| Author |
Message |
    
Steve Andrews (Sillybus)
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 01:54 pm: | 
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I would like for this site to be without frames. Besides my personal taste, they are a hinderance to anyone that uses assistive technologies to browse web sites. For more information on this, you can check out Section 508 of the American Disabilities Act.
The requirements contained within this section are good guidlines to follow for any web site and make you think of things that most people take for granted (like the contrast between unvisited and visited hyperlinks). |
Axel Haakonsen (Axel)
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 06:31 pm: |
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Well, I like the frames, so they are staying..... |
Blue (Bluegill)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 01:05 pm: |
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that's not very PC there, Axel... |
Leslie N. Bright (Leslie)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 06:26 pm: |
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Not PC? Nah, Axel uses a PC, I'm SURE he's not a Mac user....
-L |
Axel Haakonsen (Axel)
| | Posted on Thursday, August 22, 2002 - 11:25 pm: |
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Mac?  |
Steve Andrews (Sillybus)
| | Posted on Friday, August 23, 2002 - 02:50 pm: |
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I just assumed that the terse reply was because he was busy. I never thought that he was being insensitive to the issues of Americans with disabilities. I will continue to use this site because of its content, no matter how difficult it may be to navigate. |
Leslie N. Bright (Leslie)
| | Posted on Friday, August 23, 2002 - 04:25 pm: |
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Steve,
I can't speak for Axel, but, my wife and I talked about this (she's good for opinions on things like this since she's a schoolteacher).
Thing is, think about the goal of this site.... it's dealing with people that, for the most part, are really using their Land Rovers off-road, fixing them, trying to keep them running, modifying them, etc. etc. Not that I'm wanting to discourage someone who has a disadvantage, but... these really aren't activities that are necessarily easy to do anyway, much less if someone has a physical disability. My wife deals with kids every day that have been mainstreamed into an environment that they really aren't well suited for... her opinion is that they need to learn to deal with that environment, or, find a different environment.
It's not being insensitive, either.... it's just that the world in which we live is the way it is... somehow, a lot of people have begun to feel an entitlement to have everything changed to suit them, and if the world can go along with it, or at least their little bit, then great, but if not, well....
Axel likes them, and finds it useful to have frames. It is his website, and so he can make it how he wants. Every single time I open the BBS, the first thing I do is grab the edge of the frame-divider, and pull it over to make that side-bar take up about half as much room, just to maximize the amount of text that shows in the main frame at a time. It's just a personal preference. But, I deal with it. Oh well.
I don't mean to seem curt or anything, but, it's the way I see it.
Anyway.... time to go...
L8R,
-L |
Kyle
| | Posted on Friday, August 23, 2002 - 05:01 pm: |
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And your wife married a guy names "Less Bright" Go figure....
Kyle |
Axel Haakonsen (Axel)
| | Posted on Friday, August 23, 2002 - 08:32 pm: |
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Well, if you don't want frames, you can always left click on any link and open it in a new window. You can also change your screen properties to make the resolution whatever size you want. Uncle Bill already took care of all that. As for not liking frames, well - that comes down to personal taste. And as we know, taste is like an ass, it's divided right down the middle..... |
Steve Andrews (Sillybus)
| | Posted on Friday, August 23, 2002 - 10:55 pm: |
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Right on.
Like I said:
"I never thought that he was being insensitive to the issues of Americans with disabilities."
I have no disabilities. Well, ok. I guess having a prehensil tail is sort of a handicap but it doesn't affect my disco-web experience. I just don't like frames. Since it was a feedback board, I was just giving my $.02 worth.
I'll even go a bit further to say that it isn't frames that I don't care for, it is the scroll bars and borders. Weird hunh? Kind of like my tail.
/$.02 |
Leslie N. Bright (Leslie)
| | Posted on Friday, August 23, 2002 - 11:04 pm: |
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LOL, Hmmmm...... SO I wonder what it was about me that made me marriable, eh?
-L |
KJ
| | Posted on Friday, August 23, 2002 - 11:38 pm: |
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Leslie, can I guess?????? Uh, you weren't her cousin????? LOL, sorry, couldn't resist pokin' fun at your 'burg. Now you can make some hostile Chesapeake Bay joke back at me if you feel the need...
