Ironman 4x4 Buyer Beware

[D Chapman]

On October 29, 2013 I purchased an Ironman 4x4 Ice Cube 74Q refrigerator/freezer from Justin Monnin at Lucky 8 4x4. The fridge arrived in satisfactory time although it did have a baseball sized dent in the rear of the fridge near/over some louvers that allow air in for cooling/breathing purposes. The dent was no big deal to me but I did share with Justin how the fridge looked once it arrived. I did not feel there was any reason to replace the fridge as the damage was not a big deal to me and only comedic, but the olive branch was extended. I was in a time crunch for the fridge anyway.

Fast forward to March 29, 2015. The fridge quit cooling. The motor/compressor was running but the fridge was not cooling like it should. So I reached out to Lucky 8 4x4. First, I texted Justin Monnin. Justin never responded. So I sent Erik a text. Erik did respond but told me they no longer deal with Ironman 4x4. So I followed up with a phone call to Erik during business hours and gathered any information I could about Ironman 4x4 and their current state in North America. Erik gave me a non-working number to call. It took a bit of research but I finally got in contact with John Love who claims to be an Ironman 4x4 North America dealer. Here is John's information.
John Love
Ironman 4x4 America, Inc.
2700 E 9th St. Ste. 400
Newberg, OR 97132
USA
971.264.9016

Our conversations started off like any other warranty conversation. Here is a transcript of the emails we sent each other back-and-forth.

Daniel,

Thank you for the pleasant albeit short conversation this morning.
I understand your Ice Box has a running motor, but the unit is not actually cooling.

Original purchase was 10/29/2013 from Lucky 8 Offorad.
If you would please make a copy of your original purchase so I can proceed with your request.

--
Best Regards,

John Love

John asked for a copy of the invoice so I sent that to him.

Daniel,

Thanks for the invoice. The warranty for fridge components is three years. With the purchase date of October 2013 you are within that warranty request period.

To honor the warranty you will need to ship your fridge to us, along with the accessories (power cord etc) at your expense. We will then evaluate the fridge and if we find it is not working and has not been abused we will repair or replace the fridge at our descretion and mail it back to you at our cost.

If you wish to proceed, let me know and I will generate and issue you an RMA number.

Yes, let's move forward.

Sent from my iPhone

Daniel,

RMA# 16-789

You can mail it to:
> Ironman 4x4 America, Inc.
> 2700 E 9th St. Ste. 400
> Newberg, OR 97132
>
> We will let you know when it comes in and try to get it resolved for you as quickly as we can.

Ok, very good. I'll get it packed up and may have it out the door today.

Thanks

Dan,

We received your Fridge. There appears to be damage to it.
I do not know if there was damage to it prior to shipping it to us, or if the damage happened as a result of shipping it to us. But the condition in which is was received shows signs of being dropped and that will void the warranty.

Our shop rate is $75/hr.

Would you like us to continue forward with the diagnosis?

This is when things started going downhill. The fridge was broken when I sent it to John Love and Ironman 4x4. I was not going to pack up a fridge and spend the $60 in shipping fees if the fridge was not broken. That should be obvious.

Additionally, $75hr to figure out why the fridge is not working when this is a warranty claim?

My response:

Hi John,

I do not know the extent of the damage you're referring to. Could you snap a photo and send it to me for reference? There was, however, a baseball sized dent in the rear-right of the fridge located near the louvers. This is how I received the fridge new and that damage was disclosed to Lucky 8 4x4 who was at the time the North American dealer. The fridge worked fine so we agreed to accept the fridge as-is. If there is additional damage we need to make a report to the shipper (UPS) as there was insurance on the fridge.

As for your shop rate of $75hr, it is my understanding that the fridge is still under the manufacturer warranty. It states clearly on the Ironman website a 5 year warranty on the compressor and 3 year warranty on the components. Since you are the North American distributor and not a third-party repairman I see it as a bit unfair to charge to fix your product. If I buy a new car that has a warranty and a part fails I do not pay the labor for the repair. Similarly, if I buy a fridge at Lowes or Home Depot and it fails under the warranty period I'm not required to pay additional for the repair.

Additionally, as far as diagnosis is concerned, there are only three parts on the fridge that can fail; the digital thermostat (that will not change from C to F as advertised), the power supply, or the compressor. There were no E-codes present. Obviously the thermostat and power supply are in working order, so that leaves the swing-arm compressor. I don't understand what there is to diagnosis. The compressor runs but does not cool, and seeing that the cooling system in these things is all sealed and sold as one unit the problem is quite obvious. Could you further explain what you would be looking for?

