Ticking Tophat Times

PhD_Polymath

Well-known member
Feb 6, 2015
104
1
Slightly west of Boston
Sorry in advance for the longwinded post.

I rebuilt the 4.0 engine in my 2000 D2 last summer and all was well for about 2000 miles. The engine started ticking at this point.

Here is a video of what the "tick" sounds like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6clqLLypFg

I took the video after changing the exhaust manifold to head gaskets and exhaust manifold to y-pipe gaskets.

I have not hooked up an oil pressure gauge to the engine yet, but the light has never come on. I know the light has a very low threshold to ultimately let you know the engine is already in big trouble, so a gauge may enter the diagnostics soon.

There is also no check engine light currently.

The rebuild included Darton flanged liners, reconditioned rods to factory spec, new piston rings, new camshaft, new lifters, new oil pump, new water pump, all new bearings, new timing chain and gears, a new 180 degree thermostat, new plugs and wires, and ARP head studs.

I did not replace the pushrods or rocker arm assemblies.

I use Rotella 15w-40 dino oil with a bottle of Competition Cams break-in oil additive mixed in. During the break-in of the engine, I used Joe Gibbs Racing BR30 break-in motor oil. It was recommended by the machine shop owner when I picked up my parts to build the 4.0. I had a cam wipe the lobes flat once when I was younger and aim to throw as much zinc dialkyl dithiophospate at flat-tappet cams as needed to prevent a repeat of that fiasco.

After changing the exhaust gaskets and making the above video, I dug deeper by removing the driver's side valve cover. The oil underneath the valve cover was a pretty golden color and looks new. I guess it should with only having about 1500 miles on it in an almost new engine. I checked the pushrods for any play, though I didn't turn the engine over to check each rocker for lifter preload on each cam lobe's base circle. I was in too much of a hurry to check the cups in the rocker tips. I pulled the rocker assembly and the pushrod tips are flattened in appearance, though I don't remember if that was the case during the rebuild. Also, I would expect for one of the pushrods to stand out from the rest to account for the frequency of the sound. They all look more or less the same.

Here is a photo:
http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/Rover_On_The_Rocks/media/IMG_0251_zpsbccpqecx.jpg.html

Also, the rocker cups all appear to be firmly staked in place. I tried to check if they move with a small screwdriver gently turning in the oil hole. I didn't find one loose.

The only thing that appears out of place is one of the rocker pads that contacts the valve stem has an odd wear pattern.

Here is a photo:
http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/Rover_On_The_Rocks/media/IMG_0255_zpsglorhgp5.jpg.html?sort=3&o=6

All the others look like this:
http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/Rover_On_The_Rocks/media/IMG_0253_zpsyk6vssqm.jpg.html?sort=3&o=7

Also, the oil under the pedestals was thicker and black. It was hard to tell with the garage lighting or with my work light, but I thought I could see some metal in it. I took some of the oil and smeared it on a piece of white paper to let it dry and get a better look at it, but the dried product just looks like gray ink. No metal pieces that stand out. It almost looks like the lubricant that ARP supplies with their studs. I am thinking this may just be normal for break-in, as this is the second oil fill in the rebuilt engine's life. I will change the oil in the next couple of days and cut open the oil filter to further investigate.

At this point, I am thinking I should torque the rocker assembly back down and pull the passenger valve cover too and check how the cam lobes open the valves to see if I have a dead lifter or wiped cam lobe. I really didn't want to think about that, but it looks like the most parsimonious explanation at the moment. I followed a strict break-in procedure with the new cam (start engine immediately and keep between 2000-3000 rpm for 30 minutes right from the start, changing RPMs frequently to splash different parts of the cam, while watching live data of the coolant temperature ). The engine has never ever overheated during my ownership and certainly not after the rebuild.

Does anyone have any other suggestions to what may be causing this noise?
 

rovercanus

Well-known member
Apr 24, 2004
9,651
246
When you had the heads resurfaced did you also have the valves measured? My machinist surfaced my heads .008 then also milled the valve stems to match. Are any of the lifters collapsed? Did you prime them before the install?
 

JohnB

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2007
2,295
12
Oregon
Rip your oil filter apart and look for metal.
Sometimes even with the proper break in at 3000 rpm for 20 minutes things happen. Sometimes lifters just don't play nice.
 

nolift911

Well-known member
Feb 19, 2006
403
0
Where did you get the rockers from? Are they OEM? I just had a top hat motor installed the past summer (AB) worked fine for about 2k then started making all kinds of noise - much like yours at first. Turns out they got a "bad batch" of rockers/lifters.

