How many of you would pay $15,000 for a billet Rover V8 block?

roverover

Well-known member
Feb 27, 2005
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Lancaster PA
www.UsedLandRoverParts.com
Cooling won't be improved with just the block build. It needs to have more cooling in the head area a Honda head has 24 coolant ports to the head RV8 has 2 this is limiting performance enhancement and longevity of even this hitech block

With the advancements in LS conversions hopefully to cost around $6-7k installed shortly the market will be small but realistically you will get you 15 Buyers
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
Don't MG's enthusiasts use the Rover V8? The pics I've seen seem to indicate they get all geeked up for stuff like this and may be another(if not your primary) audience.

Yeah, and there are a bunch of people who race them as well. Whether or not that's actually useful is another story. They'll have spent years favoring one process or another, and may not be interested in anything new.

The Rover stuff is still a good place to start, though.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
Cooling won't be improved with just the block build. It needs to have more cooling in the head area a Honda head has 24 coolant ports to the head RV8 has 2 this is limiting performance enhancement and longevity of even this hitech block

With the advancements in LS conversions hopefully to cost around $6-7k installed shortly the market will be small but realistically you will get you 15 Buyers

I don't see why these couldn't hit that price point eventually. The problem is getting "tooled up" and shoving it all in a computer, which is a royal pain in the ass. Once it's there, it's much easier to make.

Thermal capacity will be increased, as well as the overall strength of the block and, to a lesser degree, conductivity and surface area. I can't just go adding things that would prevent someone from using stock heads, but I can certainly use every little gram and millimeter I can find to stack up small effects.

Of course, I'd like to do heads, but they will be limited by similar factors. They'd be a heck of a lot more stable, though. I would imagine most people would either be putting out close to stock figures or stroking the engine. What's possible will depend on how the cooling system has to be set up.

Without personally really getting in there and seeing how it's set up from every angle, I can't go imagining drastic alterations. That's a better job for the people who'd be making it. Rover V8s (earlier units) are actually surprisingly tolerant of overheating given their mass; they just reach a point and it's like a switch flips. They didn't give a rat's ass what you did with them as long as they were putting out close to half what they are now.

The design was effective, but they were asking a lot trying to get that extra power out of the thing long-term. I'm not sure if it's still the case, but for some time it was the lightest full-production V8 in the world.

It's no accident that long-lasting engines tend to be cast iron and underpowered. A heavy block of iron that doesn't have to handle that much energy isn't under much stress. We can't do cast iron without fucking up the car, but we can certainly hit the next best thing; which has the potential to actually be a little better given the method of production. Even if it's not "better", it's a heck of a lot closer.

Moving to an iron block is damned near like shoving an average healthy person under the hood and driving around with that extra weight, depending on what you get. You've already got a winch and bumper up there on a near three foot lever in front of the axle, and some have more than one battery up there, as well.

You can say a lot of negative stuff about Land Rovers, but cornering balance is certainly no fault. Screwing that up would not be good.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

ERover82

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2011
3,899
450
Darien Gap
Forgot about the MG and Triumph crowd. Those are potential avenues. The thing to figure out, is that like GEMS vs Bosch, what's going on in the CPS area?
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
Forgot about the MG and Triumph crowd. Those are potential avenues. The thing to figure out, is that like GEMS vs Bosch, what's going on in the CPS area?

I don't know yet. It'll be a long process to ensure known issues that can be sorted reasonably are, and to ensure that everything is as compatible as possible.

The engine isn't even drawn, yet. That'll be when the money comes in. It'll be months of work to be sure it's ready to be modeled even as-is, and more after that to evaluate changes.

If you know of something you think is worth a little more head-scratching or is an easy compatibility alteration, let me know if you have time. The simplest thing to do is base it on the latest blocks, but if there's a change that won't affect that compatibility and will expand it elsewhere, that's certainly worth considering.

I don't know the differences between every part on every block just yet; but I will eventually.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
Early next year I'll have a much better handle on what these things will do when they're dialed in a little better.

I'm going for a full dynamic balance and blueprint (as well as possible, anyway; some specifications won't be easily available, and it's more about matching the engine to the engine itself than matching every single production demand) on my current engine, which will reveal a hell of a lot in regard to what changes over time.