-Daniel Chapman

Dan,

I am attaching photographs of the received item. If you have photos prior to shipping you may want to contact UPS.

I am bothered you just now are telling us,
" There was, however, a baseball sized dent in the rear-right of the fridge located near the louvers. This is how I received the fridge new and that damage was disclosed to Lucky 8 4x4 who was at the time the North American dealer."

This was not mentioned to me prior to shipping, nor is anything noted on the original invoice.
I wrote to you prior to proceeding with the Warranty Request,
"To honor the warranty you will need to ship your fridge to us, along with the accessories (power cord etc) at your expense. We will then evaluate the fridge and if we find it is not working and has not been abused we will repair or replace the fridge at our descretion and mail it back to you at our cost."

It would have prudent to notify us of this prior to shipping. And we expect a certain level of reasonable care to be provided when packaging the item for shipping. There is no power cord with item and there was no protective covering for the item.

The fridge would be under the warranty; which includes a 5 year warranty on the compressor and 3 year warranty on the components, if there is no evidence of abuse. In its present condition the dents indicate some type of abuse occurred at some time.

Regarding diagnosis, I am not the repair technician so I do not know exactly what tests or procedure will be followed. Which why I ask if you would like us to move forward with testing and repair.

First and foremost, Mr. Love want to chage me a "shop rate" of $75hr to look at the fridge. Then he tells me he has to send the fridge out to a repairman to look the fridge over. So which is it? Is he charging me the shop rate of $75hr, or is he charging me a 3rd party fee? I'm not so sure that's not an FTC violation as it should be considered a cash advance and advertised that way.

These are the photos John Love sent me of the fridge. the first photo was the existing dent. This dent has been there since I received the fridge from Lucky 8.

There were, however, two new dents in the fridge that occurred during shipping by UPS.

Looks like the fridge took a tumble for sure. Good thing it's made out of steel.

John,

The dent on the rear of the fridge was there when I bought the fridge. This dent was reported to Lucky 8 4x4 where I purchased the fridge. I received a call back from a guy named Eli, who introduced himself as the representative for Ironman 4x4 North America. He went on to tell me he was related to the owner of the business in Australia. I do not have Eli's last name and the phone number I had written down for him is no longer working.

You are right there is nothing noted on the invoice about the dent in the rear of the fridge. Personally, I've never even heard of a vendor doing this. I could have Lucky 8 4x4 send you a letter if that helps.

The dents pictured on the bottom of the fridge and on the front of the fridge are new.

The fridge was in non-working order when I sent it to you and the new dents would not have further broken the fridge - they're purely comedic.

The power cord is inside the fridge.

There was no mention in your prior emails or in our telephone conversation about a $75hr repair fee. That's not how things typically work regarding warranties and this is totally unexpected. Typically a vendor takes responsibility for the products they sell when they offer such a warranty.

Since you're unfamiliar with the basic operation of the Ironman fridge, I can tell you how they operate. I have repaired similar refrigerator/freezers in the past. I also own similar products marketed by Engle and ARB. They all use the same parts including the Danfloss compressor. There is one moving part in the swing-arm compressor to fail. However, the company that makes these cooling systems sells them as one unit so replacing the compressor only would not be cost prohibitive. You replace the entire cooling system which includes the compressor. It takes about 20 minutes to swap out. Replacing the compressor only would require specialized tools and new refrigerant. It's a waste of time and a waste of money to pay someone to do this. I would expect someone who sells these items to be knowledgeable in their operation and construction. If you're interested in seeing the parts located on the inside here is a link to short write-up I did in September to my 13 year old Engle fridge. http://www.expeditionexchange.com/forums/showpost.php?p=49196&postcount=22

I really does boggle my mind that the fridge needs to be sent away for someone else to look at. If you plug the fridge in you will see that it does not operate the way it should. There are very few parts inside the fridge to make it stop working and the problem is self-explanatory.


-Daniel Chapman

I did not hear anything back for four days. Today I get an email from a Mark Hawley. Mark claims to be the President of Ironman 4x4 America. Here is Mark's information (same as John's):

Mark Hawley
President
Ironman 4x4 America, Inc.
2700 E 9th St. Ste. 400
Newberg, OR 97132
USA
971.264.9016

Dan

Your warranty request has been escalated to me. I am the president of Ironman 4x4 America, Inc. the North American Distributor for Ironman 4x4 for the last two years. I wish to get this resolved for you. John our Technical Sales Support personnel you have been working with has been trying to be of help the best he can within the confines of what is acceptable for Warranty. There is a training opportunity here regarding offering repair work, at the same time when a customer feels there is still an open and live warranty. It gets confusing to any customer at that point. To serve you better John should have been more direct as to the status of your warranty claim being accepted or denied. The power cord not with your unit is the 12v cord, again miscommunication and another training opportunity for clarification.

