Video of 2013 Defender Concepts
- Thread starter RRCNicky
- Start date
Its just not right, I don't want to believe that this is the way Land Rover is going.. They need some guidance from someone who is in touch with the hx for Gods sake .
Some fricking common sense!
Some fricking common sense!
The sport model is pretty ridiculous, but let's see what the actual vehicle looks like when in production before we bash it. Just imagine what the Series Land Rover people where saying in the late 60's when the Range Rover concept was introduced. Although the DC100 looks a little odd, kinda like a Kia Soul, I bet it is an improvement on the current Defender in capability and comfort.
seriously, I am sure the series people were accepting. something they could drive on the highway and in the field. It was obviously serviceable with minimal tools and could do everything the series could in stride.
I am sure there is a group that thinks a Rover on coils is crap. I am just not sure any rover after the DI is a Rover.
I am sure it will be an improvement if all you do is cruise to Macys the Jr league events and your stable. The defender replacement is a complete and total abortion of a vehicle. Land Rover has completely lost touch and clearly has no interest in what we do. Get a prada bag and some gucci kicks to go with your new DC100, its a pile of shit. The only redeeming characteristic I have observed is all that fucking plastic that wont rust.
I am sure there is a group that thinks a Rover on coils is crap. I am just not sure any rover after the DI is a Rover.
I am sure it will be an improvement if all you do is cruise to Macys the Jr league events and your stable. The defender replacement is a complete and total abortion of a vehicle. Land Rover has completely lost touch and clearly has no interest in what we do. Get a prada bag and some gucci kicks to go with your new DC100, its a pile of shit. The only redeeming characteristic I have observed is all that fucking plastic that wont rust.
Looks more like Jim Roger's CLK on G Wagon chassis:
http://www.fentonreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/jim-rogers-tech-car2.jpg
http://www.fentonreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/jim-rogers-tech-car2.jpg
DougG said:
You're totally in denial. Get a grip man. The Series, 90 and 110 were replaced with Toyota backies because they were far cheaper and way more reliable. That was 20 years ago.
The Defender's being replaced by the Foxhound. As for Tata's Land Rover brand, they have two options: they can sell overpriced status symbols to compete with the Mercedes ML and BMW X, Lexus etc. and they can sell cheaper cars on a common platform with crumple-zone unibodies, airbags, and independent suspensions that meet all the regulatory requirements of the EU. Tata is right to see that they have no other options. Nothing else would actually sell because there are no buyers.
The days of sporting around in ex-military vehicles and their derivatives are coming to an end. (The Series was based on US military jeeps, and I would assert that Land Rovers up to the D2 inclusive were derivatives). If you want to keep doing it, save what you have or get into one of those new Ocelots, but don't look to Tata.
Or if you're on a budget, these guys will have some surplus when they're done:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/10/14/why-rebel-groups-love-the-toyota-hilux.html
I don't know. It seems to me there is a very large market for a real Defender here in the US. Look at the jeep sales and the prices they are getting for them! The four door wranglers even kind of look like 110's. A Defender with a truck bed might also sell well if it had enough power.
Ben said:You're totally in denial. Get a grip man. The Series, 90 and 110 were replaced with Toyota backies because they were far cheaper and way more reliable. That was 20 years ago.
The Defender's being replaced by the Foxhound. As for Tata's Land Rover brand, they have two options: they can sell overpriced status symbols to compete with the Mercedes ML and BMW X, Lexus etc. and they can sell cheaper cars on a common platform with crumple-zone unibodies, airbags, and independent suspensions that meet all the regulatory requirements of the EU. Tata is right to see that they have no other options. Nothing else would actually sell because there are no buyers.
The days of sporting around in ex-military vehicles and their derivatives are coming to an end. (The Series was based on US military jeeps, and I would assert that Land Rovers up to the D2 inclusive were derivatives). If you want to keep doing it, save what you have or get into one of those new Ocelots, but don't look to Tata.
