Not so Fast Nancy.

brian4d

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Wow, this raises your hackles but the FBI using the guise of a "counterintelligence investigation" into Trump to avoid due process or their show of force with Stone's arrest aren't the least bit concerning to you.......
This is the story of the decade that nobody wants to speak about. We’re worried about Russian collusion while our republic has adopted the same KGB tactics? Nothing to see here.... we will investigate the republican front runner because he doesn’t meet the status quo of everybody’s feeling for Russia since the end of the Cold War.
 

brian4d

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A counter intelligence investigation is not the same as a criminal investigation. It was used to specifically target Trump and avoid needing the steps that a criminal investigation would require.
Against a presidential candidate, soon to be POTUS none-the-less. But, nobody was expecting all that.
 

ukoffroad

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Jan 13, 2010
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Lynchburg, Va
So, which of his due process rights were violated?
"Procedural due process refers to the constitutional requirement that when the federal government acts in such a way that denies a citizen of a life, liberty, or property interest, the person must be given notice, the opportunity to be heard, and a decision by a neutral decisionmaker."
 

brian4d

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Don’t know why you’re hung up on due process. This does not apply to Trump unless your charged. We are talking about the precedent of secret investigations again a political front runner soon to be president.
 

SGaynor

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So Trump gets a few more weeks to debate a border wall, dems can decide if they want something in return. Or... Trump declares a national emergency and the dems get nothing and America get their much needed border. Isn't Trump 2 for 2 now with Supreme court rulings?
If you think that the President being able to just declare a "national emergency" to get what he wants is a good thing...
 

brian4d

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If you think that the President being able to just declare a "national emergency" to get what he wants is a good thing...
In this case to address the emergency yes. It was an emergency when Nancy and Chuck wanted it 10 years ago and it's more of an emergency today.

Oh, and Trump get his SOTU address. Win, win, winning. Pay up.
 

SGaynor

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What emergency? What crisis that it can't be debated/decided in Congress?

It was such an emergency that it could wait 6 six weeks? Or how about the 2 years the Repubs controlled Congress? Since when is something an emergency when it can wait years to deal with?

Just because you/Trump don't like the outcome, doesn't mean he gets to become a dictator. Remember Civics 101? Congress with the power of the purse and all?

Of course you do. You just think that Trump should be a dictator - fuck Congress and that whole Republican democracy thing.


As for a "the bet:"

A) I didn't make a bet.
B) Trump lost; he caved like the bitch he is.
C) He's still not giving it tomorrow.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2019/jan/28/trump-news-latest-live-us-politics-today-shutdown-afghanistan-starbucks-shutdown
 

brian4d

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Dec 3, 2007
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What emergency? What crisis that it can't be debated/decided in Congress?

It was such an emergency that it could wait 6 six weeks? Or how about the 2 years the Repubs controlled Congress? Since when is something an emergency when it can wait years to deal with?

Just because you/Trump don't like the outcome, doesn't mean he gets to become a dictator. Remember Civics 101? Congress with the power of the purse and all?

Of course you do. You just think that Trump should be a dictator - fuck Congress and that whole Republican democracy thing.


As for a "the bet:"

A) I didn't make a bet.
B) Trump lost; he caved like the bitch he is.
C) He's still not giving it tomorrow.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2019/jan/28/trump-news-latest-live-us-politics-today-shutdown-afghanistan-starbucks-shutdown
50,000 per month is not an emergency in your mind? Ignorance is bliss.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/border-arrests-exceed-50000-for-third-month-in-a-row/2018/06/06/db6f15a6-680b-11e8-bea7-c8eb28bc52b1_story.html?utm_term=.fb6b38cba7ab

More. Check out these numbers. Any other civilized country in the world have this going on?

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

Dang, check out that dip in 2017, wonder why that was?

 
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SGaynor

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Nice data.

So why wasn't this an "emergency" in all of 2018, which was higher than (most of) 2017 (and which was less than all the other years in your graph)?

When your house is on fire (a crisis) do you wait 4 months to call the fire department?

What did happen in 2017? Did we build the wall then? Nope...Maybe we should do what was done in 2017? How about that?


Again, there is a problem, but it is chronic, not a crisis.
 

brian4d

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Dec 3, 2007
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Nice data.
Thanks almost 3 million since 2014. APPREHENDED. How many more got thru?

So why wasn't this an "emergency" in all of 2018, which was higher than (most of) 2017 (and which was less than all the other years in your graph)?
Always has been, see below.

When your house is on fire (a crisis) do you wait 4 months to call the fire department?
That's what happens when you have 10 fires and one firetruck.

What did happen in 2017? Did we build the wall then? Nope...Maybe we should do what was done in 2017? How about that?
Even though your comment is more of a 'tag your it' rational here you go.

It's called prioritizing.

Tax Reform
Right to Try ACT
The Accountability and Whistle-blower Protection Act of 2017
USMCA
Travel Ban - Upheld by the SC

and more, I can go find it but I think you get my point.




Again, there is a problem, but it is chronic, not a crisis.
Then it's WORSE if it's chronic.
 

SGaynor

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It's called prioritizing.

