How many of you would pay $15,000 for a billet Rover V8 block?

[kennith]

It's light, simple, torquey, is ready to go without custom work, and is part of LR's history. The value of that is subjective.

Absolutely. It is indeed a matter of subjectivity.

I've always loved that feeling that if you push it any farther, you're going to take flight. It really does feel like an old prop plane heading down a runway, and comes close to sounding like it with the right tires and exhaust, as well as a rack on the roof.

It builds power very smoothly, and rolls off very smoothly. In that respect, it's quite a classy engine; but it does have a bit of an attitude. It's like the runt of the V8 litter with a chip on it's shoulder, cruising for a bruising.

Now, weight gets into objectivity. We already have trouble finding whatever springs we like, and many of us have a bumper and a winch up there already. Some have two batteries, and most have one. Land Rovers are balanced well with that engine. It does change quite a bit in the handling department moving to a heavier engine that high in the air.

You don't need much more weight to feel it. I wouldn't say it's an issue without a winch and bumper, but once you've added that, it can indeed become one.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[kennith]

TA is go fast race stuff

low speed atomization is whats needed, not high flow

You might want to drop them a line. I just did, and they're quite knowledgeable and willing to discuss dragging that power band back down.

They gave me a resource to contact, and once I've done that I'll shoot an e-mail back with my updated concerns.

There's no free lunch when it comes to this stuff, and you're going to have to give to get, but what you have to give is becoming a little more clear now.

It's nice to have a better idea of what these things are doing and how they were constructed internally. That's not something you can see on a website.

He was quite happy to discuss the added meat in the part, though. I was happy to hear that.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[Tugela]

The uniqueness of Rovers has nothing to do with their POS engines.

This is a thread about the Rover V8, but the engine that I most closely associate with Rovers is the 200/300TDI. Maybe that's because I came of age, learned to drive, and spent a fun chunk of time during the mid and late 1990s in southern Africa where those engines were commonplace. Regardless of any objective measurement, the 300TDI is my all-time favorite engine in any vehicle. It's slow, the power is anemic, and if you want to overtake a semi truck on the highway you have to make reservations 2 days in advance and get a mile run at it. All that being said, it's definitely not a POS. It is pretty darn reliable, it has no electronics, and it can be serviced in any dusty little village. It won't run on crude oil pumped straight from the ground like the Toyota 1HZ engine, but it isn't nearly as picky as the newer CDIs that require ultra low sulfur diesel.

The 300TDI is fun in a very different way from the Rover gasoline engines. Peak torque is at 1,800 RPM. Slow speed control is unmatched. Its sound is absolutely musical (to my ears, at any rate). And you can drive 500+ miles without refueling. I particularly enjoy the kind of driving to which the 300TDI is ideally suited. Slow and steady, just burbling along.

If I had $15,000 to spend on an engine conversion I'd put a 300TDI in my Disco without hesitation. I enjoy my D1 and RRC plenty with their V8s, but there is no substitute for the driving fun of a turbodiesel paired with the R380. In my book, at any rate. Most people whose main experience in Rovers is with the RV8 have a less than favorable opinion of the 200/300TDIs, but for much of the world that was the defining engine for Landies.

 

[kennith]

This is a thread about the Rover V8, but the engine that I most closely associate with Rovers is the 200/300TDI. Maybe that's because I came of age, learned to drive, and spent a fun chunk of time during the mid and late 1990s in southern Africa where those engines were commonplace. Regardless of any objective measurement, the 300TDI is my all-time favorite engine in any vehicle. It's slow, the power is anemic, and if you want to overtake a semi truck on the highway you have to make reservations 2 days in advance and get a mile run at it. All that being said, it's definitely not a POS. It is pretty darn reliable, it has no electronics, and it can be serviced in any dusty little village. It won't run on crude oil pumped straight from the ground like the Toyota 1HZ engine, but it isn't nearly as picky as the newer CDIs that require ultra low sulfur diesel.

The 300TDI is fun in a very different way from the Rover gasoline engines. Peak torque is at 1,800 RPM. Slow speed control is unmatched. Its sound is absolutely musical (to my ears, at any rate). And you can drive 500+ miles without refueling. I particularly enjoy the kind of driving to which the 300TDI is ideally suited. Slow and steady, just burbling along.