Your warranty request is denied due to physical damage. The physical condition the refrigerator returned to us is extremely poor with excessive physical exterior damage in multiple locations. Drops and impacts are not covered and will void the warranty. The documentation you have provided does not support pre-existing damage. If there was documentation from Ironman 4x4 USA. Inc. the previous distributor, it would be very unusual as Ironman 4x4 takes great care in how items are packaged. I see in John's phone notes from speaking with you prior to you returning the item he explained physical damage from impacts/dropped would void the warranty. You indicate the item received additional damage in shipping it back to us. The person returning an item is responsible for how an item being returned is packaged, shipped and if shipping included insurance. In our evaluations for warranty we have to go by the physically condition an item returned to us is in.

Your diagnosis of 12v refrigerators is generally accurate however the #1 fail point for most is the temperature probe. A bad probe leads to everything running but nothing cooling. General rule for compressors are if they are running then the issue is not the compressor and to look elsewhere.

Thank you,

Mark Hawley

Mark tells me the number one component to fail is the temp probe. So it sounds as though the Ironman fridge fails regularly and the temp probe is the main culprit. I wonder what this part costs? Less than $50? Less than $20? Who knows at this point. I don't know what the temp probe looks like inside the Ironman as I've never opened it up. But if the temp probe looks anything like the temp sensor inside the Engle fridge it looks like this (the black wire with white connector). So it's probably a very cheap part.

My fear when the fridge stopped working was that a copper cooling line cracked and released the refrigerant. Since the fridge was still under warranty I did not want to open the fridge up and possibly void the warranty that way. So that's why I sent the fridge back to Ironman. If, in fact, the problem is with the temp sensor, or probe as Mark calls it, and not the actual cooling system, these guys are going to void a warranty for a $10 part? And then charge me $75hr to diagnose and repair the problem from a 3rd party?

Personally, I can't say I expected much. First I get the "wish there was something I could do" from Erik at Lucky 8 where I bought the item. Since they no longer sell the product they're no longer supporting the products they've sold. Typical of fly-by-night companies. Then I get to deal with all this over the last 30 days from a distributor I should have known better than ordering from in the first place. It's not the money, I've already ordered a $1,500 replacement. It's the service we receive from these shit companies these days. Ironman 4x4 is not the only shit company out there selling a knockoff item, but I'd imagine this is par for the course when dealing with these types of companies and their vendors. If you're looking to buy a new 12v fridge don't skimp out, buy an Engle/ARB.

With all this said it was the complete opposite experience when my 13 year old Engle died. I bought the fridge from Expedition Exchange. I sent a note to John Lee and he replied very fast with what needed to be done. I ordered the part needed after a short conversation and diagnosis with the sales rep and it arrived the very next day. Within 2 days my Engle fridge was back in working order. 2 days!

 

[Devildog01]

You should know better. Cheapfuck.

 

[Mongo]

Karma's a bitch…

 

[Tugela]

Dan, I would be equally dissatisfied with the resolution had this happened to me. Your communications to Ironman come across as being informed, patient, and civil. If everyone acted like this when they had a product return there would be a lot less heartburn in the world. From your perspective Ironman needs to iron out some of their customer service issues (training opportunity?). Yet as a dispassionate observer it seems each party involved here has valid points.

Why should L8 stand behind a vendor's product that they no longer sell, and therefore have no relationship with? It would have been above and beyond the call of duty for them to help, but what recourse do they have as a former vendor that you do not have as a customer? There's no leverage that L8 can exert in this situation. What could they have done that would have left you satisfied? What would have happened if L8 had reached out to Ironman on your behalf?

ring ring
"Ironman NA, this is John."
"Hi, this is Justin at Lucky 8. I used to be an Ironman vendor and I have a customer who bought an Ice Cube from me a couple years ago. The fridge stopped working and it's within warranty. What's the best way to get it fixed under warranty?"
"If you're no longer a vendor have the customer contact us directly."

There seems to be no dispute that the fridge was damaged in transit between you and Ironman. Only you know how protective the packaging was. Maybe someone at UPS dropped it on edge onto the rear step of a truck, who knows? If you have any recourse in this whole episode, it's with UPS. Submit an insurance claim for the value of the fridge.

And finally: a $1,500 replacement? I didn't even realize it was possible to spend that much on a portable fridge.

Maybe there is a different lesson here. Like use a Yeti cooler or get a different ice cube for the job.