Or if you're on a budget, these guys will have some surplus when they're done:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/10/14/why-rebel-groups-love-the-toyota-hilux.html
If we are speaking strictly business, there is no market in the U.S.A for a Defender 90 or 110 aside from a small faction of enthusiasts. Americans want luxury, and gadgetry, and Tata is giving them what they think they want. The enthusiast market is not profitable to Tata. I don't like the direction Tata is taking Land Rover any less than anyone on this board, but I am being a realist. I am not in denial, and I do have a grip. My plan is to collect the classic Land Rovers, or the Land Rovers that I like, and preserve them as much as I can. The Land Rovers that are important to me are the Range Rover classic(the 95 LWB, and early RRC two door), the series II or IIA, the P38, yes I said P38, I think it is an important Land Rover, the Discovery up to 2004, a Defender 90 and the 2005 Range Rover. Any vehicle after that in my opinion is unappealing to me, and Land Rover will never again have any "classic" vehicles. Whether I get all these vehicles is probably unlikely, but I have a good start.
DougG said:
The new jeep wranglers are selling like hotcakes and they are not luxury. Have you seen the prices for a 4 door wrangler? A middle of the road Sahara books out at almost $37k.
The base price of a Wrangler Unlimited is $26k. Land Rover's competitor to it is the LR4 with a based price of $50k. Land Rover could offer an SUV at a lower price point but if it's made in Britain and imported to North America, it will always cost more for the same thing compared to a domestic Jeep. Therefore it only makes sense for Land Rover to produce relatively premium products for the N/A market. They will never compete on price. Regardless, consider how many of those Jeep buyers would be interested in buying a Land Rover instead, even if it were not for the price premium? Jeep is an American icon. Land Rover is merely a niche market in the US. Another popular competitor besides the Wrangler is the Tacoma. It is also produced domestically in the NAFTA zone, has a far lower base price than any current Land Rover offerings, sells huge volumes, and has only the tiniest slice of "enthusiast" buyers that would ever dare consider a Land Rover instead. Most of them would regret it. Tata doesn't have a chance of taking anything significant from the Jeep, Tacoma, or FJ markets in the US. That's why they focus on the luxury niche and the EU. The Wrangler Unlimited won't make it in the EU. They pay $8-10/gal for fuel and for the few buyers rich enough not to care, they'd rather go all the way for a lifted Dodge 3500HD (for which they pay more than Americans pay for Defenders)
Ben said:
Oh hell no. My company vehicle is a 2007 Taco with almost 80K on it. I've put over 40K miles on it in 14 months and not just highway miles. It gets used at our off road training school for the military. So it doesn't have the best life and on top of that it's a manual. Even more abuse. Since new it's only had one unit bearing failure and the clock stopped working.
I've owned 6 Land Rovers and none of them compare in reliability. Not by a long shot. But I still love Land Rovers and we continue to use them in our fleet of training vehicles. They will slowly get phased out over the years, but they still are a very unique and fun truck to have and a good solid platform for off road use. It's just nice to be able to jump in the Taco and drive 5K miles on a trip and not have to worry as much.
And the "Toyota's don't have character" claim is gay. Check out a 70 series or any number of ROW trucks that can now be imported legally. Sure the new(er) Land Cruisers might not have as much character, but neither do the hideous LR3/4s, LR2s, etc.
It's one thing to compare "character" and ones particular taste towards a brand or specific vehicle. That's subjective. But LR can't compare to the reliability to Toyota products. Like I say.....off road ability is nothing without reliability.
I meant that if Toyota buyers were persuaded to buy a LR instead, most of them would regret it. Most of those Tacoma buyers wouldn't be charmed by Land Rover quirks. The dismal failure of the Discovery with the general market in the US is proof enough. The huge majority of first owners regretted it severely, and resale values plummeted. They are not what the North American market expects at all. The enthusiast niche is different, but too small to build a new model for, especially a low-margin model.
If Land Rover did build a competitor to the Wrangler-Unlimited in price and capability, it would trail far behind in sales. Even H2 and H3 sales would whup it. But yeah, there's a few thousand enthusiasts that would love it. Of course, we'd have to accept it being made in India.
If Land Rover did build a competitor to the Wrangler-Unlimited in price and capability, it would trail far behind in sales. Even H2 and H3 sales would whup it. But yeah, there's a few thousand enthusiasts that would love it. Of course, we'd have to accept it being made in India.