If I had $15,000 to spend on an engine conversion I'd put a 300TDI in my Disco without hesitation. I enjoy my D1 and RRC plenty with their V8s, but there is no substitute for the driving fun of a turbodiesel paired with the R380. In my book, at any rate. Most people whose main experience in Rovers is with the RV8 have a less than favorable opinion of the 200/300TDIs, but for much of the world that was the defining engine for Landies.

That's the other half of the coin. It's a different, yet still unique way to enjoy the same vehicle. It takes on an entirely different personality.

If I had another DII and didn't have any emissions concerns, I'd love to have one. If I ever buy a D1 to keep it'll absolutely end up a diesel.

Imagine, then, that the same issue was present in the 200/300TDI engines, it had persisted, and no new blocks were available. Would you just swap to a heavier Chevrolet diesel, or attempt to find a more factory solution to keep the vehicle as similar as possible to it's original feel, or simply to replicate the factory configuration. What if emissions were a concern?

If this thread was about those engines instead of the Rover V8... Would your conclusions be any different? As a side question, what if the Rover V8 was as solid as the TDI, and I stepped in to suggest it would make more sense to just ditch the diesel; would that suggestion be tempting?

I'm genuinely curious; not trying to argue about anything. It just popped into my head.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[ptschram]

I spoke with Kennith last night.

I don't want to piss on the campfire, but this is reinventing the wheel, and it's been done.

W/R/T TA heads, I have repeatedly been told more were gonna be made, but they needed folks to pony up the $ ahead. I have called, emailed, sent smoke signals indicating I had Federal Reserve Notes to spend, but nobody wanted my money

W/R/T cooling, the answer is quite simple, PWM driven electric pumps. I have one in my shop (no, I don't know where) and someone else has an even higher flowrate pump waiting to get to that point.

W/R/T to blocks, first off, for $15,000, I can have a single block made. If two, $10,000, if three, $5,000. It is not realistic to expect 20 blocks to cost $300K. If one is having 20 made, the price is gonna crash!

Secondly, there is math data to make them from billets, but the guy who did it is nearly impossible to contact. In my case, once again, with cash in hand, he won't respond to emails. When is the last time any of us heard a busy signal? If I call outside of Kommiefornia business hours, the phone rings and rings. If I call during Kommiefornia business hours, I get the busy signal.

Speaking of dinosaurs, not only will this gentleman not answer emails, FaceBook PMs, the phone, when is the last time any of you wrote a letter by hand, and used the USPS to deliver? I wrote this gentleman a letter and he wouldn't even respond to THAT!

Kenny Duttweiler has built Buick engines from billet and has done silly things with them like run Bonneville!

HE has the math data to make the blocks, I have $, but he won't reply.

I had a contact in SOCAL who offered to visit when next in Kenny's village, but he moved to SEATAC to make the big buck$.

As a result, last year at PRI I spoke with a group out of OZ who gave me the above pricing. I'm really excited about this year as I intend to place orders for rods and pistons finally-after nearly 20 years of cyphering! Yes Virginia, you CAN have higher displacement RV8s, they will henceforth be called RV8$ though!

We CAN have billet blocks, all it takes is a little $. Now that my life has somewhat stabilized, I'm hoping to maybe have a billet block, but in the meantime, I have recently obtained an automatic boring machine (Kwik-Way FS if anyone is curious), I have a dyno (the room for which is slowly progressing), and I now work at a machine shop (but not one capable of making billet blocks-BUT, I can do just about anything else in-house now) where I can finish the block work I can't do at home-one of the specialties of the shop where I work is align-boring

If anyone is nearby, Kenny's shop is located at:
Duttweiler Performance
1563 Los Angeles Ave
Ventura, CA 93004

In the event anyone can speak with him, please tell him the guy who wrote him a hand-written letter sent you and I still want two blocks, but I want the water jackets continuous between the inner cylinders and I want to fit liners with an OD of 4.190". Having the head bolt thread bosses integral with the main webs would be a nice touch as well. Let me know how it goes, and once he provides a written quotation, I will wire transfer him the $ for two blocks.