My motor had "other" issues so they replaced it again...seems good now.

They were pretty specific about the weight of the oil especially for break in and said 5w-30, which I thought was rather lightweight weight, but seems to work. I noticed yours is a bit heavier, doubt that factors in though.

Anyway not much info - hope you figure it out after all of that work, good luck.
 

PhD_Polymath

Well-known member
Feb 6, 2015
104
1
Slightly west of Boston
Thanks everyone for the replies. I didn't get to troubleshoot the Disco today, as I got into an accident with my wife's car. She has/had a Toyota Yaris and it was the only reliable car between us.

http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/Rover_On_The_Rocks/media/IMG_0257_zpsq9jfyin2.jpg.html

Now that the Yaris is down, I am going to pour more energy into the Disco this weekend and next week to get it hopefully squared away. I don't know how long we will be without the Yaris or its replacement, so I have been told by the wife to "get the Rover fixed ASAP" (not that I am upset with those orders).

jimmiejamz- That will go onto the list of things to try.

rovercanus- The valves were not cut down when the heads were done. However, the shop did not mill the heads when I had them in for work. The shop checked the heads for flatness and said they were good to go. I took their word for it, as they seemed to be a reliable shop with lots of fancy machines. Maybe trusting their word was a bad decision? I plan to check the lifters as my next step, by turning the engine with a breaker bar on the crank snout bit by bit to see if one pushrod has a gap when the lifter is on the base circle of the cam. I did not prime the lifters before dropping them in, as I read in some engine building books that this is not necessary. I dipped them in oil and put a healthy gob of assembly lube on every surface of the cam and the top and bottom of each lifter during assembly. The plungers on the lifters were very stiff when I checked them. If it is lifters and/or cam lobes, I will put the lifters in oil overnight next time and burn the books while cursing the darkness.

John B- I will certainly do this. I have fingers crossed that there is nothing special on display within the folds of paper when I get in there. This would not be the first time I had a cam go bad quickly. I have had 3 cams wipe out on me in the past in short order, even when following break-in procedures. However, in the past, I had yet to read all about ZDDP and it's importance in flat-tappet engines.

nolift911- I am using the original rocker assemblies. This was the only part I did not replace during the rebuild, as they appeared fine and were $400/assembly when I was doing the rebuild. I read your thread on the Atlantic British engine. Happy they did you right on that engine. During the break-in, I used Joe Gibbs Racing Break-In oil. It is 30 weight. The machine shop said that this oil is the best for breaking in a new engine with a flat-tappet cam with high ZDDP levels. Maybe that exotic oil was a bad thing. It cost me north of $80 for that oil fill, and I only got a few miles out of it before swapping to Rotella with Comp Cams ZDDP additive. Lots to ponder. Thanks for the info. It helps.

Thanks again.
 

jafir

Well-known member
May 4, 2011
1,628
0
Northwest Arkansas
FYI you don't have to buy rocker assemblies, you can get new shafts for like $30 and new rockers for a few bucks each and make your own for considerably less than $400 a set. I'm not saying this is your problem, just offering a cheaper solution.
 

riceybean

Well-known member
Jun 29, 2008
861
0
Vancouver, WA
I also had this issue with my top end rebuild, that darn Rover tick. It really does sound like a stuck lifter. I had this issue many times with older Audi/VW's that used the similar Bosch lifter. They have notoriously small oil passages that can and do clog quickly. It still does it on cold day start ups but goes away quickly. All I did was stop using Rotella T-6 after about 4 oil changes and 2 motor flush additive treatments. The engine was a gunky mess when I got it, the oil filter had an over year old date written on it.. I then switched to a conventional 10-40w oil. I went with the (laugh if you want) SuperTech Walmart high mileage oil. Not sure if it was in fact what cured the lifter tick but it has gone away for me.