 

[fishEH]

First, this item is sold by Ironman 4x4. Do they really expect them to get no dents at all???
Second, they didn't disclose the $75/hr shop rate and have pretty much admitted fault on that. I'd tell them to ship it back on their dime and you can both wash your hands of eachother. Then fix it when you get it back.
Third, that sucks ass that they are being bitches. But its Ironman 4x3 so I can't say I expected much else. And Eli's last name was Spigler or Speigler or something.

 

[K-rover]

First, this item is sold by Ironman 4x4. Do they really expect them to get no dents at all???
Second, they didn't disclose the $75/hr shop rate and have pretty much admitted fault on that. I'd tell them to ship it back on their dime and you can both wash your hands of eachother. Then fix it when you get it back.
Third, that sucks ass that they are being bitches. But its Ironman 4x3 so I can't say I expected much else. And Eli's last name was Spigler or Speigler or something.

Eli Spigler, but he doesnt work for them anymore...

 

[D Chapman]

Why should L8 stand behind a vendor's product that they no longer sell, and therefore have no relationship with? It would have been above and beyond the call of duty for them to help, but what recourse do they have as a former vendor that you do not have as a customer? There's no leverage that L8 can exert in this situation. What could they have done that would have left you satisfied? What would have happened if L8 had reached out to Ironman on your behalf?

It's par for the course. They specialize, it seems, in cheapfuck fly-by-the-night products. Then stuff like this happens. They'll sell anything until it's no longer beneficial for them to sell it and it's the customer who gets shafted.

For example. Remember Equipt? They sold shocks. I'm sure those shocks had a warranty. What happens now if your Equipt shocks fail and L8 no longer deals with that company? Someone may have purchased those shocks from L8 and the warranty was the selling point, just like the Rovertracks Axles. Wait until L8 and Terra Firma cuts ties. But now what? Same situation as me. L8 no longer deals with these products and the warranty is as good as the deleted website it was printed on.

So why should L8 stand behind the products they sold? I think the answer is obvious. However, that's not the case. It's not my fault L8 no longer carries Ironman. It's these customer service circumstances that people remember for a lifetime.....over a $10-$20 part.

 

[D Chapman]

Karma's a bitch…

Gives me a lot to do over the next few months. Been quite in here lately.

 

[discostew]

Sounds like a shit storm brewing.

 

[Devildog01]

Sounds like a shit storm brewing.

Patience my friend.

 

[Devildog01]

Eli Spigler, but he doesnt work for them anymore...

Nice guy with really great hair.

 

[fishEH]

That's stupid Dan and you know it.
If I buy a Dewalt drill from Home Depot and 3 years from now Home Depot doesn't carry Dewalt should I really expect them to assist in a warranty claim? No. In fact, a lot of products sold say DO NOT RETURN TO STORE right on the packaging.
You did the right thing by contacting Ironman 4x4 USA, they're just idiots.

It's par for the course. They specialize, it seems, in cheapfuck fly-by-the-night products. Then stuff like this happens. They'll sell anything until it's no longer beneficial for them to sell it and it's the customer who gets shafted.

For example. Remember Equipt? They sold shocks. I'm sure those shocks had a warranty. What happens now if your Equipt shocks fail and L8 no longer deals with that company? Someone may have purchased those shocks from L8 and the warranty was the selling point, just like the Rovertracks Axles. Wait until L8 and Terra Firma cuts ties. But now what? Same situation as me. L8 no longer deals with these products and the warranty is as good as the deleted website it was printed on.

So why should L8 stand behind the products they sold? I think the answer is obvious. However, that's not the case. It's not my fault L8 no longer carries Ironman. It's these customer service circumstances that people remember for a lifetime.....over a $10-$20 part.

 

[Tugela]

So why should L8 stand behind the products they sold? I think the answer is obvious. However, that's not the case. It's not my fault L8 no longer carries Ironman. It's these customer service circumstances that people remember for a lifetime.....over a $10-$20 part.

I have no horse in this race but as a former retail manager who had to deal with warranty returns on a regular basis, I can offer some experience from the vendor's point of view.

There's a limited market for these products. Multiple vendors are competing for business and one way to differentiate yourself as a retailer is to offer brands and products that are not widely available. Whether it's actually better or just cool because it's unknown, exlusivity has value. I worked in outdoor equipment retail. Any customer can walk into any store and buy a North Face jacket. But Rab? Westcomb? Mont Bell? Mammut? Cloudveil? Millet? These are specialized niche brands that are uncommon and my store carried them because across the street is REI, the Wal-Mart of outdoor clothing.