 

[ptschram]

FWIW-I did a 300 job a while back. The labor side was $6000, ups and extra ran it up to $9100 all told. The owner is OVER THE MOON with it!

I just quoted a 300 swap in a Defender for $5K, but it has a diesel in it currently, just naturally aspirated.

I have a TD5 in the shop now, it is gonna be a challenge.

I love diesel engines in my tow rig, I prefer the truck in the trailer to be gasoline powered.

 

[kennith]

Thanks for the call. I came to the same conclusion about the electric pump for your purposes last night, actually. Wouldn't be the right choice for me, but it makes sense for the engine you'd like.

I'll try and get up with some of these people and see if I can get any information.

I just want to clarify to people that I'm not Kenny Duttwiler, though. Different Kenny.

Edit: Got in contact, and I have a very interesting rabbit hole to jump down. We may actually be able to get a new casting... We shall see. I need to have my thoughts in better order before I contact the new names, but I'll be doing it soon.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[kennith]

If there is a point at which I decide I'd like to just go ahead and take lead and work with someone who's already been there to get it done and resell them, I will be absolutely up front about it, but it'll be a long project involving quite a bit of testing if I do that.

That is not my intent, but if it can't happen any other way, I may take that step just to make it happen at all. It'll be many months before I know whether that's something that would have to occur.

Make no mistake, this is not a short-term affair either way. No matter what happens or does not happen, the result isn't likely to appear in less than a year, and production will add time to that; probably another year.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[ptschram]

There are guys on FaceBook who have new CosCast blocks

All the way from raw castings to fully machines and ready for your rotating assembly

Duttweiler has done it, but I’ll be damned if I can get him to talk to me

Take my Money!!!

 

[kennith]

There are guys on FaceBook who have new CosCast blocks

All the way from raw castings to fully machines and ready for your rotating assembly

Duttweiler has done it, but I’ll be damned if I can get him to talk to me

Take my Money!!!

He didn't seem to mind me much, but I'm a little better at dialing back on intensity than you.

He indicated that someone else was responsible, as he didn't really have cause to mess with it; the same person who designed other engines and parts for other people. I want to confirm some of that and be sure it's allowed to be publicly posted before I relay any of it. I also need to be sure I interpreted his information correctly.

If Coscast blocks are available new on Facebook, I want to get with you to arrange a purchase; so I'll drop you another line sometime, but I did send some e-mails this morning about the other stuff, so feel free to shoot me a link. I want a new block to build an engine myself as a side project for fun and part security in the long-term, and those are supposed to be good.

I'd love to drop some top hats in a brand new block and go from there. I don't have a Facebook account, though.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[robisonservice]

When we started to build engines with flanged liners ten years ago, that put an end to the problem of cooling systems getting pressurized by combustion gas going around the top of the liner and into the cooling system through cracks under the head bolts. We weld up the cracks per my articles, but what cracked once will crack again, so we needed the flanged liners too.

Then Land Rover stopped buying good quality stretch head bolts. The cheap Chinese bolts break and stretch and that started to cause failures so we went to ARP studs.

The latest thing we are seeing is that head gaskets are blowing out the fire rings into the intake valley or above the exhaust manifold, so they get loud like an exhaust gasket blew but it's the head gasket. We are not sure why that is happening but suspect a cheapening of the head gasket material and we're looking at going back to the 80s steel gaskets.

Some of you noted the inherent cooling weakness of these motors. I do not know what we can do to change that. On Defenders we are making higher capacity aluminum radiators to shed heat, and we add electric fans that improve flow overhead original. We have not had a lot of call for that on Discovery but can do it there.

I still think the factory motor is the best bet. If you are in a place that allows it, you can reduce heat by removing the cats, but the underwood temps on these trucks are not as high as, say, under the hood on a new Chevy V8. They just are not as rugged. But a change to a Chevy motor is a huge amount of work, if done well, and the labor to do a good job, combined with all the fabrication, makes that far more costly and usually less reliable, unless you can do it all yourself.

