new shackle

Jan 25, 2010
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your moms bed
FIVESPDDISCO said:
Funny thing about the internet, you never really know the guy on the other end.

photo-1.jpg

That is an excellent read.I have a new found respect for you sir.Even if you do sell shackles that will most certainly cause death to anyone who uses them.
 

LR Max

Well-known member
May 1, 2004
1,190
7
Hotlanta, GA
I'm interested for the above application with the 911 Classic; Using it to attach my tow strap to a non-off road vehicle.

When it snowed here (snowpocolpyse) I was pulling out cars left and right. Usually, I had to use a hook on the end of the tow strap as I couldn't get a shackle in there. I don't like using hooks and this would be a great solution for that.

As for concern over strength, its fine. If it breaks it has a lot less metal parts to go flying everywhere.
 

antichrist

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Sep 7, 2004
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LR Max said:
As for concern over strength, its fine. If it breaks it has a lot less metal parts to go flying everywhere.
Like breaking during a double line pull up a steep incline and your entire vehicle goes flying?

Maybe I'm wrong and it in fact does have some special properties that allows a person to ignore established safe rigging practices when using it.
 
antichrist said:
Like breaking during a double line pull up a steep incline and your entire vehicle goes flying?

Maybe I'm wrong and it in fact does have some special properties that allows a person to ignore established safe rigging practices when using it.

The soft shackle is more than just a hunk of rope. There is actually a little bit of science behind what appears to be a simple loop. The shackle is first made by splicing the rope and stitching it so the eye can only open far enough to allow the ball end through. Then it is stretched on a tensile tester to the Working Load Limit. This will set the knot end and prevent it from becoming untied. For added protection the shackle is then re-dipped in a polyurethane coating and a piece of nylon chafe guarding is added.
The 9mm ones that Lucky8 sells have been tested on a 50,000lb tensile tester. This machine is calibrated by a third party every year, in part because the manufacturer must keep its test equipment up to date to comply with their military contracts.

The 9mm soft shackle is rated for a Working Load Limit of 18,000lbs. Today I had a brand new soft shackle tested and it broke at 26,088lbs. That is like hanging more than another Land Rover off the shackle past its Working Load Limit.

One thing to keep in mind with these shackles or any synthetic winch line is that they do have a shelf life. The manufacturer did a simulated long-term test of the shackle and these were the results:
First it was cycled 200 times from 14,000lbs - 20,000lbs. No damage. This should be close to the maximum pulling power of a 9k winch connected to a snatch block.
Then they upped the pulling power and kept on going. It took 73 cycles in the 20,000lb - 25,000lb range for the shackle to finally break at 25,182lbs. Keep in mind that the shackle was not allowed to cool down after each test as it was cycled continuously to test its durability in being loaded and unloaded repeatedly.

Here is some quick math:
If you were to go out twice a month and use the shackle at its maximum rating twice each outing, it would take you just shy of 6 years to mimic our testing. Not bad for a $25 shackle.

video of todays test.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33ilXrijq1A&list=UUUnCLXtAqip_9qd-T1NenbA&index=1&feature=plcp

Todays test
shack.png


I hope this helps put to rest some of the concerns that some people have had.
 

garrett

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Jun 18, 2004
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seventyfive said:
scientific facts are used for design, testing is what makes a product. i prefer the latter approach. tell you what, next week i'll use your flimsy, failure prone, weak shackles with a chain (about the least kinetic recovery device out there) and yank on that little truck in the background and see what fails first.....i'm thinking my frame horns, but in theory it should be your shackles.
Image.jpg

Actually chain has about 4% stretch. True that chain is the very worst option to use in a recovery situation and never to be used in a dynamic (kinetic) recovery. Chain just isn't as strong as people think. But good ol boys dig it because it appears to be strong and tough - especially when it's all wrapped around their bumper.

Maybe we can get a few of these things and use them for a year and see how they wear. A year with us is like a lifetime with a recreational driver.

WLL is great and all in a static recovery, but we all know they won't be used for just static recoveries. How much stretch do these things have? Standard syn winch line is less than 1% for sure - thus why winch line is ONLY used in a static situation. Maybe it was posted up and I didn't see it. Kinda busy with my Air Hog choppers right now.
 
garrett said:
Actually chain has about 4% stretch. True that chain is the very worst option to use in a recovery situation and never to be used in a dynamic (kinetic) recovery. Chain just isn't as strong as people think. But good ol boys dig it because it appears to be strong and tough - especially when it's all wrapped around their bumper.

Maybe we can get a few of these things and use them for a year and see how they wear. A year with us is like a lifetime with a recreational driver.