Unlike seemingly everyone else, I'm going to be documenting every single change that occurred over time to the best of my ability and the shop's sanity, as well as general adherence to specifications and fit/finish, dyno testing before and after, and overall paying attention to the finer details. It'll cost about the same for that alone, but it'll satisfy a hell of a lot of my own curiosity and make me feel better.

More importantly, we'll have a great reference for effects of time, assembly, and heat cycling in an engine that's been run quite hard, was impeccably maintained, and even spent several years sitting. There's lots to learn in that regard; from warping to corrosion, to poor production consistency internally, to cracks behind liners. We'll find out one way or another.

It's a good thing that's on the schedule, because it'll be very useful in this process.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
Kennith, you missed your calling as a wedding planner.

Hell, I've got to start somewhere. This won't happen soon, as there's just plain too much to do.

It seems the best place to start the actual data collection will be pulling mine apart and really spending time determining exactly what happened over the years. That's just my expense. I'm doing it anyway.

After that, it's feasibility. The next step would probably be to get the original design modeled, which is going to involve ruining a few blocks, I'd expect. That's when the money comes into play, because now I'm using their time instead of mine. So, it makes sense to figure out as much as possible ahead of time.

So, why not have a bit of fun in the beginning exploring opinions and wants/needs? :)

Cheers,

Kennith
 

Swedjen2

Well-known member
Sep 12, 2018
594
127
California
Kennith, you missed your calling as a wedding planner.
Not bad.

So Kennith, do you have an engineering skill set are you bring to the table, besides boundless enthusiasm and a gift of communication?
Are you providing the fab shop the prints? Sounds like you are at least familiar with one of the CADDs systems. Which one? How many years?
You know, a Cirriculum Vitae, as it were.
 
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robertf

Well-known member
Jan 22, 2006
4,778
354
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Time and effort would be better spent on head redesign

All of the aftermarket options are for high flow high rpm stuff. A cylinder head with modern chamber shape and ports designed for low speed atomization would be awesome.

I guess with rover being a smallish company and the v8 market a fraction of total sales they never saw the point, but look at the vast improvements of late 90s cylinder heads of similar vintage domestic v8 engines
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
Not bad.

So Kennith, do you have an engineering skill set are you bring to the table, besides boundless enthusiasm and a gift of communication?
Are you providing the fab shop the prints? Sounds like you are at least familiar with one of the CADDs systems. Which one? How many years?
You know, a Cirriculum Vitae, as it were.

Check your PM thing in a bit.

There is legitimately no reasonable way for me to answer your question in it's entirety here. I'm complicated. My skill-set is whatever it needs to be, and I bring whatever needs to be brought to the table. The longest it takes me to learn a new industry is about a week; but I can shrink it by applying contextually relevant previously assimilated information in real time. I will expand as required, but I've certainly no intent on paying someone that much money if they can't at least replicate an engine (to a serviceable degree) without my help.

I've no intention of pocketing any money or leading their internal project.

So far as my familiarity with the processes, software, and machines, I'm out of date. The last time I touched anything like that I was using MS-DOS on my main computers. I've been demanding others to do that part for me since the day I realized I could get away with looking over someone's shoulder instead of sitting in front of a monitor. :ROFLMAO:

I can brush back up, but I'd rather not. I spend enough time on computers already. I'll do it if I have to, though.

The "alterations" in which I'm personally interested revolve largely around the improved material, radiation and conductivity, dimensional stability, and distribution of mass. That's where I'd prefer to stay, and most of that is a problem that's already solving itself by moving from cast to billet. I'll do what needs to be done, but at this time I don't even know what I'll need to know... As soon as I do, I'll assimilate what's required and make it happen.

Nothing can happen, however, until numerous blocks are observed very carefully for the effects of time and use, as well as model the engine. The same goes for determining how it's got to be made.

There is a limit to what a manufacturer is willing to put up with when it comes to this stuff, and we're also limited by the inability to perform numerous long-term tests, compatibility issues, and the overall engine design; which indeed is a good design. It just comes from an era in which it was just two more cylinders to make people feel better.

It was a V8 for people who could only afford a V6; little more than a Buick marketing move. It was not intended to be a powerful engine, and I'm sure nobody at Buick thought it would remain in production from late 1961 until what... 2006 or so? When did they stop with the "Coscast" stuff, anyway? I really wanted one of those.

The amount of time required to fully develop the Rover V8 and reclaim 45 years of what amounts to stagnation would cost millions.