We are still seeing a steady stream of these rebuilds. People are starting to see the Discovery II as a family-friendly alternative to a Defender, and it can be fully redone for a fraction of the price. So we're doing them for Long Island, Nantucket, the Cape, etc.

 

[kennith]

When we started to build engines with flanged liners ten years ago, that put an end to the problem of cooling systems getting pressurized by combustion gas going around the top of the liner and into the cooling system through cracks under the head bolts. We weld up the cracks per my articles, but what cracked once will crack again, so we needed the flanged liners too.

Then Land Rover stopped buying good quality stretch head bolts. The cheap Chinese bolts break and stretch and that started to cause failures so we went to ARP studs.

The latest thing we are seeing is that head gaskets are blowing out the fire rings into the intake valley or above the exhaust manifold, so they get loud like an exhaust gasket blew but it's the head gasket. We are not sure why that is happening but suspect a cheapening of the head gasket material and we're looking at going back to the 80s steel gaskets.

Some of you noted the inherent cooling weakness of these motors. I do not know what we can do to change that. On Defenders we are making higher capacity aluminum radiators to shed heat, and we add electric fans that improve flow overhead original. We have not had a lot of call for that on Discovery but can do it there.

I still think the factory motor is the best bet. If you are in a place that allows it, you can reduce heat by removing the cats, but the underwood temps on these trucks are not as high as, say, under the hood on a new Chevy V8. They just are not as rugged. But a change to a Chevy motor is a huge amount of work, if done well, and the labor to do a good job, combined with all the fabrication, makes that far more costly and usually less reliable, unless you can do it all yourself.

We are still seeing a steady stream of these rebuilds. People are starting to see the Discovery II as a family-friendly alternative to a Defender, and it can be fully redone for a fraction of the price. So we're doing them for Long Island, Nantucket, the Cape, etc.

Yup, and I intend to bring my factory engine up to snuff as we've noted.

Even so, pushing for some manner of new production to handle future issues has quite a bit of value. Billet, cast; it doesn't really matter as long as it's done properly this time around. Billet is typically going to be smaller run, though. Eventually, block selection will become more difficult as new problems are discovered and more age hits those on the road. The best time to start moving toward that goal is before procurement becomes an issue, rather than after.

Lots of shotgunning ideas going on here, but that's the point. It's easier to hash stuff out when bouncing ideas off others and freewheeling a bit. I don't intend to post anything particularly authoritative here, but if someone else wants to, all the better. We can at least learn some stuff.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[4Runner]

I think the new block is interesting. But I would hate to spend that kind of money only to bolt on those crappy heads and injection set up. I do have a question about the mention of balance that is thrown off by installing an LS. Yes it weighs more, but if you have a better rear bumper with a swing away tire carrier ( 32’s don’t fit in the back of a Classic very well ) or in my case you load up the back with a jack, tools, spare parts, camping gear or day trip stuff. I am pretty sure that my balance has gone to shit and is bias towards the rear. I worry more about center of gravity balance more which is effected some by a heavier motor I guess. Just a thought.

 

[kennith]

I think the new block is interesting. But I would hate to spend that kind of money only to bolt on those crappy heads and injection set up. I do have a question about the mention of balance that is thrown off by installing an LS. Yes it weighs more, but if you have a better rear bumper with a swing away tire carrier ( 32’s don’t fit in the back of a Classic very well ) or in my case you load up the back with a jack, tools, spare parts, camping gear or day trip stuff. I am pretty sure that my balance has gone to shit and is bias towards the rear. I worry more about center of gravity balance more which is effected some by a heavier motor I guess. Just a thought.

You're right.

To a degree it will be offset by a heavier rear bumper, especially given the mechanical disadvantage of the bumper being cantilevered so far away from the rear axle. Who fits a rear bumper without a front bumper and a winch, though?

Even if someone did, that doesn't change the fact that you are indeed adding weight; and right near the steering axle.

Obviously once you account for cargo that dials back the issue a bit, but Land Rover did indeed plan for that when they built the vehicle.

You have also hit the other point, though; which is how high the engine is mounted on that platform. That high in the vehicle, an increase in weight at the front end does have effects.