When a new brand/product comes to market it is by definition untested, or at least unknown. How does a mountaineering customer in my shop know that a $500 Mammut jacket is somehow better than a $500 Arc'teryx jacket? Just because it's popular in Europe? There's no anecdotal evidence to draw on and the shop employees haven't had a chance to use it yet, either (always a trusted source of information, at least at my shop).

If Ironman wants to break into the US market and Lucky 8 wants to offer a product that nobody else is carrying, why shouldn't they take a chance? Especially if the product is Australian and supposedly those Ozzies know a think or two about off-roading. And the brand has been around for a while. And every other retailer offers Old Man Emu and Blingstein.

How does Lucky 8 know in advance that a product is junk and they shouldn't waste their time? Ironman is a well established brand and their gear was everywhere in South Africa when I visited last year. People I know who use their products are satisfied. It doesn't seem like a wild gamble to carry their products as a vendor. But until you get feedback from your customers that products you sell are crap, you have no reason to stop being a vendor. Until you become a vendor you don't know if a supplier is going to be a dick, won't honor warranties, or fills orders incorrectly. Only Lucky 8 can speak to why they started and stopped selling Ironman. Maybe they don't stand behind the products they sold because they didn't realize the products were crap until they heard it from their customers. If that's what happened, then severing the relationship with a supplier is the right move.

 

[Mongo]

My take on this that L8 made a business decision and your throwing them under the bus for it...we all know you have hard on for them and take any opportunity to fuck them over while at the same time you'd lick the jizz off EE's ball sack the first chance you get. I can relate to your situation, but you're such a douche nozzle that you'll find little or no sympathy here...

I'm quite shocked you bought something that cheap, and in the end we've all found that when it comes to the "off road market" ultimately you get what you paid for...

so yeah, karma's a bitch

 

[D Chapman]

That's stupid Dan and you know it.
If I buy a Dewalt drill from Home Depot and 3 years from now Home Depot doesn't carry Dewalt should I really expect them to assist in a warranty claim? No. In fact, a lot of products sold say DO NOT RETURN TO STORE right on the packaging.
You did the right thing by contacting Ironman 4x4 USA, they're just idiots.

That's part of it. Dewalt is not going anywhere. They're like OME, they're always going to be there. I would not hesitate to buy a Dewalt product or an OME product.

But I have run into this situation you describe at Bed, Bath, and Beyond. I buy all my home electric items there. Their return policy is better than Costco. I bought a vacuum cleaner there once. I can't remember the name brand as it's be a really long time ago, but I think it was something like Hoover. It's was 12-amps, I do remember that. But BBB stopped selling that brand. The cashier gave me store credit for the full retail price of the vacuum to apply towards a new vacuum. I still shop at Bed, Bath, and Beyond.

 

[D Chapman]

My take on this that L8 made a business decision and your throwing them under the bus for it...we all know you have hard on for them and take any opportunity to fuck them over while at the same time you'd lick the jizz off EE's ball sack the first chance you get. I can relate to your situation, but your such a douche nozzle that you'll find little or no sympathy here...

I'm quite shocked you bought something that cheap, and in the end we've all found that when it comes to the "off road market" ultimately you get what you paid for...

so yeah, karma's a bitch

That's where you're wrong. I only point out the obvious. You will not hear me bash an Ashcroft product. L8 sells Ashcroft. If all L8 sold was quality items such as Ashcroft I would not have anything bad to say, unless, of course, they offered a 5-year unconditional warranty and the axle broke after a month and they would not warranty it. But L8 does not sell just Ashcroft. They also sell crap. Funny how everyone piled on DAP and Procomp shocks, but since you deal with L8 you have their back or something. It's nothing against Justin or Erik personally. I like Erik. I kind of like Justin. But there is a difference in a personal relationship and a business relationship. Some folks have a hard time separating the two.

EE on the other hand has given me very little to bitch about. I don't shop exclusivity with EE. In fact I think the only thing I've bought from EE in the last 5 years was a pair or wiper blades for the LR3. I've certainly dropped some cash with EE in the past but I'd hardly call that licking their balls. EE offers great service and they carry a quality product. They are a good company to support.

 

[fishEH]

You ever think L8 stopped dealing Ironman because it was crap?

 

[KyleT]

Did you buy it using a credit card with a warranty extension benefit?

 

[D Chapman]

You ever think L8 stopped dealing Ironman because it was crap?

Of course it was crap. You think I was expecting an Engle?

 

[D Chapman]

Did you buy it using a credit card with a warranty extension benefit?

I'm sure it was just my debt card.