Diesel conversion and state inspections

Roving Beetle

Well-known member
aliastel said:
How did you do this with the Isuzu 4BD1T in your D2, as far as inspections, etc. go?

It was off-road only and built "as such". :)

It was completely illegal for highway use, even though my area of Maine had zero issue with it (southern Maine DOES care) It was built and used and SOLD as such - very clear on that.

Just stick with pre-OBD2 and do what ever you want so long as it's done in a clean and safe manner.

The trouble with ALL of this stuff on a 1996 and later is that even if your "State" cares not it IS still illegal 100% to do these non-approved swaps - end of story. Trouble can come when selling them, or if your State suddenly adopts FED standards (like MANY, Maine included are going toward)

And it's anything 1996 and newer, not a year cutoff or anything. There is even talk of keeping it 1996 even AFTER 25 years (year 2021) So long as it's "easy" for them to test like OBD2 is, they will likely keep doing it. It's an easy money maker and to be fair a good way to keep seriously polluting vehicle off the roads.

My .02: It's too much work and liability for the Fed and State inspectors to allow "custom" swaps on emission controlled vehicles.


Doug
 

Viggen

Well-known member
Jul 1, 2009
274
0
va
Roving Beetle said:
Just stick with pre-OBD2 and do what ever you want so long as it's done in a clean and safe manner.

The trouble with ALL of this stuff on a 1996 and later is that even if your "State" cares not it IS still illegal 100% to do these non-approved swaps - end of story. Trouble can come when selling them, or if your State suddenly adopts FED standards (like MANY, Maine included are going toward)

And it's anything 1996 and newer, not a year cutoff or anything. There is even talk of keeping it 1996 even AFTER 25 years (year 2021) So long as it's "easy" for them to test like OBD2 is, they will likely keep doing it. It's an easy money maker and to be fair a good way to keep seriously polluting vehicle off the roads.

My .02: It's too much work and liability for the Fed and State inspectors to allow "custom" swaps on emission controlled vehicles.


Doug

Even doing an OBDI truck is a liability. Youre still using a motor that is either illegal because it is not a light duty diesel (Cummins/ Isuzu), not the same year or newer (OM swaps) or a motor never imported into the States therefore not federalized. Really, youre in a lose- lose situation. Youre choices are to choose from one of the handful of light duty diesels that actually came into the States and with that, youre going to run into some serious wiring headaches making it prohibitively expensive.

I put a lot of thought into it but like Doug has said, in the end it just didnt seem worth it to me. The odds of getting caught, so to speak, are slim but as the emissions standards continue to to become harder and more and more states are adopting federal standards, the possibility of dumping all this money into a diesel swap to get caught retroactively is something I dont want to worry about. In about 8 or 9 years, if my shit hasnt rusted into the ground by then, Ill do a diesel swap and they wont care.

Youre OBDII so youve got some thinking to do. A newer gas motor would pick up power and youll pick up some mileage too as the design of motors has come a long way since the 1950s when the BOPR was first designed. Youre still going to have to deal with wiring issues to keep the OBDII working.
 

LRflip

Well-known member
Oct 8, 2006
5,741
25
none of your fucking business
I think, and Crown14 might be the best to answer this question, that the first question asked is whether or not the vehicle is gas or diesel. And, if the answer is diesel, then they just go straight on to a vehicle safety inspection. That, however, may be a North Carolina thing.
 

KyleT

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2007
6,059
8
39
Fort Worth, TEXAS
Roving Beetle said:
Yes - BUT if they go to Fed standards *anything* OBD2 will get check/plugged in as they go by VIN not what you *tell* them. Just a heads up.



it is the blackest murkiest grey area there is...
http://www.epa.gov/compliance/resources/policies/civil/caa/mobile/engswitch.pdf
Many programs have established policies for vehicles which have been engine switched. While EPA does not require these programs to fail engine switched vehicles which are not in compliance with federal policy, the Agency does strongly recommend that these programs set their requirements so as to be consistent with the federal law. State or local programs which pass illegally engine switched vehicles may mislead federally regulated parties into believing that engine switching is allowed by federal law.

it falls into the states hands as far as I can tell.
 

aliastel

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2009
942
0
Champaign, IL
KyleT said:
it is the blackest murkiest grey area there is...
http://www.epa.gov/compliance/resources/policies/civil/caa/mobile/engswitch.pdf


it falls into the states hands as far as I can tell.

