[Roving Beetle]

I'll beat this horse a little...so a "well maintained" chain driven t-case is going to handle the additional torque of a diesel as well or better than a gear driven, center lockable t-case...put the pipe down dude. I've seen MAYBE 2 lt-230's that have failed, and that was due to MANY MILES of abuse...

just seem to be well...stupid to put a chain driven unit behind a diesel when you have a t-case that lives behind a diesel everyday and they never fail....

I never stated: "a well maintained chain driven t-case is going to handle the additional torque of a diesel as well or better than a gear driven, center lockable t-case" never ever said that at all, sorry if it seemed implied - it was not. I have held all along that I agree FULLY the 230 is a stronger case, no question.

No crack pipe here! :yawn: LOL.

My statements were to say that I think the Q-Trac is plenty strong enough *for my uses* if it's design and function are understood.

There are plenty of chain drive cases holding up very well behind diesels. NO THEY ARE NOT EVER GOING TO BE AS STRONG AS A GEAR DRIVE UNIT and they DO fail pretty often. But that is not to say they will die an early death. My last truck was a '96 Dodge 2500 with a 12V Cummins, dyno'd just over 400hp & 850 tq to the wheels........ that truck had a chain drive case (with what I felt was a pretty pathetic chain), granted it didn't run full time and the chain only acted on the front drive. That said it did however hold up to some serious (but not stupid) abuse off road, plowing snow and pulling boats (up to 28-30 feet) & a hydraulic boat hauling trailer up the often slippery in spots launch ramp in 4wd low.

Again, I understand the razzing and all....... and i really appreciate the comments and advice. :bigok: But please try not to make what I am saying "into other things", my head is not up my arse here but everyone can always use a little help sometimes.

The 230 is a great transfer case, thanks for the push to use it.... I am leaning more that way after this thread - but I stand firm on my original statement that I think the Q-Trac is a solid case *for what it is* and would work well for *my* rig and old guy driving style.

 

[Roving Beetle]

I do like your ideas. I think use of the Isuzu over a Cummins 4bt is pretty cool. The 4bt is a bit too grunty and low revving to be fun in a D2, the Isuzu is a bit more peppy. Ive heavily researched this, and am in the progress of a RRC 6BT swap, so I'll be interested to see how this turns out. What are you doing about axles?

Thanks, I love the Isuzu's they are so smooth and quiet compared to the Cummins. Power wise it's pretty easy to get a heck of a lot more oomph out of the Isuzu too. The one I came across is very low milage and runs perfectly. It sat a fair bit and the body/frame rusted so it was retired. It was a local truck and i know the history so I know it's a solid motor.

As for axles, I will start with some HD cv's & rears I guess.... I have access to a set of matched L-Cruiser FJ80's both factory locked. I am tempted, but for now I want to simply get her going well and play a bit. Nothing hardcore yet. Before I head out on my long trip up to the Yukon, California and then most of the winter in Moab I will sort out the axles better. Moab can be tough on stuff even when you are not trying to be.

Moab would kill my Q-Trac if anything did.........:ack: :banghead: :victory:

 

[Velocewest]

My interest is "peaked" too...

I'd be interested in your "kit". I've been looking at Isuzu diesels for a while, they seem available at much better prices than Rover diesels, and weigh less that the Cummins.

 

[Roving Beetle]

Just a little update for the masses who care, or not!

Pulled the Disco in the other day and did all the final measurements and planning, then pulled her out and brought the Isuzu Cab-over truck back in.

I have the motor and all related "stuff" out of the Isuzu NPR and all the parts are sitting on the shop floor/bench. The Disco will be pulled back in tomorrow and disassembly started of the front end/motor/trans/transfer/fuel tank etc etc.

I'll snap a bunch of pics in a few days and post those up, it will be a sad yet exciting sight to see her all apart with her guts hanging out. :ack:

For those wondering ----------------> I'm still undecided on the LT230 vs Quadra-Crap case debate. I may see if i can "clock" the 230 and shorten the adapter a fair bit. Looking quick I don't think I can get much without introducing other funky problems or loosing a bunch of ground clearance.

Thanks for the webspace to post in, somehow i feel better knowing if it fails horribly I have a whole world-wide-web to say "I told you so!" :victory:

 

[JohnB]

Thanks, I have done a bunch of serious fab/instal jobs that are not for the faint of heart. This one really is not much different to be honest. Time is the biggest factor really.

DEQ??

Speedo is run off the wheel speed sensors on a D2 - it's not an issue. The key issues are crank sensor and TPS (among a ton of other "smaller things") Hill decent control will be lost (that's fine).

In Oregon DEQ is the inspection stands for dept of enviromental quality(tags) they would have a field day with this landy. Probably arrest you!

Had no idea the speedo ran off a speed sensor. Makes things easy.

You've done your research.

Cheers

 

[Roving Beetle]

Ah, figured it was something like that........ being a diesel swap it's much easier (at least in many states) you may look into it. They are often considered "alternative fuel vehicles" and will be allowed/exempt.

I won't have any troubles here in Maine, if it were a gasser it'd have to be the same year or newer gas engine with all the emissions equip. in tact.

 

[Velocewest]

Todd Eliason just registered his 300TDi swap RRC in Oregon. The DEQ didn't even blink, they passed him right through.