WLL is great and all in a static recovery, but we all know they won't be used for just static recoveries. How much stretch do these things have? Standard syn winch line is less than 1% for sure - thus why winch line is ONLY used in a static situation. Maybe it was posted up and I didn't see it. Kinda busy with my Air Hog choppers right now.

I will send you a few. Please let me know that you think.
Pm me your address all I have is your ex-girlfriends ;)
 

hafaday

Well-known member
Oct 27, 2006
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Richmond, VA.
seventyfive said:
scientific facts are used for design, testing is what makes a product. i prefer the latter approach. tell you what, next week i'll use your flimsy, failure prone, weak shackles with a chain (about the least kinetic recovery device out there) and yank on that little truck in the background and see what fails first.....i'm thinking my frame horns, but in theory it should be your shackles.
Image.jpg

Off topic... but what do you have there (M916 or M920)? both are great and a work horse.
 

antichrist

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Sep 7, 2004
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FIVESPDDISCO said:
I hope this helps put to rest some of the concerns that some people have had.
It looks like in the video that the test machine's fixed point the rope is attached to meets rope fixed point attachment guidelines, about 3 times the diameter of the rope (one of the reasons thimbles are used on winch lines, to maintain a correct minimum bend radius). Most recovery points won't meet that requirement and so the load capacity of the rope will be reduced.

Shock loading weakens a rope (as mentioned above). Shock loading will weaken it at an even greater rate when it's anchored to a fixed point that doesn't meet the bend radius requirements of the rope. Likely the case in most real world applications.

Established minimum rigging guidelines specify a 3:1 safety margin (design factor) for the WLL, so breaking at 26,000lb would actually mean a WLL significantly below 18,000lb. Many companies use a 5:1 design factor, like the Columbus McKinnon shackles I use. And that 5:1 design factor of CM shackles is the difference between the WLL and the load where it begins to deform (45,000lb in the case of my CM shackles), not where it breaks.

I'm sure a lot of people will buy them, but I'll stick with my $18 CM shackles.
 

LR Max

Well-known member
May 1, 2004
1,190
7
Hotlanta, GA
antichrist said:
Like breaking during a double line pull up a steep incline and your entire vehicle goes flying?

Maybe I'm wrong and it in fact does have some special properties that allows a person to ignore established safe rigging practices when using it.

Having been in that situation, I have discovered that the brake pedal helps combat the "entire vehicle goes flying" scenario.

As mentioned before, I'm only interested in this product for attaching my tow strap to a vehicle that doesn't have recovery points like what we are used to. Otherwise I'd use a normal shackle. Also if I were stuck and handed this thing to any other kind of off road folk, I would be receiving the "WTF is this" look.

So yeah, its like these things are made out of GOOD QUALITY MATERIAL. Its not like they are made out of twine or grass blades.
 

antichrist

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LR Max said:
Having been in that situation, I have discovered that the brake pedal helps combat the "entire vehicle goes flying" scenario.
If you can always be in your vehicle and always on an incline where brakes will hold, then that certainly works.

So yeah, its like these things are made out of GOOD QUALITY MATERIAL.
I don't think anyone said or implied they weren't.
The problem is that, based on personal observation, the majority of people off-roading don't understand safe rigging and how the load capacity would be affected by fitting one of these to a 2" pin vs. as illustrated in the OP photo.
 

garrett

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Jun 18, 2004
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LR Max said:
Having been in that situation, I have discovered that the brake pedal helps combat the "entire vehicle goes flying" scenario.

.

Seeing as you're in the south you don't get to see much snow or spend much time in it off road I am assuming. Brakes are a luxury in many situations (ice, snow, mud, loose rock, etc) and something not to count on. Better to put your faith in gear reduction and engine braking and be certain you are in the proper gear if and when shit goes down. Meaning be in gear you are potentially going to fail in - usually reverse. Something breaks while your getting winched up a hill and the only thing your brakes will do is leave you skidding down backwards in a forward gear - not a good thing.

So don't be so sure about brakes doing what you think they will do in a shitty situation. Ask any number of our students. Especially the one that ended up on his roof last year.
 

Asolo3j

Well-known member
Nov 8, 2004
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Annapolis
Soft shackles are also great for securing gear on/in the truck. I make them with 3mm-6mm spectra and use in conjunction with tie-downs and ratchet straps. As I've stated before, I prefer the basket style dyneema shackle instead of the finger trap style. $25 is a good deal. It's takes about 5'-6' of dyneema, but it takes a while to splice, tie the knot, dip, stitch, and whip.