Being made in India is a moot point. It's a world market now and nothing is made where it once was. My Triumph motorcycle was made in England in 1996, but the newer bikes are all made in Thailand. I don't think that matters to the buyer all that much. Hell I bet they are more reliable bikes now and maybe that will happen with LR too. I can't see their reliability getting worse from it. A good deal of US cars are made elsewhere, yet Toyota keeps a lot of people employed here in the US and they remain one the best and most successful automotive companies.
People have a short term memory and I have a feeling if LR made the "right" vehicle people would buy it without thinking about their history with reliability issues. The difference is I think the likes of Jeep still have some true enthusiasts involved in the day to day decision making whereas Land Rover just doesn't. They've got more CPAs making the decisions whether to create something unique like they did back in the day.
Jeep will continue to produce the Wrangler while Land Rover tries hopelessly to design a fancy toaster with 22 wheels.
People have a short term memory and I have a feeling if LR made the "right" vehicle people would buy it without thinking about their history with reliability issues. The difference is I think the likes of Jeep still have some true enthusiasts involved in the day to day decision making whereas Land Rover just doesn't. They've got more CPAs making the decisions whether to create something unique like they did back in the day.
Jeep will continue to produce the Wrangler while Land Rover tries hopelessly to design a fancy toaster with 22 wheels.
It totally matters to the enthusiast, and not only that it also matters whether it's a genuine product or not. Your Triumph is worthless to an enthusiast of the Edward Turner/Doug Hele Triumph Engineering Co. Ltd. motorcycles from Coventry and Meriden (Solihull). Even the NVT and TML products that came out of Birmingham are utterly rejected, and the Hinckley stuff, although eminently better in quality, and reliability are held in entirely different regard because they are nothing more than badged with the mere name that was purchased out of receivership. They're considered boring. The first generation that shared a common frame among dirt, classic, standard, touring, and sport bikes were especially boring. The only thing they've accomplished since then is to produce a better fake of the original twins, which was in fact not their goal to begin with, but proved to be by far the best way to actually make money. It reminds me of those clothing companies that market a lifestyle (think Barbour, Willis & Geiger, Tilley, or Pendleton). They start out making a few good things for men, but then they introduce a few things for women and right away they sell more than they have of everything else combined and before long it's just another women's catalog. I've digressed. The point is that it's impossible for Tata to make a "right" Land Rover. They couldn't make one anymore than the Chinese could start making Holland and Holland. Possibly, they could make a useful car, and although it wouldn't be a Land Rover, it could be a successful product like those Hinckley Triumphs. But you've got to face the facts. They've already started selling to women.
They started selling to woman when the RRS and Freelander were introduced. Every other mom in my town has a full size or sport. Not to mention the Freelander/LR2 was likely aimed at women or at the very least metrosexual men sporting Banana Republic blazers and scarfs.
But like you said, how many enthusiasts are really out there that would make a difference to the bottom line. It's not enough to introduce the "real" Defender, so we're left with some ghay concept that lessens the credibility to an already beleaguered Land Rover soul or lack thereof one.
As a side note just about every bike produced in the past decade is relatively boring (at least in looks) to the retro period. I'm not a fan of any street bike, so to me they are boring. I was riding with a buddy who has a new Ducati 1198S two weeks ago. It will do close to 190 mph, but it stops at any sign of a gravel road. I'll take a my Tiger over a $23,000 Ducati.
https://picasaweb.google.com/100372756049018300486/ElTigre
But like you said, how many enthusiasts are really out there that would make a difference to the bottom line. It's not enough to introduce the "real" Defender, so we're left with some ghay concept that lessens the credibility to an already beleaguered Land Rover soul or lack thereof one.
As a side note just about every bike produced in the past decade is relatively boring (at least in looks) to the retro period. I'm not a fan of any street bike, so to me they are boring. I was riding with a buddy who has a new Ducati 1198S two weeks ago. It will do close to 190 mph, but it stops at any sign of a gravel road. I'll take a my Tiger over a $23,000 Ducati.
https://picasaweb.google.com/100372756049018300486/ElTigre
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