This is not directly applicable given the leverage involved, but here's a fun way to imagine what happens when increased mass is elevated:

In your mind, visualize driving a Discovery with a steel front bumper and a winch. Really feel it. Drive it around a winding road in the mountains, and know you are the only entity on that road. Imagine pushing that thing as hard as you like around those curves with no threat of consequence. Let that stick in your mind for a bit.

Now, imagine that winch bumper is mounted a foot higher, and start again.

Visualizations are fun.

Of course, that scenario is not applicable.

I don't think most people would find the handling difference objectionable. The conversion takes time, as well, and it'll be a while before they drive it with the new engine. Add to that the immediate power and mileage increase, and I think it's most likely that they won't even notice. Some would, but they're not the sort to do that conversion to begin with.

It would irritate the shit out of me, though.

As for the heads, I would suspect any buyers would want to have their own heads made or go with available performance units rather than use what they already have. There's too much personalization in there. The block is just an engine block, and the real tailoring happens in the heads. If you're paying that much for a block, I should hope you'd want heads made your way or the highway.

So, I don't think it's super important to have a bunch of heads made on a $15,000 block run. That cost drops over time, though; and can drop pretty darn far. Popular billet blocks can be had for less than rebuilt Rover long blocks. I would hypothesize that the things would settle in around $7,000-$9,000 if they were successful.

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[JohnnoK]

I don't see why not. At least one person here already has a roller setup in his RV8. Now, how much work did it take? I've no idea.

Bolt on, by my understanding. Maybe with minor work, but doable.

Roller Rocker Sets - ROVER - 3500cc - 3900cc V8 - yellaterra

store.yellaterra.com.au

 

[JohnnoK]

W/R/T TA heads, I have repeatedly been told more were gonna be made, but they needed folks to pony up the $ ahead. I have called, emailed, sent smoke signals indicating I had Federal Reserve Notes to spend, but nobody wanted my money

I can't speak for the TA heads, but this guy can speak for the Wildcat heads... just not very politely...

Porous head? - The V8 Owners Forum -

www.v8forum.co.uk

 

[robisonservice]

We have built engines with aggressive porting and higher lift roller cams. The problem with those is that you reduce reliability in favor of increased power. What a lot of people overlook is that a Chevy conversion reduces reliability too, because the adaptive components needed to put the motor in the Rover are nowhere near as reliable as the package was in the original Chevy. The fact is, any handmade custom is going to be less reliable than a high production vehicle from an automated debugged assembly line.

No Land Rover has ever approached the reliability of a Chevy 2500 truck and that is why.

At this time, the supply of engine blocks is adequate. In my experience with Rolls Royce (where we also build a lot of engines) what I see is that most older RR cars are run down, and when the engines wear out or fail, the cars are parked. The number of people willing to put $50k into an overhaul is very limited, and there are plenty of parked cars from which to pull motors. So even if you have to go through three blocks to get a good one, they are out there. I suspect the same will happen with Rover as there are a ton of abandoned or soon to be abandoned Disco I and II models, and relatively few people who wish to invest the money to fix one

In my earlier post I noted the rebuilt DII is a cheaper and family friendlier alternative to a Defender, but most people will just buy a modern car, like a Denali or a Land Cruiser, for similar cost. The number of DI and DII restorers is always going to be small.

So I don't think we will have an engine block shortage for a long time

 

[ptschram]

Bolt on, by my understanding. Maybe with minor work, but doable.

Roller Rocker Sets - ROVER - 3500cc - 3900cc V8 - yellaterra

store.yellaterra.com.au

I thought you meant roller lifters!

I have a roller rocker setup on my
4.6 for Theseus

Complete with bespoke length pushrods and through-pushrod oiling even

 

[kennith]

I thought you meant roller lifters!

I have a roller rocker setup on my
4.6 for Theseus

Complete with bespoke length pushrods and through-pushrod oiling even

What are your observations and opinions in regard to that oiling alteration and the rollers in general?

Cheers,

Kennith

 

[ptschram]

What are your observations and opinions in regard to that oiling alteration and the rollers in general?

Cheers,

Kennith

I don’t know yet

I want to finish the dyno