Karen, I blame the heat |
Steve Andrews (Sillybus)
| | Posted on Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 12:47 am: |
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Hey KJ, where are you from? I live in Easton. |
Chris von C.
| | Posted on Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 02:02 am: |
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For those who may be interested and want to take a peek at the document Steve is referring to, here is the direct link to Subpart B of Section 508 relating to Web development:
http://www.access-board.gov/sec508/guide/1194.22.htm
While it's a good guideline for developing a site that is required to meet Federal standards in order to qualify for their Federal funding and does make you think of some things you take for granted, you bind a sites design into a much narrower scope, severely limiting it's design options for personal and private sites appearance and performance as well as dramatically raising the cost of being maintained. For example, I looked at 7 sites (mostly sites linked right in the document) that are required to follow those guidelines and with the exception of the US Post Office site, they all look like they were made though an old, old, version of AOL Homepage Creator and look like shit. Even then, look at the code for the USPS site and you'll see the 4 pages of java script needed just for that navigation field. As for some of the other sites, they simply have the same nav links embedded into each page which means that anytime they make a link change, they need to apply it to every single page on the site that has that on there. This is not a problem for them since I am sure each of those sites have a few people on the parole whose job it is to do nothing but maintain the site all day. Personal sites, like the Discoweb don't have that luxury.
Chris von C |
Steve Andrews (Sillybus)
| | Posted on Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 08:30 am: |
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Chris,
I don't want to beat a dead horse but while I agree that this site has no reason to comply with these standards, it is not difficult. Design doesn't have to suffer either. We have built very nice sites that were fully compliant that did not take 4 pages of java script. Our company is one of the most respected 508 conversion specialist so I do speak with experience.
The fact that many government agencies didn't hire the webs best design teams when they initially built their sites has nothing to do with 508 compliance. Yes they look old, pre-97 design faux pas etc. but the same can be said of many sites. Don't confuse 508 compliance with poor design.
"they simply have the same nav links embedded into each page which means that anytime they make a link change, they need to apply it to every single page on the site..."
That isn't true either, they use "include" files that are mixed in with the pages on the server. They really only change links in one place.
While I don't think it will ever pass, there has been talk of requiring ALL web sites to be 508 compliant. The government's stance on this is that you are using THEIR internet. I kept telling Janet Reno she was crazy for pushing the 508 thing as hard as she did but in government circles, it went further than I had expected already.
Hey, here is something pretty neat. I'll show you how your site looks to people with different types of color blindness. |
Steve Andrews (Sillybus)
| | Posted on Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 08:32 am: |
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Type of color blindness: Protanope
 |
Steve Andrews (Sillybus)
| | Posted on Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 08:33 am: |
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Type of color blindness: Deuteranope
 |
Steve Andrews (Sillybus)
| | Posted on Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 08:35 am: |
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Type of color blindness: Tritanope
 |
Steve Andrews (Sillybus)
| | Posted on Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 08:36 am: |
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Normal
 |
Steve Andrews (Sillybus)
| | Posted on Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 08:57 am: |
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As far as color blindness goes, your site holds up pretty well. Since it is a fairly common "handicap", that should make you smile. |
Axel Haakonsen (Axel)
| | Posted on Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 09:13 am: |
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From that 508 document:
Quote:When colors are used as the sole method for identifying screen elements or controls, persons who are color blind as well as those people who are blind or have low vision may find the web page unusable.
When Stevie Wonder sends in pictures of himself driving his Disco up Rockpile in Moab, we will consider making some changes to the site...... |
Steve Andrews (Sillybus)
| | Posted on Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 12:01 pm: |
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Like it says "persons who are color blind as well as those people who are blind". |
Chris von Czoernig (Chrisvonc)
| | Posted on Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 12:07 pm: |
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Steve (Andrews, not Wonder)
Are there software packages to assist one when developing a site for those guidelines or is it pretty much "code as you normally do keep them in mind"?
Also, do you mind me asking for a link to your company. I would be interested in seeing some examples of the sites they have produced for my own interest on the matter.
Thanks,
Chris von C. |
Steve Andrews (Sillybus)
| | Posted on Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 12:18 pm: |
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Chris,
There is a piece of software called InSite & InFocus developed by SSB Technologies out of San Francisco. We have used it extensively and it has had several shortcomings. Where it works great is in identifying potential problems. If you would like, I will run a report for you next week on your site and send it to you. The software costs $5000 per license and is really aimed at the professional developer market, not the DIYer.
Our corporate site is located at http://www.mac1988.com and if you would like to see examples of our work, you can keep an eye on the FEMA site as a new design is about to launch this Fall (http://www.fema.gov/). Our division is the Internet Applications & Development division and we have some info there on 508 and other items of interest.
If you have any questions or need any input, I'm here to lend a hand where I can. Buying stickers isn't comparable to the wealth of information I have already received from this wonderful site. |
Chris von Czoernig (Chrisvonc)
| | Posted on Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 12:58 pm: |
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Kumbuya.. Thats a big price tag!
I'll shoot you am email off list here. Thanks for the offer.
On a side note, and I simply might be misunderstanding your wording, but the Discoweb is not my site.
Chris von C |
Steve Andrews (Sillybus)
| | Posted on Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 02:36 pm: |
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Chris,
I thought you were speaking on behalf of this site. Sorry, I am new and made a wrong assumption. |
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