Tax Reform
Right to Try ACT
The Accountability and Whistle-blower Protection Act of 2017
USMCA
Travel Ban - Upheld by the SC

and more, I can go find it but I think you get my point.
I thought Trump was the most ableist person ever! So much energy!

He can only do one thing at a time?

News flash: Congress has passed more bills than those.

Right to Try ACT was higher priority? LOL...Again - If it was that low a priority, it wasn't an emergency.
 

SGaynor

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Yep. Fentanyl is coming in by backpack.:rolleyes:

CBP Makes Largest Fentanyl Bust Ever at Arizona Border
U.S. Customs and Border Patrol (CBP) agents made the largest fentanyl bust in history at a commercial port of entry near Nogales, Ariz. on Saturday, agency officials announced Thursday.

Agents were alerted by a drug-sniffing dog to the presence of 254 pounds of fentanyl and 395 pounds of methamphetamine concealed in a tractor trailer at the Mariposa Port of Entry Saturday afternoon.
 

brian4d

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Dec 3, 2007
5,495
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Yep. Fentanyl is coming in by backpack.:rolleyes:

CBP Makes Largest Fentanyl Bust Ever at Arizona Border
U.S. Customs and Border Patrol (CBP) agents made the largest fentanyl bust in history at a commercial port of entry near Nogales, Ariz. on Saturday, agency officials announced Thursday.

Agents were alerted by a drug-sniffing dog to the presence of 254 pounds of fentanyl and 395 pounds of methamphetamine concealed in a tractor trailer at the Mariposa Port of Entry Saturday afternoon.
That's good news. Wonder how much came through that didn't get caught? PS, don't ask the 3.5 million over the past 5 years that did.
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,003
43
North Carolina
Thanks almost 3 million since 2014. APPREHENDED. How many more got thru?



Always has been, see below.



That's what happens when you have 10 fires and one firetruck.



Even though your comment is more of a 'tag your it' rational here you go.

It's called prioritizing.

Tax Reform
Right to Try ACT
The Accountability and Whistle-blower Protection Act of 2017
USMCA
Travel Ban - Upheld by the SC

and more, I can go find it but I think you get my point.






Then it's WORSE if it's chronic.
That's the only reason I don't have a genuine problem with a wall.

Too many fires, and too few fire trucks.

A wall reduces the number of fire trucks required. Speaking purely from a military perspective, walls provide many benefits. People are simply ignorant.

1: A properly designed wall is a royal pain in the ass to scale. The amount of difficulty in circumventing a properly designed, sufficiently tall wall is enough to delay people considerably. The materials required to make it happen are not easily transported covertly.

Forget everything you've seen on television. Those are glorified fences. Forget what you remember in Germany. That didn't require too much cleverness. Forget everything you think you know about walls unless you're well versed in the history of their employment throughout various cultures.

Nearly anyone with such an education can sketch up a wall in five minutes that any ten members here wouldn't be able to defeat with six hours on site and all their recovery gear laid out before they arrive. You'd never make it over before you were caught if it was updated with modern technology.

There exist ancient castles today that, if manned again, would require an air strike, artillery, or otherwise projectile explosive technology to take without extreme losses on the assaulting side. Why? Damned good wall designs, and we can do even better today. It's not rocket science.

2: A good wall is designed to bring people to previously determined locations without them noticing they're being herded. In this case, using "forbidden" land and wildlife issues in order to direct it's construction specifically hides motivation, in that regard. Oh, there's a lot that goes into this aspect of building walls; a hell of a lot, and it works. Period.

3: With modern technology, any wall will allow far easier surveillance of the border. Instead of sending thousands more people there to miss the same migrants that are being missed now, you can scale back the manpower and machinery. It may cost "X" to build, but over time it pays for itself. End of story.

4: You'll notice a lot of mentioned facets that cause delay. Delay is everything. The whole damned point is to watch many miles at once, and slow people down enough in reasonably well thought-out locations to apprehend them easily. Of course people can get over a wall, but not without notice.

Those are all facts; indisputable facts.

While I believe more money should be spent to build an even better wall if one must be built, it is not strictly required.

There are only two objective problems with walls:

1: They're easy to build, but very difficult to remove. Once built, people don't often want them torn down.

2: They can disrupt wildlife, but the wildlife is already disrupted. A new wall will actually allow improvements, in that regard.

Other concerns, my own included, do not have a functional basis in logic.

I'm not the world's biggest fan of walls, but that doesn't mean they don't do what they're supposed to do when properly designed. They are extremely effective when they're done right; almost unbelievably so.

Whether or not you want a wall is not relevant to their functionality. Do not bring emotion into it. Walls are effective, and once you take the time to understand in what ways they are effective, you will be forced to concede the point. If you still don't like it, by all means argue other points, but I grow weary of people claiming it won't work.

It's the single most effective method to secure land against ground-based forces. Period. Once people accept that, we can argue. Until then, it's a waste of breath. It's kind of like the firearm debate. Until people understand how the things work, there can be no debate worth enduring. It's just education against a screaming mob.

In order to dispute one point, you must understand the truth underlying that point. Admit that walls do what they're meant to do, and then move forward.

Cheers,

Kennith