Fact Vs. Opinion

[Schattenjager]

Let?s begin with me saying that we really can?t get much for empirical facts here - this BBS is designed around user experience. However, we do have a responsibility to our fellow Rover lovers to try not to make our ideas - feelings into gospel.
I want this to be an open discussion about real world trials, not an argument that ?my bumper / oil / tire is better en yurs!?
A fellow here in Alaska was recently killed when he struck a Caribou near Fairbanks. The impact did not kill him, rather the fact that his Toyota Tacoma suffered damage to his radiator and engine compartment led to him to die of exposure. He wrote notes while we was waiting to die. I had the chance to see his rig after the fact - nicely setup - with an unknown make of bull bar. It was folded up like a piece of tin foil on the drivers side, while the passenger and center looked OK. By ?looks? of the good side I would have thought this bumper to be very strong. Looks are not a tensile test, however.
I know RTE is a huge favorite on this board and I have yet to see one in the flesh. However some of the stories I have read about them led me to think that they are mostly untested in sever, real circumstances. If you look at the TJM website, they are bragging about the damage their bumper took on a deer impact. Look at the photos and let me know if that inspires any confidence in you...
http://www.tjmbullbars.com/index1.htm
I canceled my order today.
I was with a buddy who went over a rock face that gave way sending his Classic straight down rather than to the side. It free fell a good three feet right on the ARB bumper, which compressed at the proper points, but largely held up to the impact unscathed. He had it recoated for looks / rust sake.
That seems like a real test. Granted, everyone is unique and our circumstances are too, the difference is that someone could die if they choose the wrong product. Here in Alaska, we do not have a 4X4 shop on every corner, like by beloved Colorado! Many people rely on theis BBS for thier outfitting needs. Someone could likely to die because they were ?sold? on the wrong thing.
I guess the point of this rambling is we have a certain responsibility to report facts and I hope that we can all (myself mostly) post here to impart wisdom, rather a vote for ?our untested side.? atriot:

 

[Andrew Homan]

I'm no Alaskan, but I married one and visit. Its to bad the person you wrote about died. But is it cause his bumper didn't fill the bill or that he wasn't prepared. If his vehicle stopped running for some reason would he still have died. Sounds like he needed more survival gear. That could have happend in eastern Oregon in feb if you hit an elk and had the same problems.

That being said I think an RTE would hold up well. I don't own one but trust the people who build them. I built my on and know it will do well. Call RTE and run it by them. If they don't think it will work they'll tell you.

Stay safe up there. You live in the greatest state in the union.atriot:

 

[rmuller]

One of the things I've thought about with the TJM/ARB (crush cans) versus RTE/SG bumpers.. is that the crush cans are absorbing a lot of the impact, instead of transferring it to the frame where the impact would be felt more throughout other parts of the truck.

Personally, on having both owned the TJM and now the RTE, I know the RTE is a lot more solid offroad, but its the real world onroad experiences that I'm not sure about..

 

[Swa j-Ten]

Unless you have a friend with a good FEA program and about a week of free time, your judgement will be limited to our perception, based on how 'beefy' a bar looks, the quality of the welds, etc.

Simply put, if a bumper has a section modulus equivalent to each member of the chassis, and if it is attached to the chassis as securely as practicable, it will be as strong as your vehicle. What you need to understand is that full-frontal impact stresses the material transversely, and that unless you are using HY80 the best you can hope for is that the bumper does not shear into pieces, or that the chassis itself does not break in two. Henry Ford gave a retarded drunk the ability to dote around the village with 25,000 lb-sec of momentum, and the reality is that to withstand collision with a Caribou standing still (and for your chassis to not bend an inch) you'd need a factor of safety of 50 or 100. After that, guess what? Your vehicle is too heavy to move.

Just my opinion. Add more steel, my friend, consider the Quality of the welds, and watch where you are going. Recall that in The Matrix, Morpheus referred to the freeway as certain death. With good reason.

