So I bought a 3.9 from Elias & John for my 95 SWB with approx 40k miles when my few month old "new to me" rangie died. The deal was, the previous owner blew the motor from neglect at 60k and it was replaced with a ?NEW? factory unit. With now an approx 100k miles, I bought the engine. Supposedly with copious service records following the installation because the PO had learned their lesson. While the motor was out, I replaced the valley gasket, water pump and t-stat for good measure.
During the installation, the torque converter got dislodged. Once I got everything buttoned up and the timing close enough to run?No tranny. Very unfortunate, but it?s probably not the first time in history that has happened. If it is the first time, cool I get the title!
Naturally that killed the moment and I now needed to track down a tranny. After talking to a few people, I went back to Elias & John and bought the tranny that went with my engine.
I had AAA flatbed my truck down the road to out local rover shop for the tranny install and get the timing dialed in.
So Monday evening, April 20th, I get to go pick it up. I drive it home, about 2 miles and back it in the garage so I can do a final fluid check and get the tranny fluid level dialed in over the next couple days.
I get home Wednesday to hopefully add my last bit of tranny fluid and I noticed after it had been running for a while; the upper hose was rock hard. Concerned, I shut it down. Pulled the expansion cap and released an enormous amount of pressure. I fired it back up with the cap off and the expansion bubbled like I was blowing hard through a straw into a beverage.
So, Thursday morning, I emailed Elias to let him know there was a big problem. He inquired about the symptoms and responded as anyone would, ?believe me, I hear your frustrations and sympathize 100% and have your back either way?. I would agree we were both under the impression this should be a good motor and something silly must be going on.
His initial thought was maybe it was a bad valley gasket job (which makes no sense since we?re dealing with combustion in the cooling system, but whatever), water pump etc.
The next several months have been spent following their suggestions, doing anything and everything to find the issue as follows:
Pulled out t-stat.
Checked heater core, good.
Replaced all cooling hoses.
Replaced all vacuum lines.
New expansion tank & cap.
Replaced water pump 2x.
Swapped water pump pulley.
Swapped radiator 2x.
Replaced valley gasket 2x.
Vacuum test on cooling system - held 25lbs. Cold engine.
Vacuum filled system to remove possible air.
Leakdown test on cylinders, 40-50lbs ? nothing. Cold engine.
Coolant dye test - no dye in cylinders.
Temps normal at the dash gauge, with laser and with volt meter tester
No coolant leaks.
No coolant in oil/oil in coolant.
Combustion block test (the light blue stuff from Zone) inconclusive, slight color change.
Combustion block test (the purple stuff from Napa) immediate positive.
The one consistent factor is the combustion/bubbling only occurs once the engine gets near operating temp, maybe 150+ degrees.
So now it?s June 30th. Lots of emails, time and money replacing already good parts, trying to convince them there?s a major problem. Their response at this point is ?All the issues you?re having were non existent when we tested it and drove it around for a little over a week with some trips pushing 30 miles in stop and go traffic despite it having been in a front end collision.?
Funny thing is, I?ve only had one issue since the very first day. Combustion in the cooling system.
To this day, the engine had NOT/does NOT get hot. Not sure what would happen if I drove it. Many occasions, they suggested I just go drive it.
Just wanting a solution, I email them back?
?My fear is even if I tear it down to the block and find blown head gaskets, we don't know why they're blown. Since the PO blew the engine at 60k, what happened on this one? The fact that I get gases after it warms up a bit, makes me think it's something worse.
Do you want to spend a bunch of money on parts to send me, ultimately to find there may still be a problem? If I tear it down to rebuild, the heads would have to be tested and resurfaced.
Realistically, I think we need to come up with a replacement or refund. You're more than welcome to give me a shout.?
They said no.
Finally around August 15th, they send me a head gasket kit and here?s where it gets interesting!
We pulled the heads with a few interesting observations.... We only had to "break" maybe 5 of the 20 bolts, otherwise they just came right out. No biggie. One passenger side bolt was about 1/4" shorter, with a much bigger head, probably 2 sizes. (and for good measure they used a washer too!) Took heads to the shop?.. The head with the mystery bolt was warped, more than .004 in some areas and had already been shaved in the past. The other head was fine, still with factory machined surface. (Last I checked, aren?t both heads supposed to be machined the same?)
Oh, yeah, one last little detail..... someone had used stopleak in the engine.
And yes, this is the same ?NEW? factory unit with copious service records following the installation because the PO had learned their lesson, I mentioned at the beginning.
Let?s continue, shall we?
Ok, so we?ve uncovered some serious issues that could definitely cause my problem. So they refused to cover the cost of getting their heads leveled and pressure tested. Therefore, to avoid spending more money, I used a set I had that were already level and tested. Makes sense to me.
So I complete the head gasket job, fires right up. Within a few minutes, the bubbles come rolling in.
At this point, I?ve had it. So I email them ?it must be a block or liner issue. Someone in its ?40k? miles had clearly been in this engine trying to correct a major problem. (and a piss poor attempt at that)?
Whether they knew it or not, the engine they sold me is bad and they owe me a refund or replacement.
