Aftermarket brake systems

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Author Message   sherrod Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 08:07 pm:    my 88 rover does not stop very well, even after brake job. is there a aftermarket brake system available that will improve the braking?   Bill Bettridge (Billb) Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 09:03 am:    I'd look into why the current system is not doing it's job - the non-abs systems (like in your 88) are normally fine. Check for leakdown of the MC, leaking caliper piston seals, leaking proportioning valve, corroded lines, etc. Many things to check before going to the extreme measure of swapping in aftermarket crap..... Was the system bled properly after your "brake job"?   Bill Bettridge (Billb) Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 09:09 am:    Also - if you do have your heart set on upgrading - you can swap in mid 90's RRC vented front rotors and calipers. Recently did this on a friends '87 RRC. Not the smallest job in the world due to hub differences, a complete donor front axle is quickest way. This will not improve braking per se, but does give more resistence to brake fade vs. the solid front rotors. Bill   John Moore (Jmoore) Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 11:47 am:    I agree with Bill, though my 88RRC is not a race car when it comes ot braking, it does a good job. www.Atlanticbritish.com has upgraded pads (even kevlar) and rotors if you need to go that far. -John 88RRC   Ali Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 03:04 pm:    This may be a good time to replace your brake lines too since they're prolly the oem set. Some say they can tell the difference but I couldn't. I did it for preventative maint on my rig. Also, high mileage calipers are known to have leaks around the pistons. If yours are corroded then this too will have ill effects on the whole braking system. Bunch of little things on an older rig contribute to a sluggish braking system. Ali '91RRC   sherrod Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 07:22 pm:    the brake job included new vented rotors, kevlar pads and new master cylinder. the kevlar pad would not stop the vehicle at all. i had to remove them and reinstall standard type pads; braking is still not "right"...further discussions with the mechanic today indicated he thanks it would not be the calipers but something between them and the master cylinders...he will investigate further. so youall are saying the stock brakes are good, if working properly and no need to go to aftermarket?   SL Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 08:11 pm:    My 88 rangie alsmost killed me more than once with her lack of braking ability. I went through the calipers, lines, replaced MC, replaced booster and the brakes still sucked. What ended up making the difference in my case was tuning the engine correctly. Since our cars use a vauccum system if the engine is running rough or is misfiring or some other range rover problem the vaccum pressure blows causing the brakes to suck. It's a little point but it made the difference for me. To give u an idea of how bad my brakes were, from a standstill i could floor the brake pedal then tap the gas and the car would take off. Good luck   ericrat Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 09:33 pm:    I had that problem with a '71 Chevy truck I had for a while. Manifold vacuum was low so the brake booster couldn't do its job. I had the check valve on the vacuum line at the booster fail at well. Each of these things is fairly easy to test with an inexpensive vacuum gauge. Eric   Greg Hirst Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 03:27 pm:    I've not been thrilled with the braking on my '89 County and have tried different pads, etc. but never found a complete solution. The stock LR pads work fine when cold or normal op temperatures but totally fade and overheat when coming down the hill from Big Bear. I tried Lucas organic pads (crap-ate rotors, faded), Lucas semi-metallic (also crap, same probs), PBR/Axxis/Repco Metal Masters, and others and found that Kevlar and other pads that worked OK when very hot did not stop well when cold. The compromise I use now are some relatively cheap ($25/set) carbon-metallic pads (brand name-Autoquip) from Mexico that work hot and cold just OK. I think that the solid rotors may by part of the problem in shedding heat under severe braking. I've thought of spending the $ and getting cross-drilled/slotted/both for the fronts. I also read years ago (in LRO mag) of an aftermarket kit that split the calipers with a spacer and allowed you to convert to a later model axially-ventilated rotor but I'm a little leery of this. Any ideas?   Bill Bettridge (Billb) Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 04:45 pm:    See third post - you can swap in later RRC vented front discs and calipers - easiest with a whole donor axle. Makes a huge difference in brake fade BTW - the stock later RRC calipers are nothing but standard calipers with spacers...... Bill   Greg Hirst Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 09:47 pm:    If the stock later RR calipers are nothing but standard calipers with spacers why wouldn't it be a simple bolt-on swap just to replace calipers & rotors with the later model ones? Do the calipers have different bolt size or need an adapter to attach to the hub? Is there a change in the hub due to ABS? Is there a difference in brake line threads, etc.? Also, I am soon going to upgrade both axles to ARB lockers and 24 spline axles so I obviously might consider buying a later axle for the front and do everything at once. Comments? Greg H   Paul Schuetz (Schuetz) Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 01:29 am:    I did the full change over on my '91 RRC, slotted and vented discs, kevlar pads. Personally, I think the setup works great. I tow an 18ft Seadoo boat all summer long and can definantly tell a huge