Iraq - Be Careful What You Ask For

MarkP

Well-known member
Apr 23, 2004
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I can imagine the Democrat faces when they found out this would be put to a vote.

IT'S A GO: IRAQ WAR SHOWDOWN IN CONGRESS: VOTE ON TROOP PULLOUT

". . . . Rep. John Murtha, a hawkish Democrat with close ties to the military, said the time had come to pull out the troops. . . . . "

Well he said this over a year ago. Why all the LSM hype now? Guess we will find out who has balls and who is all talk. Put up or STFU.
 

Bannon88

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Nov 3, 2004
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Mark,

The Dems will be scrambling like cockroaches when the light is turned on.

Let's see what Kerry does, he ask if he can vote twice. One for each face. His short one and his long one.
 
K

KEJ

Guest
Mark, Rep. Murtha said this yesterday and got smeared all day today. I'm watching C-Span right now as this is being debated, and if you have an honest bone you will acknowledge that the vote tonight is NOT about what Rep. Murtha proposed yesterday. He proposed a DISCUSSION about a withdrawal, and today the Republican proposal is for an immediate vote on an immediate pull out. NOT the same thing, so don't try to say it is. It's absolutely disgusting how this true warrior has been smeared. FOR SHAME.

KJ P.S. My husband suggests that everyone who is so keen on this war should "suit up".
 
K

KEJ

Guest
Bannon88 said:
Mark,

The Dems will be scrambling like cockroaches when the light is turned on.

Let's see what Kerry does, he ask if he can vote twice. One for each face. His short one and his long one.

Brian, I suggest you flip on C-Span and see for yourself.

KJ
 

RBBailey

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Jul 26, 2004
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Uh, I can understand opposing the war. But I can't quite figure out the idea of pulling out before the job is done.

I know for a fact, directly from the mouth of one involved, that the resentment for Clinton was profound when he pulled out of Somalia. Not only that, but there is strong evidence that it was one of the main reasons OBL decided that all out war against the U.S. would actually work. After all, it was he who planned and financed the Black Hawk Down incident.

Cutting and running is a mistake.
 

JeffM

Well-known member
Apr 20, 2004
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New Hampshire
Karen has a point - Not that I'm a Dem (anyone that knows me, knows that I'm far form one) - however the current pseudo Repulicans even went as far as smearing one of their own (McCain) in order to forward their own ends. So I rest on what I have said previously - Republican or Democrat it doesn't really matter - the ownly good politician is the one that is hanging high from a lamp post along with the Lawyers and at least some of those in the medical business (yep I'm including docs in that one).

JMHO

Sorry if it offends anyone - but after all isn't that what democracy is all about - having your own opinion.

Jeff
 

RBBailey

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Mid-December withdrawl is not considered immediate to you? That is what Murtha said on CSPAN Tonight! In fact, that is the only part I actually sat and watched, I just kept it on the the back ground otherwise. He specifically called for a withdrawl immediately after the Mid-December election. You must not know much about what it would take to get the troops out.
 

noee

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Apr 20, 2004
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Free Union, VA
Sorry if it offends anyone - but after all isn't that what democracy is all about - having your own opinion.

...and perhaps more importantly, having the abililty to voice that opinion without harmful repercussions to you and your family.
 

vray

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Apr 5, 2005
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WRV, Idaho
Putting a resolution forward asking for a vote on leaving Iraq now is just another senseless move to avoid a debate. No one is asking for instant withdrawal (except the Repub proposal, but I realise it was a diversionary tactic)). There is nothing wrong with an open and honest debate about this war, and everything right about it. I know why they are scared of a debate, but they need to put everything aside and put country first. Victory in Iraq and a graceful exit is the goal. Screw all this "stay the course, we know what we are doing" bullshit. This "anyone with an opposing opinion is anti-American" crap. If your not with us, your with them. Fuck them, that is such crap. They've had enough time to show their ability to handle the issue. I'd say it was anti American to not want to debate it.

James Madison:

Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people. . . . [There is also an] inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and . . . degeneracy of manners and of morals. . . . No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare. . . .

Theodore Roosevelt, prior to the First World War in 1918:

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."

During the Second World War, Senator Robert Taft:

'I believe that there can be no doubt that criticism in time of war is essential to the maintenance of any kind of democratic government..... Too many people desire to suppress criticism simply because they think it will give some comfort to the enemy.... If that comfort makes the enemy feel better for a few moments, they are welcome to it as far as I am concerned because the maintenance of the right of criticism in the long run will do the country more good than it will do the enemy, and it will prevent mistakes which might otherwise occur."
 

RBBailey

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noee said:
...and perhaps more importantly, having the abililty to voice that opinion without harmful repercussions to you and your family.


True -- although, I have to admit, I can't remember the last time I, or anyone I know, was threatened by anyone in authority for voicing their opinions. And I am a public school teacher! (The lady with the Subaru with the Kerry sticker on the freeway the other day doesn't count.)
 