Before I continue, let me remind everyone that, yes, the torque converter was dislodged which messed up the pump on the initial install. In that case, I must drool and piss myself on a regular occasion.
Now, besides multiple insults on my mechanical skills (because replacing good parts with good parts didn?t fix the problem) they suggested I part the engine to get some of my money back. Oh yeah, along with selling my parts I have around the garage. So?I should sell their bad block, bad head and whatever else along with my stuff (heads etc) to get my money back? Really? I think I have an old TV and fishing rod I could sell too.
Yeah, that didn?t really work for me.
So they said ?What else, then, is there to do? Send us the motor back in original condition?
I said, sure, but I?ll be pulling my heads (because they?re good) and I?m not paying $250-$300 for the shipping again.
The response was ?I?m sorry but if you would like a refund, it is FINANCIALLY UP TO YOU TO SEND IT BACK. If you do not, we cannot help you. If you do not restore our motor to its original running condition, we will have to do it once it is here and your refund will be MINUS THE COST of our having to do a head gasket repair.
Therefore, if you choose to send it in pieces, you paid $500. less $240 materials, less $200 in machine work and your total refund will be $60.
Those are our terms. Nothing else will be accommodated. We're looking forward to receiving it and evaluating it for you.?
That?s when I called them cheats and liars and poor representatives of the land rover community.
Their final crowning jewel came on Friday?.?You claim you wanted to do the h/g repair and try your hand at it? We backed you up and sent you what you needed. What did you do? Use parts from a previously blown up motor to rectify the problem. You modified something of ours instead of sending it back. THERE IS NO WAY ANYONE would take back a motor under those circumstances and we still kept the door open for you to send it back to us to inspect, test and replace or refund.
Neither of us are cheats, nor liars and maybe one day you'll realize that it?s your own problems that create the frustrations in your life.
You have refused to uphold your end to return us the motor and we therefore consider this case closed.
Best of luck to you. You will no doubt need it.?
Ok, I laughed a little on that one. Yes, I must have rebuilt the engine with just the right parts so it would do the exact same thing. It?s funny, they?ve never once acknowledged that maybe they could have overlooked something. I agree, the engine sounds nice, and doesn?t overheat.
I?ve spent a ton of time and money just to make sure the problem wasn?t something silly or overlooked.
If you haven?t figured it out, I?m f_cking pissed and have the right to be. The problem was identified and reported from day one. The original install was done with a rover mechanic and myself. I?ve had multiple mechanics and very qualified people (since I?m not) at my house trying to figure out if I put the wrong air in the tires.
I?ve got 106 emails backing up everything since day one. They have them too. I would have been extremely happy to get a low mileage engine at a great price. That?s not what I got.
These are probably the last two people I would have expected this from. What does everyone think?
During the installation, the torque converter got dislodged. Once I got everything buttoned up and the timing close enough to run?No tranny. Very unfortunate, but it?s probably not the first time in history that has happened. If it is the first time, cool I get the title!
Naturally that killed the moment and I now needed to track down a tranny. After talking to a few people, I went back to Elias & John and bought the tranny that went with my engine.
I had AAA flatbed my truck down the road to out local rover shop for the tranny install and get the timing dialed in.
So Monday evening, April 20th, I get to go pick it up. I drive it home, about 2 miles and back it in the garage so I can do a final fluid check and get the tranny fluid level dialed in over the next couple days.
I get home Wednesday to hopefully add my last bit of tranny fluid and I noticed after it had been running for a while; the upper hose was rock hard. Concerned, I shut it down. Pulled the expansion cap and released an enormous amount of pressure. I fired it back up with the cap off and the expansion bubbled like I was blowing hard through a straw into a beverage.
So, Thursday morning, I emailed Elias to let him know there was a big problem. He inquired about the symptoms and responded as anyone would, ?believe me, I hear your frustrations and sympathize 100% and have your back either way?. I would agree we were both under the impression this should be a good motor and something silly must be going on.
His initial thought was maybe it was a bad valley gasket job (which makes no sense since we?re dealing with combustion in the cooling system, but whatever), water pump etc.
The next several months have been spent following their suggestions, doing anything and everything to find the issue as follows:
Pulled out t-stat.
Checked heater core, good.
Replaced all cooling hoses.
Replaced all vacuum lines.
New expansion tank & cap.
Replaced water pump 2x.
Swapped water pump pulley.
Swapped radiator 2x.
Replaced valley gasket 2x.
Vacuum test on cooling system - held 25lbs. Cold engine.
Vacuum filled system to remove possible air.
Leakdown test on cylinders, 40-50lbs ? nothing. Cold engine.
Coolant dye test - no dye in cylinders.
Temps normal at the dash gauge, with laser and with volt meter tester
No coolant leaks.
No coolant in oil/oil in coolant.
Combustion block test (the light blue stuff from Zone) inconclusive, slight color change.
Combustion block test (the purple stuff from Napa) immediate positive.
The one consistent factor is the combustion/bubbling only occurs once the engine gets near operating temp, maybe 150+ degrees.