difference. The biggest problem I've heard of with the kevlar pads is not breaking them in correctly, getting them up to the right temp, but the first weekend towing the boat up and down some 7 degree plus grades going to the lake took care of that. They don't squeek and the brake dust is pink so you hardly notice it. My $0.02 Paul '91 RRC   hendrik Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 01:56 am:    The upgrade of the calipers with spacers is said to be easy and straightforward but for me it doesn´t pay. When mixing calipers and axles one must be aware of a different thread of the 2 caliper fixing bolts. Old type is 1/2" UNF I think and the new one M12 (common, coarse thread). The Workshop Man. recommends to slightly outbore the 2 holes in the caliper if applicable (but better have a look yourself before!!). There are changes in the brake lines I do not overview. But not a problem to make a new one (the short pipe between caliper and brake hose). What I cannot tell is about the fixing of the rotors to the hub. The newer type hub is metric throughout. While the older is imperial thread. This is sth to consider.   Bill Bettridge (Billb) Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 09:12 am:    Greg - if you were swapping everything out for 24 spline stuff, then you would need to purchase the later hubs (and possible stub axles too?) also - as Hendrik noted, the drive flange setups and bolt sizes are different - of course you'd also need the later CV's - that is why a complete donor axle is the easiest way to go - just swap in the entire swivel assembly. The brake line sizes and postions are the same - so no problems there- thread is still 10x1mm. The caliper mounts would be fine also. As far as slotted cross-drilled solid rotors vs. factory vented rotors - I think the factory vented are superior. I have the former on my Disco and we put the latter on a friends '87 RRC and it stops much better in comparison. Of course slotted/cross drilled + vented would be even nicer! Bill Bill   Greg Hirst Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 11:36 am:    Thanks-In fact, I've thought of actually buying a complete set (F&R) later model axles and taking my time installing the ARB lockers, etc. so that I would have less down time for my RRC when I actually installed the stuff on the vehicle. I think I can pick up a set for not too much-there's a guy not far from here with a complete '97 Disc I in their back yard that's obviously been rolled and totalled that I've had my eye on. Any comments? Greg H   Bill Bettridge (Billb) Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 04:19 pm:    Greg, Only problem with a Disco as a donor for a front axle is that it has solid rotors, and the calipers are narrow and would need to be spaced and also the calipers are only set up for a single brake line and not the dual line RRC system - though the caliper casting does have a second blanked port that could be drilled and tapped. If possible - I'd hold out for a 91-95 RRC complete front axle for the utmost in swap ease. Bill   Greg Hirst Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 05:46 pm:    Thanks-you saved me alot of research time and maybe a mistake! Greg H   Ali Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 12:00 pm:    You know guys, I remember back in the day when I first acquired my '91 w/ ABS, about five years ago, she stopped too quickly! The pedal response was amazing and it actually was a little freaky to be able to stop this beast faster than my 5.0. So I thought it was wrong somehow and while looking around through the system opened things here and there. Anywho, somehow I managed to introduce some air in the system, just enough to make the vehicle not stop so quickly. This was fine with me. Serves me right for not having the shop manual at the time and try to look into things. The point of this story is that how can a vehicle six years old stop so much better using stock parts? Now that it's 11 yearls old, she doesn't stop as quickly and I'm not surprised. I've been messing with her for the last five years and from the engineering perspective, it's now totally out of the original design parameters. Well, most of it is anyway! I realize adding crap like tires, bumpers, skids, etc. is adding another 500 lbs to the GVWR but that alone shouldn't degrade your braking system. It's prolly due to age and lack of a good maint program. So if you were to bring the entire brake system back into the original condition, you should expect stellar performance, no? This includes lots of seals, pistons, one pump, solenoid valve seals, one accumulator, rebuild one valve body, lots of rubber brake lines, blah, blah,.....! Have a good one.   Todd Phenneger (Toddp) Posted on Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 06:15 am:    In regards to the Spacer kit for the Calipers to add the vented Rotors. I JUST finished this about 10 minutes ago. Just got in from bedding the pads in. I'm using DBA Rotors (Australian slotted, drilled and vented) designed for the later RRC's. THey went onto a 94' Discovery with the same solid rotor you early RRC guys have. I put the spacer in the Caliper (very easy but a touch messy) added the new rotors, wider calipers and kevlar/ALUMINUM pads (I capitalize the Al because most kevlar pads that down work when cold are Carbon Kevlar. These work much better cold. Even tonight at 40deg outside they heated up fast and worked great when bedding them in. Anyhow, I'll post opinions after a week or so. But it is doable, you dont have to change the hub or anything as mounting is the exact same if you use the spacer kit, and its fairly easy. Even if it does mean a late run to SEARS to get a 2 1/16" socket for the axle retaining nut. They didn't have it so I used a 2 1/8" socket that worked fine. ll8r Todd   Greg Hirst (Gregh) Posted on Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 12:19 pm:    Todd- Let me know how these spacers, rotors and pads work for you-I'm