M2C
 

PhD_Polymath

Well-known member
Feb 6, 2015
104
1
Slightly west of Boston
I took off the oil filter and cut it open. There was a fine metal "glitter" inside the pleats of the filtration media. With that out of the way, I suspected there may be either bearings or cam/lifter wear. Upon removing the intake manifold, I found this:

http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/Rover_On_The_Rocks/media/IMG_0565_zpsbncb0kfb.jpg.html

That is one of the better lifters. At least I expect so, because most lifters won't even come out of the bore. I suspect they are "mushroomed" on the bottom. I did replace the oil pump gears when doing the rebuild and made certain the gears were installed in the correct orientation (if I remember correctly, RAVE points out that a chamfered edge has to face a specific direction). The screws that hold the oil pump gear plate to the front cover were torqued to spec using the specified Loctite.

At this point, I am planning to just find a junkyard short-block and swap it in. Today, I found a lead on an inexpensive 4.6 short block that should put me back in business. I can keep the current flanged liner engine and go through it again as funds allow and rectify problems related to lots of metal circulating through it and have a spare to drop in at a later date.
 

PhD_Polymath

Well-known member
Feb 6, 2015
104
1
Slightly west of Boston
They were Allmakes lifters and cam. I didn't closely inspect the lobes, but they must be shot with such wear on the lifters. With that said, I cannot rule out the oil pump causing low oil pressure and this being the result. I never had the oil light come on, but it has such a low threshold as to be useless. All makes claims no reported problems with this cam over the last year. I will be documenting the bits as I further investigate.
 

KyleT

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2007
6,059
8
39
Fort Worth, TEXAS
I'm thinking the hardening wasn't correct. I've seen them with the oil light in for tens of thousands of miles and nowhere near looking like that.
 

PhD_Polymath

Well-known member
Feb 6, 2015
104
1
Slightly west of Boston
2000 miles here, give or take 100. $3800 engine rebuild down the drain. I love driving the Disco when it runs, but that is never too often. Maybe this time around I can keep it running for more than a few months before parking to save up for fixes...
 

PhD_Polymath

Well-known member
Feb 6, 2015
104
1
Slightly west of Boston
I had tried to "pump up" the lifters that way when installing them. I couldn't really get the cup to move appreciably. I submerged them in oil and installed, adding a generous amount of assembly lube for good measure before dropping them in. The lifter in the photo was collapsed when I was disassembling the engine the other day. Maybe it bled down? But the others all had the cup against the retaining clip (pumped up position), despite some being off the base circle of their respective cam lobes. When I relieved the pressure by removing the rocker assembly, it came back up.
 

PhD_Polymath

Well-known member
Feb 6, 2015
104
1
Slightly west of Boston
I have thought about that. Right now, I plan to disassemble the engine and look at the bearings for any damage from the metal circulating. Reconditioning the rods and crank and putting in new bearings shouldn't cost much more than a junkyard block and I would still have a new engine. Do you have a recommendation for a supplier of good camshafts? I have seen that D&D sells Crower cams.
 

jymmiejamz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2004
6,008
361
35
Los Angeles, Ca
I have thought about that. Right now, I plan to disassemble the engine and look at the bearings for any damage from the metal circulating. Reconditioning the rods and crank and putting in new bearings shouldn't cost much more than a junkyard block and I would still have a new engine. Do you have a recommendation for a supplier of good camshafts? I have seen that D&D sells Crower cams.

I got all of my stuff from D&D and I've never had an issue. I've put in probably five or so from him. The other option is Genuine.
 

ubuntu

Well-known member
Apr 16, 2014
225
1
Mosquito Alley
I have been through the same pain, here is my story:
Complete rebuild of engine, everything new and OEM parts. Engine ticked badly from first start and I could never figure out the problem. It started missing badly and when I pulled the IM I found the cam lobes were wiped and lifters were badly dished.
So I started again with a cam and lifters from D&D - engine ticked again, this time not as badly. I tried different weight and brands of oil, that made no difference. I pulled the IM again and while I was standing there contemplating the meaning of Rover life I was poking at the lifters with a push rod. I noticed some lifters had about 1/8" travel and others were solid. I pulled a lifter out and took it apart - there was a fair amount of oil trapped in the lifter. I cleaned out the oil and put the lifter back together, that gave me about 1/4" travel. I did the same to all the lifters and put the engine back together. This time the tick was very slight, a significant difference from before.
I was not yet happy and out of desperation I drained 1 Qt of oil and added 1 Qt of MMO. The tick went away after about an hour's driving and has not ticked since then, that was 3000 miles ago.
That is my story and I'm sticking to it. YMMV