Nice quote. This pretty much sums up the legal situation. I read on one forum where a guy actually called the EPA and asked them about swaps outright and the rep replied that the EPA is really concerned more with companies who do swaps and import illegal engines and vehicles as a business, rather than individuals who convert their personal vehicles.

Where I live, there is no emissions check at all, and to be honest, I've never taken a vehicle to have the emissions inspected in my life. So, even though my truck is OBD2, it will never be checked as long as I continue to reside in an emissions exempt area. However that same EPA rep also told the caller that if a state or local law enforcement officer noticed that the vehicle's emissions equipment had been tampered with, they could charge the driver under federal law even if the EPA wasn't in the habit of actively enforcing against personal vehicles. Unlikely, but possible . . .
 

aliastel

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2009
942
0
Champaign, IL
Roving Beetle said:
True - it really is something much more worrisome for a company for sure.

Just a pain in the bawls to do a swap and possibly have no way to get it past testing or inspections if your county/district suddenly starts being hard-assed.

Things are always changing, especially as population grows. However, true rural areas with only a few people per square mile will probably never have testing.
 

Viggen

Well-known member
Jul 1, 2009
274
0
va
KyleT said:
it is the blackest murkiest grey area there is...
http://www.epa.gov/compliance/resources/policies/civil/caa/mobile/engswitch.pdf


it falls into the states hands as far as I can tell.

This is why you need to get in touch with your DEQ is important. Forget the DMV, they control registration, not inspections. Northern Virginia is a completely different state than the rest of Virginia. We do intensive testing, the rest of the state, not so much. When I asked my DEQ, the Director by the way, this is the response I got:

"Vehicle emissions certification is controlled under Federal law. Federal regulations control tampering with or altering any vehicle emissions configuration. These regulations have become stricter as vehicle emissions controls have become more effective and more complicated. In general engine swaps (and presumably gasoline engine to diesel engine) are allowed only if they conform to a configuration that was certified for the newer of the chassis or the engine year. See EPA fact sheet attached. If a diesel configuration has not been certified for your vehicle chassis EPA would require extensive testing.

Also Virginia regulations (9VAC 5-91-490) stipulate that the emissions standards for the year & model of the vehicle chassis or engine, whichever is newer, apply for the emissions inspection program. Diesel vehicles up to 8500 lbs gvwr are required to pass an on-board diagnostic emissions test in the northern Virginia area. If either the engine or the chassis is 1997 or newer, this would apply to your vehicle.

If the vehicle is 1996 or older, if it diesel you would not be prompted for an emissions test. In this case, if designated as a diesel, an emissions inspection would not be required. I am not sure what DMV requires with respect to changing the fuel type on your vehicle record."

Excerpts from the above referenced EPA Engine Switching Fact Sheet:
"EPA received many questions regarding the application of this law to a situation where one engine is removed from a vehicle and another engine is installed in its place. EPA's policy regarding "engine switching" is covered under the provisions of Mobile Source Enforcement Memorandum No. lA (Attachment 1). This policy states that EPA will not consider any modification to a "certified configuration" to be a violation of federal law if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that emissions are not adversely affected. In many cases, proper emission testing according to the Federal Test Procedure would be necessary to make this determination."

"A "certified configuration" is an engine or engine chassis design which has been "certified" (approved) by EPA prior to the production of vehicles with that design. Generally, the manufacturer submits an application for certification of the designs of each engine or vehicle it proposes to manufacture prior to production. The application includes design requirements for all emission related parts, engine calibrations, and other design parameters for each different type of engine (in heavy-duty vehicles), or engine chassis combination (in light-duty vehicles). EPA then "certifies" each acceptable design for use, in vehicles of the upcoming model year.

For light-duty vehicles, installation of a light-duty eng~ne into a different light-duty vehicle by any person would be considered tampering unless the resulting vehicle is identical (with regard to all emission related parts, engine design parameters, and engine calibrations) to a certified configuration of the same or newer model year as the vehicle chassis, or if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that emissions are not adversely affected as described in Memo 1A. The appropriate source for technical information regarding the certified configuration of a vehicle of a particular model year is the vehicle manufacturer."