 

[discovery12]

Yes this is a good point. I've seen a RTE and ARB in action and both did good on several hits. I do believe and feel that the RTE is a stronger bumper. however I also have the feeling anything will bend and fold up if hit hard enough. No bumper is indestructable even if it may feel like it is.

That's my 2 cents.atriot: :disco:

 

[GregH]

I'll bite.

I have a Classic. I had an ARB with Warn M10000. I now have an RTE with Ramsey RE12000.

The RTE is hands down a much stronger and heavier bumper. If you were to see it in person and compare you would agree. It uses 1/4 " steel and is fully-boxed using quality welds. If I recall correctly it is attached to the front frame using six (6) 3/4" Grade 8 bolts. It is much thicker and heavier than the frame on my truck.

The ARB bent up one corner from contact with a rock. It was also somewhat restrictive with regards to approach angle. Under heavy winching from one side it visibly would bend from stress.

IMHO your bumper and winch are two items that you should not think about the cost. Since your choice of bumper somewhat dictates your choice of winch, I think the only bumper I would buy for the RCC is the RTE and winch I would only go with: Warn M15000, Warn 16.5ti, Ramsey RE12000 or Husky 10.

From my experience, the worm gear drive on the Ramsey mounting requires the RTE to stick out a little farther than I would prefer. If I were to order now I'd probably go with the Warn 16.5ti.

My 2 cents-

 

[JamesWyatt]

Wouldn't the best thing to have in such a situation is a sat phone with pre-programmed emergency numbers and handheld GPS unit to pinpoint the location? Of course, you need survival gear while waiting, but at least you know someone is coming.

Any ARB, TJM or RTE is better than the factory plastic.

The best way to be safe in remote areas vs large road crossing animals is to have a lifted one-ton truck with a heavy duty bumper. The bigger heavier your rig is, the more likely you are to survive. I would not want to hit a Caribou with a Tacoma - or a Disco.

 

[Swa j-Ten]

... you'd need a factor of safety of 50 or 100. After that, guess what? Your vehicle is too heavy to move.

Well, that's not entirely true. Someone figured it out..

photo from http://www.hq.usace.army.mil/cepa/pubs/mar01/tank.jpg

 

[Schattenjager]

OK - we've gotten off the point a little - Greg - my point here is that LOOKING at a bumper aint gonna tell you a thing. Sure the metal is thick and the welds are pretty but that does not equate to strength? For someone not in the world of metallurgy, the Genuine Brush Bar may look great, while I wouldn't bolt a hi-lift jack to it without fear of the the weight ripping it off...

Cell phones don't work too well between Anchorage and Fairbanks. Sure, this poor fellow could have prepared better, but I feel that he was lured into a false sense of security by a sub-standard product. To say that one thing is 'hands down better' had better be backed up with checkable facts if you are talking about something that could get someone into trouble. That is the point of my post.

Taking it to another level - look at what the commuter rigs use on their routs between Anchorage and Fairbanks:

 

[UK 4X4]

OK issue.....in a crash the vehicle is designed to have a crush zone in order to save the people in side...

The bumber is a big part in the crumple zone design.

putting a bigger heavier non crumpling bumper simply transfers the
impact force to the chassis.

We talk about strength in off roading being that the bumper hits things and all we need is some touch up paint...rather than ripping off the trim and having the quarter panels re-designed

In an actual accident T-bone or elk type incident where loss of life is possible........i wonder wether the factory impact tested original would be actually better at saving the passengers.....

But I'm sure does not save the bodywork etc....

I would say there's a limit to which an ARB/RTE stops protecting the body work/ radiator etc and becomes an issue with bending the chassis up into the passenger compartment.

However we also have to think of the intimidation factor at junctions.....most people won't take a chance when they see an armoured truck heading their direction.

RE the guy dying of exposure due to his truck having an accident...

sorry to hear of it but, surely he must have had a winter survival kit with him ?