RBBailey

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RBBailey said:
Mid-December withdrawl is not considered immediate to you? That is what Murtha said on CSPAN Tonight! In fact, that is the only part I actually sat and watched, I just kept it on the the back ground otherwise. He specifically called for a withdrawl immediately after the Mid-December election. You must not know much about what it would take to get the troops out.

Last time I checked Murtha was the Dem in this debate. He called for immediate withdrawl. Period, end of that debate.

The Repubs called the Dems to the carpet for it, now you are calling foul because the House actually voted on something? Debate is good. But debate is nothing without a vote in this thing we call a Democratic Republic.

Now, on the other hand. "Staying the course" is getting old. It is pretty much a cop-out. Setting a withdrawl date (now or later) is certainly not the answer. I mean common. If you were a terrorist in Iraq, and you heard that the withdrawl date was set for a year from now, wouldn't you just bide your time? They are not fighting only against the Americans. It is the Suni's trying to start an all out civil war between Iraqi's reguardless of the Americans being there or not. The idea that we should hand it over to the new Iraqi Govt. is a nice idea, but it doesn't hold water. Remeber 1975? You Dems like to compare this to Vietnam so much, well, lets just pull out and see how much like Vietnam it becomes.

What needs to happen is that we need to have a plan for victory. A set goal. Now maybe Bush has one, and maybe he doesn't know left from right in Iraq. But he obviously knows one thing, and that is that pulling out is stupid. We need a plan that involves the quick and violent deaths of the people who are creating the problems over there. Right now, as far as the war effort is going, we are playing Politically Correct "Go Fish" When we should be playing Strip Poker.

This is the first thing in a while that I've actually been happy with the Republicans doing. And notice the vote count -- 3 Yea! This blew up in the Dems' face and you know it. They didn't think the Repubs would have the balls to call a vote, and they were wrong. End of story.
 

vray

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Apr 5, 2005
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WRV, Idaho
Murtha did not call for an immediate withdrawal. Read what he said yourself, don't take anyones word for it.

Let's see. Who else is calling for a withdrawal? No, not the U.S. commander in Iraq, General Casey:

<i> The top U.S. commander in Iraq has submitted a plan to the Pentagon for withdrawing troops in Iraq, according to a senior defense official.

Gen. George Casey submitted the plan to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. It includes numerous options and recommends that brigades -- usually made up of about 2,000 soldiers each -- begin pulling out of Iraq early next year.</i>

Republicans need to stop blocking debate on this war.
 

flyfisher11

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May 25, 2005
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vray said:
<i> The top U.S. commander in Iraq has submitted a plan to the Pentagon for withdrawing troops in Iraq, according to a senior defense official.

Gen. George Casey submitted the plan to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. It includes numerous options and recommends that brigades -- usually made up of about 2,000 soldiers each -- begin pulling out of Iraq early next year.</i>

Republicans need to stop blocking debate on this war.

Where to start? Who is this "senior defense official"? Give me a break. I'm so sick of leaks. If you can't state who these sources are then quit spreading the rumors. "Well the Washington Post or the New York Times said it, it must be true"

Rumsfeld wouldn't be doing his F'ing job if he wasn't dynamic in his approach to things. One has to constantly be looking at strategy. Unfourtunately some is driven by politics, but that is the way this country is run. Don't like it vote 'em out or move out!

Cheers,

Mike
 
T

TexanLR

Guest
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051119/ap_on_go_co/congress_iraq

Latest news on it, quote from the article:

At one point in the emotional debate, Rep. Jean Schmidt, R-Ohio, told of a phone call she received from a Marine colonel.

"He asked me to send Congress a message ? stay the course. He also asked me to send Congressman Murtha a message ? that cowards cut and run, Marines never do," Schmidt said. Murtha is a 37-year Marine veteran and ranking Democrat on the defense appropriations subcommittee.

Democrats booed and shouted her down ? causing the House to come to a standstill.

ok, now that I have a chance to actually expand on this:

Funny how a "Marine colonel" has the audacity to call Murtha a "coward" without giving out his name. Call me nuts, but if you're going to call another Marine a coward, you do it to his face.

This was just "politics as usual" If you harcore Reps. want to close your eyes and pretend that they were just calling out the Democrats on their bluff, then you're fucking retarded. It was just a politically expedient move to buy more time and not pick up their balls and debate about this.

It's like a page out of the Karl Rove book o'bullshit, and you know that this is going to be thrown all over the place during midterm elections. Instead of offering actual solutions, we're going to fall back to the same "flip flop" finger pointing crap.

Really, since when has dissent and debate become unpatriotic and unAmerican?
 
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MarkP

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Apr 23, 2004
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Colorado
KEJ said:
Mark, Rep. Murtha said this yesterday and got smeared all day today. I'm watching C-Span right now as this is being debated, and if you have an honest bone you will acknowledge that the vote tonight is NOT about what Rep. Murtha proposed yesterday. He proposed a DISCUSSION about a withdrawal, and today the Republican proposal is for an immediate vote on an immediate pull out. NOT the same thing, so don't try to say it is. It's absolutely disgusting how this true warrior has been smeared. FOR SHAME.