"The most common engine replacement involves replacing a gasoline engine in a light-duty vehicle with another gasoline engine. Another type of engine switching which commonly occurs, however, involves diesel powered vehicles where the diesel engine is removed and replaced with a gasoline engine. Applying the above policy, such a replacement is legal only if the resulting engine-chassis configuration is equivalent to a certified configuration of the same model year or newer as the chassis. If the vehicle chassis in question has been certified with gasoline, as well as diesel engines(as is common), such a conversion could be done legally.

Another situation recently brought to EPA's attention involves the offering for sale of used foreign-built engines. These engines are often not covered by a certified configuration for any vehicle sold in this country. In such a case, there is no way to install such an engine legally. EPA has recently brought enforcement actions against certain parties who have violated the tampering prohibition by performing illegal engine switches."

Read and decide for yourself. There is also this part about the State laws at the end:
"B. State Laws
Many states also have statutes or regulations prohibiting tampering in general. Most of these laws specifically prohibit tampering by individuals. A few specifically prohibit engine switching, using provisions similar to those stated in EPA's policy. To determine the state law in any given state, the state's Attorney General's office should be contacted. In addition, many states have state or local antitampering inspection programs which require a periodic inspection of vehicles in that area, to determine the integrity of emission control systems. Many programs have established policies for vehicles which have been engine switched. While EPA does not require these programs to fail engine switched vehicles which are not in compliance with federal policy, the Agency does strongly recommend that these programs set their requirements so as to be consistent with the federal law. State or local programs which pass illegally engine switched vehicles may mislead federally regulated parties into believing that engine switching is allowed by federal law.
 

KyleT

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2007
6,059
8
39
Fort Worth, TEXAS
IMO, a diesel burns much cleaner than a gasser and you can run veggie. I am betting that there is some sort of alternative fuels loophole for this, i just havent found it yet...
 

Viggen

Well-known member
Jul 1, 2009
274
0
va
KyleT said:
IMO, a diesel burns much cleaner than a gasser and you can run veggie. I am betting that there is some sort of alternative fuels loophole for this, i just havent found it yet...

Keep looking as youll never find one. I mentioned that and this is what I was told:

"You should be aware that although bio-diesel has many advantages in terms of global warming, toxic emission reductions and in some cases reduction in NOx emissions, the emissions are dependent on precise fuel and engine control."

They dont care what you run as your fuel. They care about the motor and whether or not its legal, gas or diesel.
 

benlittle

Well-known member
Jul 18, 2005
4,086
7
Draper
Thread revival.

I've been contemplating doing this swap for a while and it's in progress now. I've spoken to the DEQ and the following applies to residents of Salt Lake County;

-The engine fitted must be of the same make and model of the vehicle being fitted.

-The engine needs to be the same year or newer as the vehicle being fitted.

-If the vehicle will be void of OBDII after the fitment - the vehicle needs to be inspected AT the EPA/ DEQ office.

In order for it to PASS - you must provide and prove the following;

Proof of the engine make/ year (bill of sale)
Pre-engine fitment emission tests
Prove that the new engine is cleaner than the old one

The guy I've been working with handles most of the engine swap's in the county and said that it just needs to be done right and you won't have a problem. He said "we aren't going to leave you with an unusable vehicle and fail you automatically... We just want the air to be clean".

The "kit" I'm getting includes the following.

300Tdi
R380 gearbox
1.4 transfer box
radiator
intercooler
intercooler frame
water hoses
intercooler hoses
pedal box
fuel filter housing with filter
fuel lines
oil cooler lines
fan with coupling
gearbox cross member with mounts
exhaust down pipe
glow plug relay
engine mounts
air filter with pipe
master cylinder/ slave cylinder for clutch
Discovery Tdi instrument/ dash cluster
all nuts, bolts, hoses and ancillaries to completely fit the engine in stock fashion
 

dmarchand

Well-known member
Apr 20, 2004
383
0
Massachuchuchusetts
You have a '97 right? Any chance Utah is going to have a 15 yr exclusion on OBDII compliance/passing? In MA, the state is moving to allow 15 yr old vehicle exemptions for non functioning OBDII or vehicles that can't comply (codes that can't be extinguished). The reason is, there are far fewer 15 yr old vehicles on the road here (salt) than would be reasonable to enforce. The state realizes that new parts to fix those cars are drying up. You can easily amend your title in MA with the form and $25. But until the state inspection allows the bypass for non-fucntioing OBDII, diesel swap is SOL.
 

benlittle

Well-known member
Jul 18, 2005
4,086
7
Draper
I have a 99 DI. Nope, no 15 year law. Basically it just has to be out of the same vehicle and run cleaner. Without OBDII I have to get it tested at teh MEQ office instead of the traditional emission shop.
 