Things that will be altered are generally going to be related to the change in production process. Some stuff is easily sorted without a hassle, but other things affect expansion characteristics unevenly, and that's when you'll end up having to test things beyond reasonable capacity. I can't add five pounds of aluminum to one corner and just expect it to be good, as an example; or enlarge certain passages without having to consider what else happens.

It's not my purpose, anyway. I'm not going to pay someone that doesn't already know how to make a V8, and I wouldn't suggest anyone else pay them, either. I'd pay me if it had to be done, but I don't intend to let anything go that far. If I've got to be the brain in the room, that's when the cash flow reverses or I just go home and watch cartoons.

I grew tired of having to tell people how to do their jobs long ago, unfortunately. I certainly don't intend to do this myself without bringing in some people I already trust to consult alongside me; people who are reliably running trash can lid-sized twin turbo setups on old 3.5 blocks; people who go out and break them, people who are curious enough to have actually paid attention to what's happening in these things, and people who have spent lots of time already improving things quietly.

That starts with looking at newly identified faults and working with them to come up with solutions.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
Time and effort would be better spent on head redesign

All of the aftermarket options are for high flow high rpm stuff. A cylinder head with modern chamber shape and ports designed for low speed atomization would be awesome.

I guess with rover being a smallish company and the v8 market a fraction of total sales they never saw the point, but look at the vast improvements of late 90s cylinder heads of similar vintage domestic v8 engines

That's a big factor, certainly. It's a separate project, though. Thankfully, heads aren't often extremely expensive. It won't be cheap, but it's not going to be fifteen grand, either, because there are companies that specialize in custom heads, they're easy to test, and complicated machining processes don't have to be figured out. Regardless, yes, I do want to work on the heads in the future. We need a block to put them on first, though.

The heads may restrict the engine a bit, and may need some extra meat, but the actual "problems" that are happening are related to the block. We need a foundation that will make the best of custom heads and take the output; but remember you don't have a drive-line that will tolerate everything you might want.

I'm not cool with the Wildcat heads. They can say what they like, but until they stop dodging questions about power bands, they can keep the fucking things. If they want to send me a set, I'll test them on a brake nearby and release the numbers, but I'm not paying for them. Hell, I might even like the things, but that's not a good enough reason to buy them.

That's what I don't want; questions about performance and reliability. All those years of development my ass. If that was true, you'd have some actual performance figures; the defense that there are "so many configurations" doesn't hold water with the Rover V8. Even if there were, you'd better have a PDF of plenty of tests on file, or I'm not interested at all. Indeed, it pisses me off.

That's complacency, and it needs to be extricated from common knowledge as quickly as possible if anything is to improve. It's holding us back.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
Two chances Kenny. Slim and None. Slim just split.

Obviously that's the case here, but this is a great place to get holes shot in the idea, which should almost always be step one. There may be a few interested parties. One way or another, I'd like to get some new blocks out there that won't suffer the same issues. This just seems the most logical place to start.

Even if I just flat-out purchased the rights and tooling, that wouldn't give us anything we don't already have; they'd simply be new. It makes far more sense to start from scratch with superior materials that will take what it's already got and make it last longer and be more resistant to sealing issues. The objective is a 500,000 mile block. It may need a rebuild as anything else before that point, but simply due to wear; not to dropped liners, corrosion, cracks, and leaks.

I expect the main interest is going to come from racers overseas and the high-dollar "factory correct" restoration crowd. People will either want something more tolerant of higher power output, or just a good way to keep that $80,000 Defender on the road.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
I wish I could’ve mastered CFD in a week

Eh, my brain works in mysterious ways. I'm addled, dyslexic, and generally thinking in twenty directions at once, but once the gears mesh I'm quite useful.

I simply don't stay interested in a project beyond a certain point.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

fishEH

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2009
6,927
201
Lake Villa, IL
None of the trucks this 500,000 mile blocks would fit in will ever see anywhere close to that. The D90, RRC, D1, and soon D2 will all be collectors vehicles soon.
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
None of the trucks this 500,000 mile blocks would fit in will ever see anywhere close to that. The D90, RRC, D1, and soon D2 will all be collectors vehicles soon.

It doesn't really matter how many miles they see.

It's about owner confidence and availability in the long-term. Unless something is done, twenty years from now you'll be paying fifteen grand for the same rebuilt engines you're getting today; except they'll all be approaching forty years old. You don't want that, I don't want that... Nobody wants that.

Cheers,

Kennith