Oh, I would say Murtha is pulling a Murtha on his own stance. AlJazeera interpreted the position as a pullout of Iraq. Do a google search on AlJazeera, Murtha, etc. The rest of the world knew exactly what this was all about, cut and run. It's sad to see the Democrat party use Amercan lives for political gain. They were there right up to the invasion, all the way through the Clinton administration, building the case for war. Leadership takes character and the Democrats are severly lacking in this area.


What If the French Had Pulled a "Murtha" in 1781?

There was an appalling lack of historical perspective in the House debate Friday night on the Murtha Resolution. It called for the immediate withdrawal of American troops from Iraq (to a safe haven from which they could return). What would have happened to the United States, had France held a similar debate in 1781?

Let?s set the stage. The American Revolution was then four years old. French officers and soldiers under the leadership of General Lafayette, had fought along side General Washington. The French fleet under Admiral de Grasse had recently entered the conflict, and blocking the mouth of the Chesapeake Bay.

General Washington cornered British General Cornwallis at the small Virginia town of Yorktown. But, if France had its Assembly then, how might the debate have gone? We take our script from the debate a small number of Americans just watched on C-SPAN. . . . .
 

JeffM

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Apr 20, 2004
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New Hampshire
Mark - You mean the French didn't surrender ;)

On a more serious note though - I believe it isn't just the bulk of Democrats that are lacking in character, personally I think the bulk of the current crop of Republicans lack character as well.

Jeff
 

vray

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Apr 5, 2005
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WRV, Idaho
MarkP said:
Oh, I would say Murtha is pulling a Murtha on his own stance. AlJazeera interpreted the position as a pullout of Iraq. Do a google search on AlJazeera, Murtha, etc. The rest of the world knew exactly what this was all about, cut and run. It's sad to see the Democrat party use Amercan lives for political gain. They were there right up to the invasion, all the way through the Clinton administration, building the case for war. Leadership takes character and the Democrats are severly lacking in this area.


What If the French Had Pulled a "Murtha" in 1781?

There was an appalling lack of historical perspective in the House debate Friday night on the Murtha Resolution. It called for the immediate withdrawal of American troops from Iraq (to a safe haven from which they could return). What would have happened to the United States, had France held a similar debate in 1781?

Let?s set the stage. The American Revolution was then four years old. French officers and soldiers under the leadership of General Lafayette, had fought along side General Washington. The French fleet under Admiral de Grasse had recently entered the conflict, and blocking the mouth of the Chesapeake Bay.

General Washington cornered British General Cornwallis at the small Virginia town of Yorktown. But, if France had its Assembly then, how might the debate have gone? We take our script from the debate a small number of Americans just watched on C-SPAN. . . . .

For all the freaking out about Murtha, and the fake "pull the troops out now" bill, the reality is that the Bush Admin will begin withdrawing troops after the december elections. But it won't be called cut and run I guess. Hopefully not "mission accomplished" either. The only war the republicans know how to fight is the one against the democrats.

Sorry, the freerepublic has no credibility, find a better source.
 

Joe P

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Nov 29, 2004
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KJ P.S. My husband suggests that everyone who is so keen on this war should "suit up".

Been there done that! It would be irresponsible of us to pull out at this point in the war. If we pull out we will be doing just what the enemy said we would do. The problem with the US is that the majority of people just don't have the stomach to fight a war properly and through to completion.
 
T

TexanLR

Guest
MarkP said:
Leadership takes character and the Democrats are severly lacking in this area.

And surely, the Republicans are oozing with character. Rove, Frist, DeLay... yup, the GOP sure is a prime example of character.

Please, someone has to get the ball rolling on this debate sooner or later. This whole "stay the course" bullshit has gone far enough. There needs to be an exit plan, and if the Republicans would not go through these antics instead of actually debating, we might get somewhere.

A dumbass vote isn't going to do anything. All it's going to do is give the Republicans ammo for a smear campaign during the mid term elections. It's going to be another year with "flip flop" this and "flip flop" that. And as usual, the answer to "What's your plan for ____?" is going to be met with "WELL, MY OPONENT VOTED AGAINST, BUT CAMPAIGNED FOR IT!!" and nothing will get done.

Also, look at the polls, the majority of the American people believe that this was a war under false pretenses, the majority of them believe we dont' need to be there, and the majority of them disaprove of the current administration. To pull these stupid 3rd grade charades is a disservice to the American people.

This is going to be something hard to talk about, yes, but it needs to be talked about, period.
 
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Xanthro

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Oct 25, 2005
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RBBailey said:
Last time I checked Murtha was the Dem in this debate. He called for immediate withdrawl. Period, end of that debate.

Untrue. Which leads to the question as to how you came to this conclusion.