Justin- what brand/manu are you using for the dyneema? Are you getting it heat/pre set before they become shackles (ie: dynex dux)?
 

seventyfive

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Jan 3, 2010
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antichrist said:
...as illustrated in the OP photo.
for fuck's sake the original picture was just to show the size of the rope. i forgot that in the world of internet, blog, e-chat, it's not as if i was drinking a beer with you and can actually get my point across. so in hind sight i would not have posted a picture of that rope on one tight recovery point. in fact i wouldn't have posted it at all.

antichrist/tom, here's the deal.
i don't believe in recovery from the front......that means I did not do my job setting my truck up properly, picked the wrong line, or even worse; i went on a trail ride without ensuring my equipment worked properly.
IN THE EVENT i actually needed yanked from the front, i would use one of Justin's flimsy death causing shackles on EACH of my front points, with a tree strap, connected to a snatch with another one of Justin's flimsy death causing shackle......................wait a minute. that means not only did i not drive properly or set my truck up properly, it means I DID NOT PICK A LINE THAT WOULD PUT ME IN A SITUATION WHERE I COULD NOT WINCH MYSELF. and if i put myself in a position where i would snap my recovery gear, i guarentee i would snap the winch line before a shackle. and i know this for fact from winching other people, i snapped my winch line twice and go figure i never broke a shackle. the third and final truck i had to winch we finally just tied the rest of the winch line to my front bumper. wow, a figure eight already snapped winch line still pulled a one ton defender out without failing. that;s why i prefer reality over theory, it usually always works.

after reading your posts, the only thing i take from it is this, ALWAYS put yourself in a situation where you can only rely on WINCHING YOURSELF BY YOURSELF, which i also believe in....always expect the worse and rely on your gear. however, i know justin, and i know he would never sacrifice reliability over paying the bills. your incessant posts about failure lead me to believe you you feel he would sell something for the sake of paying his bills, which is actually offensive.

i'll add this, yes most people have no clue how to safely recover their vehicle (why else do we now have wireless winch controllers?). double pull, snatch block, sit in your driver's chair, let it dig, then throttle, let it dig, repeat......wheel with people you trust, set your truck properly, and know your ability. follow those guidelines and you usually never have to hook your winch up.
 
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seventyfive

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Jan 3, 2010
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garrett said:
Brakes are a luxury in many situations (ice, snow, mud, loose rock, etc) and something not to count on. Better to put your faith in gear reduction and engine braking and be certain you are in the proper gear if and when shit goes down.

garrett,
i've only wheeled twice in snow. once in my gwagen at paragon and last feb in the rover. both times i do remember brakes did absolutely nothing but bend sheet metal. HOWEVER i was locked, low, in first gear, in both trucks, and that was the only reason all i did was bend sheet metal (just wished the rover had the same ratio's as the gwagen). i think a lot of people would benefit wheeling with you for a couple days, but most people think they know everything and people like you are only out to make a buck. it's unfortunate.
 

antichrist

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Sep 7, 2004
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seventyfive said:
for fuck's sake the original picture was just to show the size of the rope.
For fuck's sake, do you think you're the only person who might attach one in such a place, for whatever reason? I took you at what you later said about you not actually using it there.
I was only referencing your photo as an example of where someone might attach one in a way to significantly reduce it's capacity.

your incessant posts about failure lead me to believe you you feel he would sell something for the sake of paying his bills, which is actually offensive.
If you go back and read the thread you'll note that my concerns were expressed before it was even posted who was selling them, so it's obvious that they are about the shackle, period. My only significant post after that was addressing the video's ideal test conditions and how they are unlikely to be replicated in real world use. There aren't many recovery points that meet the correct D:d ratio.

I also was concerned about the 18,000lb WLL. Even cheap shit screw pin shackles have a 3:1 design factor and most people strongly suggest 5:1 for recovery use. I'm somewhat perplexed why all of a sudden a significantly less than 2:1 ratio is suddenly cool, especially when the diameter of what it's connected to will affect it's actual capacity. A steel shackle will have the same capacity regardless of whether it's connected to a recovery eye like yours or a Dixon Bate tow jaw. That's not the case with a rope shackle.

People will use these for more than just roll over recovery and I happen to believe they should have all the facts. If they then choose to ignore them, that's their lookout.
Sorry if that offends you.
 

seventyfive

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Jan 3, 2010
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this is my point about the internet. if i don't explicitly state and clarify every last statement it will be disected like the last fish found by the otter which was stolen by the last lone coyote in yellowstone in february.
i posted the other picture to appease people like you.

as for your latter quotation, i should have typed 'whomever' as is what i intended.

unlike you, i don't need a machinists handbook to get off the trail, so i'll use the flimsy rope.