I'm only new to the mountain scene but already carry a pretty good kit with sleeping bag /extra clothes/ food and stove etc... and the company has a vehicle tracking system....ie you log where and when you are going, you call in to the trackin station at specific points and if you miss calling in they send someone out to look for you.

Thats a company but still in a area such as alaska surely you'd have a budy system...ie you'd call on arrival

PS the RUD grip chains have arrived........

 

[jhmover]

I personally think people make much ado about nothing over bumpers. As previously noted, if the frame folds up, then whatever bumper you have doesn't really matter. You could be like my oldest son who rear ended a pickup truck and his Volvo bumper went under the pickups bumper, so having a bumper in that case was a moot point because the front grill, headlights, radiator, fenders and hood took all the damage and the bumper is fine. Didn't hurt the pickup one bit.

Great that perhaps you whack a tree at 5 MPH with an RTE bumper and no damage, then hit the same tree with another brand and it folds up. But I'd bet you hit that tree going 60 MPH it's not going to make any difference because the whole front of the truck will fold up anyway. I know because I survived a head on collision in my D2 last year. Combined speed was equivalent to 65-70 MPH. Yes my ARB bumper folded up, so did the rest of the front end. Buckled the frame, hood, fenders and moved the whole front end (including the dashboard) back about 2-3 inches. I don't care what bumper I'd have had, it would have been destroyed, and the front end would have buckled anyway. I never would have driven it home much less around the block.

While I feel for the guy dying, even when I go up to the Sierras (like yesterday I had to go to Tahoe on business), I take some extra water, some food, sleeping bag and a daypack with some warm clothes, first aid kit, and other misc. survival gear that's in the daypack, cell phone, CB radio. If I break down, run off the road, get stuck in a snowstorm I at least have a minimal amount of gear to ensure I can live a few days and not freeze to death, or walk out if I can.

I'd make a guess that living in Alaska (or anyplace else with bad weather) that people get used to it (weather) and become complacent about it, forgetting that getting stuck in a ditch could kill you if you don't have some survival gear.

 

[95.D1.Rick]

You are connecting two ideas, that really are completely separate issues. Whats the strongest bull bar/bumper for Moose/Caribou strikes, and how does one survive a vehicle breakdown in the wilderness. Really, one has little to do with the other. Save the money for the bumper and buy/keep some winter camping, survival gear in your vehicle. Slow down, light the road better from your vehicle. The higher vehicles seem to do better in Moose collisions in Maine, but you may still disable your vehicle when it damages your car a different way, by getting under your car, or by limiting your evasive ability because of your height. You hit anything weighing 1200lbs going 50mph and it there is some shocking damage potential, to alot more than what the bumper protects. You can be stranded and die just as easily with an inexpensive part failure, as an animal collision. Always being prepared for exposure in the worst conditions will go much farther towards staying alive than the right bumper.
As far as empirical data, there is researchable data from Moose - Vehicle collisions in Maine where there is approx 600 moose/car accidents per year and 150 deaths or serious injuries annually. Thats just Maine alone.

 

[Schattenjager]

Gosh - I just wanted this to be about the importance of accuracy vs. opinion in our posts, not this... Sorry I brought it up.
:banghead:

 

[rmuller]

Gosh - I just wanted this to be about the importance of accuracy vs. opinion in our posts, not this... Sorry I brought it up.
:banghead:

Don't apologize.. I think its a good thread.. I think it brings up an important issue too.. that no advice offered for free over the internet should considered a professional opinion and relied on for life or death situations.. Know the limits of your own equipment, contact the manufacturer if you have any doubts.