interested. BTW, where did you get them and how much? My biggest concern is the calipers leaking where the spacers are installed. I balked at buying new calipers for a long time and rebuilt my own 3 times (new seals & pistons)in 2 years before deciding to buy calipers. I also found a rebuilt that was very reasonable-$115 per caliper + $40 core charge-so far, so good. Thanks Greg H   Bill Bettridge (Billb) Posted on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 11:01 am:    Greg, Just reread what I sent - you actually would need to be on the lookout for a late 93 to 95 RRC front axle. I realized that you said earlier that you wanted to switch to 24 spline stuff, so the late 93's to 95 had the 24 spline Bill   Greg Hirst Posted on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 04:57 pm:    Bill- Thanks for the info-I'm trying to decide if it would be cheaper to build my own axles, purchase new 24 spline for F&R and install while I install ARB's F&R or find a set of late 93 to 95 axles to install ARB's on. If I kept my own axles I would probably try the spacer route with my '89 brakes at the same time. Obviously, if I found a set of later axles for a good price it would settle the matter easily as it would be more of a bolt-in job and solve the 24 spline and brake issue at same time. Thanks again Greg H   Todd Phenneger (Toddp) Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 03:31 am:    Greg, So far so good on my Brakes. The braking at 80mph is excellent. I can induce ABS at 80mph if I try. And with a 5k lb trailer on long downhills I can bleed speed of VERY quickly. In fact I still had more brake left but stopping to fast with a trailer can be dangerous. It was fast enough. Pedal feel is excellent but a touch mushy at the top of the stroke. I did a very fast bleed as it was 3:00am so I probably need to do a more thourough flush and bleed. Oh, and the Bendix Kevlar/Aluminum brakes work great. Work well when stock (similar to stock) and better than stock when hot. (or course I'm not 100% sure my vehice had stock pads on it but either way, they work great when hot and way better thant he Porterfield pads AB sells when they are cold. I use the Porterfields on my track car Audi Quattro for my street pad abut didn't want that on the Rover. As for leaking, Driver caliper is fine. Pass caliper has a tiny leak. I didn't properly torque that one down as I was alone and couldn't get a good grip on it. So I think if I retorque it I'll be fine. I guessed and figure since the calipers use M10 bolts I'd torque to 50lb ft and call it good. One the caliper I properly torqued to 50lb ft there are no leaks so I think thats probably right. I got the spacer from a company in Great Britain. I got the rest of the stuff (DBA rotors and Bendix pads) from Bill at Great Basin rovers. Tell him I sent you if you call him and inquire as to his spacer kit as he may be developing one to save us the importing costs. l8r TOdd   Greg H Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 11:16 am:    Thanks Todd- Greg H   sherrod Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 06:32 pm:    well since i started this thread, i found out what was causing my brake problems...it was the brake booster....replaced it and brakes as should be.   Todd Phenneger (Toddp) Posted on Friday, November 01, 2002 - 01:57 pm:    Sweet, HOw much did the Booster run you? Did you install it yourself. Also, how many miles are on your Rover. Just wondering when I should think about replacing mine. THanks Todd   SHERROD Posted on Friday, November 01, 2002 - 07:00 pm:    THE BOOSTER WAS $200.00 USED...3HOURS LABOR FOR THE MECHANIC TO INSTALL...THE 88RRC HAS 231K ON IT. THE 3.9 MOTOR HAS 137K. MY BRAKES HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SOFT SINCE I GOT IT AT 130K...I DIDNT KNOW ANY DIFFERNET AS I HAVE NOT DRIVEN ANOTHER RR UNTIL THIS PAST OCT.   Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Posted on Friday, November 01, 2002 - 07:20 pm:    Greg, one of the points of four-wheeling is learn how to drive properly. Never - not once - my brakes overheated or got anything but barely warm while going down from Big Bear. On any rig, Disco, rangie, two jeeps, minivan, etc. Nor they ever overheated in Utah or Colorado. Use your gear selector. peter   Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Posted on Friday, November 01, 2002 - 07:24 pm:    Sherrod, your brakes were soft and the new booster fixed it???? wow... Greg, I wonder who's that guy who has a 97 Disco on his backyard that's been rolled and totalled... Wonder if it is around San Diego. peter   Greg H Posted on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 03:45 am:    Peter- Ah yes, engine braking. I agree that driving properly is important in both four-wheeling and otherwise. One of the first things I learned is that BRAKES ARE CHEAPER AND EASIER TO REPLACE THAN ENGINES AND DRIVETRAINS! I also have never had brake fade to the point of a safety hazard. But I also don't drive a diesel which encourages use of engine braking due to high compression helping to slow the vehicle. If you've ever driven down the steep highway from Big Bear on a 110F day at 50-70 MPH then you surely have noticed the rank smell of hot brakes the last 10 Miles into San Bernardino FROM OTHER VEHICLES! However, you may not have noticed because the noise of your engine racing at 5500+ RPM may have distracted you! No, the 97 Disco is in Riverside and the owner says he is just waiting for insurance to pay off and then it's theirs. He can't sell anything off it in the meantime and doesn't know where the insurance company is wrecking it. I didn't ask the obvious which is why it's sitting at his house rather than at a dealership but maybe they would've charged him storage fees after a while. Greg H   Greg H Posted on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 04:00 am:    I should have said "steep and CURVY highway" but I screwed up trying to spell "circurtuous"-hell it's 1AM!