Coldwater

Well-known member
Jul 1, 2011
81
0
Arvada CO
benlittle said:
I have a 99 DI. Nope, no 15 year law. Basically it just has to be out of the same vehicle and run cleaner. Without OBDII I have to get it tested at teh MEQ office instead of the traditional emission shop.
If you dont mind answering... How much is this costing? Have you coincided the International 2.8 TGV? Its a lot more money than the 300tdi but its also a lot more powerful... from what I have read. Its a hot-rod 300tdi. Does the 99 DI have all the computer issues that the DII has when doing a diesel swap?

This is a question for anyone that has the answer. Roving Beetle, I hope you chime in.
When you register your car for "Off Road Only" Do you get a different license plate that says something like that on it or is it in the states computer? For instance... you get pulled over for speeding or having your high beams on. Would it say that in the police computer? Can you drive a "Off Road Only" car on city streets?

Also, I have heard of people registering their Diesel Discos as Commercial trucks. What and how is that? Do you need a company to register it under?
 
Last edited:

benlittle

Well-known member
Jul 18, 2005
4,086
7
Draper
Cost is kind of up in the air right now. I just finalized all the bits in the kit and I'm waiting on the shipping bid to come back. Total I'm expecting to be about 4k shipped to my door.

Nope, I didn't consider the international 2.8. One of the man stipulations is that the engine has to have been made for the vehicle, make/ model etc.
 

Coldwater

Well-known member
Jul 1, 2011
81
0
Arvada CO
benlittle said:
Cost is kind of up in the air right now. I just finalized all the bits in the kit and I'm waiting on the shipping bid to come back. Total I'm expecting to be about 4k shipped to my door.

Nope, I didn't consider the international 2.8. One of the man stipulations is that the engine has to have been made for the vehicle, make/ model etc.

4K is not bad... there is a guy that gave me a quote for 15k for the 2.8 TGV installed into a DII. Thats brand new, 000.000 miles everything is new though. I really want a freaking diesel in my DII.
 

Roving Beetle

Well-known member
Benlittle: My understanding is it STILL has to be an approved USDOT/EPA motor..... you may have issues using a non-USA spec motor. BUT, I have been wrong a couple times in my life so I hope you do fine. :) Just be careful is all I am saying.

As for the registration - You can not "register" a non-spec vehicle for off road use, that is the point; no registration, not registered for road use - in other words a tractor/farm vehicle etc. same way as if you wanted to build a tractor using a coal burning steam motor and have it run on metal spiked wheels, can it be registered and used "on road"? Nope. Can you build it and run it on your own land/trailer it to friends trails/fields? Yup. For now anyway till the hippies say it's too polluting.

Doug
 

benlittle

Well-known member
Jul 18, 2005
4,086
7
Draper
Roving Beetle said:
Benlittle: My understanding is it STILL has to be an approved USDOT/EPA motor..... you may have issues using a non-USA spec motor. BUT, I have been wrong a couple times in my life so I hope you do fine. :) Just be careful is all I am saying.

As for the registration - You can not "register" a non-spec vehicle for off road use, that is the point; no registration, not registered for road use - in other words a tractor/farm vehicle etc. same way as if you wanted to build a tractor using a coal burning steam motor and have it run on metal spiked wheels, can it be registered and used "on road"? Nope. Can you build it and run it on your own land/trailer it to friends trails/fields? Yup. For now anyway till the hippies say it's too polluting.

Doug

I've spoken to the DEQ several times and have been very clear that it's a non US spec motor, from the UK. They say as long as it's a rover motor from a discovery 99 or newer and burns cleaner, it'll pass.