So now it?s June 30th. Lots of emails, time and money replacing already good parts, trying to convince them there?s a major problem. Their response at this point is ?All the issues you?re having were non existent when we tested it and drove it around for a little over a week with some trips pushing 30 miles in stop and go traffic despite it having been in a front end collision.?
Funny thing is, I?ve only had one issue since the very first day. Combustion in the cooling system.
To this day, the engine had NOT/does NOT get hot. Not sure what would happen if I drove it. Many occasions, they suggested I just go drive it.
Just wanting a solution, I email them back?
?My fear is even if I tear it down to the block and find blown head gaskets, we don't know why they're blown. Since the PO blew the engine at 60k, what happened on this one? The fact that I get gases after it warms up a bit, makes me think it's something worse.
Do you want to spend a bunch of money on parts to send me, ultimately to find there may still be a problem? If I tear it down to rebuild, the heads would have to be tested and resurfaced.
Realistically, I think we need to come up with a replacement or refund. You're more than welcome to give me a shout.?
They said no.
Finally around August 15th, they send me a head gasket kit and here?s where it gets interesting!
We pulled the heads with a few interesting observations.... We only had to "break" maybe 5 of the 20 bolts, otherwise they just came right out. No biggie. One passenger side bolt was about 1/4" shorter, with a much bigger head, probably 2 sizes. (and for good measure they used a washer too!) Took heads to the shop?.. The head with the mystery bolt was warped, more than .004 in some areas and had already been shaved in the past. The other head was fine, still with factory machined surface. (Last I checked, aren?t both heads supposed to be machined the same?)
Oh, yeah, one last little detail..... someone had used stopleak in the engine.
And yes, this is the same ?NEW? factory unit with copious service records following the installation because the PO had learned their lesson, I mentioned at the beginning.
Let?s continue, shall we?
Ok, so we?ve uncovered some serious issues that could definitely cause my problem. So they refused to cover the cost of getting their heads leveled and pressure tested. Therefore, to avoid spending more money, I used a set I had that were already level and tested. Makes sense to me.
So I complete the head gasket job, fires right up. Within a few minutes, the bubbles come rolling in.
At this point, I?ve had it. So I email them ?it must be a block or liner issue. Someone in its ?40k? miles had clearly been in this engine trying to correct a major problem. (and a piss poor attempt at that)?
Whether they knew it or not, the engine they sold me is bad and they owe me a refund or replacement.
Before I continue, let me remind everyone that, yes, the torque converter was dislodged which messed up the pump on the initial install. In that case, I must drool and piss myself on a regular occasion.
Now, besides multiple insults on my mechanical skills (because replacing good parts with good parts didn?t fix the problem) they suggested I part the engine to get some of my money back. Oh yeah, along with selling my parts I have around the garage. So?I should sell their bad block, bad head and whatever else along with my stuff (heads etc) to get my money back? Really? I think I have an old TV and fishing rod I could sell too.
Yeah, that didn?t really work for me.
So they said ?What else, then, is there to do? Send us the motor back in original condition?
I said, sure, but I?ll be pulling my heads (because they?re good) and I?m not paying $250-$300 for the shipping again.
The response was ?I?m sorry but if you would like a refund, it is FINANCIALLY UP TO YOU TO SEND IT BACK. If you do not, we cannot help you. If you do not restore our motor to its original running condition, we will have to do it once it is here and your refund will be MINUS THE COST of our having to do a head gasket repair.
Therefore, if you choose to send it in pieces, you paid $500. less $240 materials, less $200 in machine work and your total refund will be $60.
Those are our terms. Nothing else will be accommodated. We're looking forward to receiving it and evaluating it for you.?
That?s when I called them cheats and liars and poor representatives of the land rover community.
Their final crowning jewel came on Friday?.?You claim you wanted to do the h/g repair and try your hand at it? We backed you up and sent you what you needed. What did you do? Use parts from a previously blown up motor to rectify the problem. You modified something of ours instead of sending it back. THERE IS NO WAY ANYONE would take back a motor under those circumstances and we still kept the door open for you to send it back to us to inspect, test and replace or refund.
Neither of us are cheats, nor liars and maybe one day you'll realize that it?s your own problems that create the frustrations in your life.
You have refused to uphold your end to return us the motor and we therefore consider this case closed.
Best of luck to you. You will no doubt need it.?
Ok, I laughed a little on that one. Yes, I must have rebuilt the engine with just the right parts so it would do the exact same thing. It?s funny, they?ve never once acknowledged that maybe they could have overlooked something. I agree, the engine sounds nice, and doesn?t overheat.
I?ve spent a ton of time and money just to make sure the problem wasn?t something silly or overlooked.
If you haven?t figured it out, I?m f_cking pissed and have the right to be. The problem was identified and reported from day one. The original install was done with a rover mechanic and myself. I?ve had multiple mechanics and very qualified people (since I?m not) at my house trying to figure out if I put the wrong air in the tires.
I?ve got 106 emails backing up everything since day one. They have them too. I would have been extremely happy to get a low mileage engine at a great price. That?s not what I got.
These are probably the last two people I would have expected this from. What does everyone think?