 

[BCDisco]

for a couple of years I drove a commercial truck between vancouver and whitehorse. On about year three, just north of Ft Saint Jhon, I hit an elk @aprox95kph. Comeing over a low rise, the elk jumped from the side of the road before I could brake. I mannaged to keep the rig on the road, and I think the only reason that the truck was not destroyed was the moosebar, and the trucks weight.
I was hauling a grossed out 53' dry van, weighing about 140,000#'s. hitting a 2000# elk with this thing, you have alot better chances then any 5000# suv/pickup. The truck, a 2000 western star, had a full moose bar like the one above, The elk hit the passenger side of the moose bar, and it basicly tore off the front corner of the moosebar/fender. The truck however, was (except for the aformentioned damage) mechanicly fine.
So I think that its important to remember, that hitting something that large @ highway speeds, how strong your bumper is will only have so much of an effect on the damage. I would submit that perhaps the largest factor is the weight of the truck.
And as an after thought, I would consider it almost essential to cary a vhf radio, blanket, food, water ect... Your a long way from anything up there, and its a good idea to keep that in mind.

 

[rovercanus]

This is a very good post and something I have thought of/stated in the past. You will get better information here then some other web sites. The actual experiance level here is very high as opposed to places like LRO where opinion is the rule of the day.
I've gotten good information here as well as some entertaining arguments.
It's tragic when someone perishes in circumstances like you have stated, but again some advance preperation would have maybe changed the outcome.
Sometimes opinion is based on inspiration, sometimes idiocy. It's up to the individual to sort thru it all.

 

[SCSL]

I know RTE is a huge favorite on this board and I have yet to see one in the flesh. However some of the stories I have read about them led me to think that they are mostly untested in sever, real circumstances.

I would disagree with that. First, there are enough RTE products in use that they are well-tested against trail damage. Second, I know at least two bumpers that were in traffic accidents where the owner sincerely felt the bumper saved his family's life. One of the bumpers was removed from the totalled vehicle & mounted on another truck.

I've seen both RTE & SG bumpers take hard rock hits with minimal damage. I've slammed down my SG skid plate with the full force & weight of the rig and had only a small dent at the point of initial impact on the rock. I can't comment on ARB, as I've honestly not seen many of them in action. I have, however, seen a few - and in all cases have seen them interfere with already limited approach angles on mildly lifted Discos & RRCs.

While your friends story is indeed tragic, and I'm honestly not trying to be an asshole at all, I'm surprised that he would have been alone in what was obviously a remote area without adequate food, shelter, communications, etc. I would think that would be the first rule of wheeling in Alaska, or any remote area. Just pointing it out...

 

[BaldEagle]

i'll chime in with the arb crash test. i know for a fact it will hold up perfectly when hitting a toyota camry at 25mph. thats not exactly hitting an elk, but i basicly ripped the ass off that car and didnt do anything to mine, not even a little bend. it also will cut right through 32 feet of vinyl fencing without any damage. (i need to scan a pic of when that happened, its hilarious). im not sure if any bumper will survive hitting an elk at high speed, it might as well be a car at that point. im confident that a deer or large dog will pretty much bounce off though. but the bull bar failure didnt kill the guy in alaska, it was ill-preperation. i dont even travel into the appalachians to go skiing without enough to keep me through the night, i mean, it is a rover.

 

[adamsclarke]

I would disagree with that. First, there are enough RTE products in use that they are well-tested against trail damage. Second, I know at least two bumpers that were in traffic accidents where the owner sincerely felt the bumper saved his family's life. One of the bumpers was removed from the totalled vehicle & mounted on another truck.

I think Steve has some pictures of that truck after it was totaled....the bumper bolted right up to the new truck.

I am no fear that if I get into an accident where my vehicle and my life were put in harms way....my RTE bumper would hold up just fine

 

[antichrist]

x2 on being properly equiped for the environment. How many here would strike out across the Sahara with no water? Driving in Alaska is no different. For that matter you could easily die of exposure if your rig broke down in some remote GA areas in the winter.
Only a complete novice, or complete ignoramous, would spend money on things like bull bars ahead of survival gear, if you're driving in a place where you could die of exposure.
I think a better thread would be "What survial gear is good to carry?" Not what bull bar will survive impact with a caribou.