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Todd Little (Todd_Little)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 08:45 pm: | 
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Help... 1992 RRC 3.9L. While driving down the road 30MPH the engine just quit and would not restart. Truck has been towed home and sitting on drive way. The starter turns the engine over. I've confirmed spark to the plugs. Fuse C4 is OK. If I over pump the accelerator I can smell gas under the hood. Other interesting points: a) The new battery will not hold a charge for more than 24/48 hours. Something is obviously discharging it. b) I just replaced the Alternator (new) over the weekend. c) The inner most yellow relay under the driver seat (Seat adjustment relay) was found to be warm even though the vehicle had not been operated for 48 hours. d) The ignition key is frequently difficult to insert/turn to the start/run position. e) have disconnected the positive connector to battery and measured resistance between the positive lead and ground with the doors closed and the hood open found +-150 ohms. Upon manually depressing the engine service lamp switch (hood closure would normally turn the light off) the resistance changed to +- 400 ohms. After removing the yellow seat adjustment relay from the circuit... the resistance changed to +-1200 ohms. Help... |
John Cinquegrana (Johnc)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 10:30 pm: |
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Check fuel: make sure the fuel filter is not clogged and that the inertia switch is not tripped. Check fuel pump connection by the rear left wheel; make sure cables are not corroded or touching muffler causing them to melt.
Check spark: make sure the ALT was connected properly...kinda weird that the battery would drain with a new alt installed.
Good luck |
Ali
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2002 - 12:08 pm: |
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If you're not getting spark but getting fuel, then check your ignition control module (ICM), possibly it's toast. It's located on the side of the dist housing and has a small plug on top. |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2002 - 12:26 pm: |
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check the rotor on the distributor too...
rd |
Todd Little (Todd_Little)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2002 - 07:21 pm: |
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I've pulled off the fuel line between the pump and the fuel filter. There is plenty of pressure going into the filter. I have not yet been able to test between the filter and the engine. Let me restate - the engine DOES have spark all the way to the end of the plug wires. It still bothers me how suddenly the engine originally shut off - there was no hesitation, no caughing - just dead. Any additional thoughts? |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2002 - 08:13 pm: |
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is there an inertia switch under the drivers side seat? it should have a little red button on top...
try pushing that, somthing might have rolled around and hit it
rd |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2002 - 08:17 pm: |
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rereading this is it the starter?
if it has spark, but it needs the help to get it spinning before the combustion can take over.
you dont hear a clicking or anything?
rd |
Jason Vance (Jason)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2002 - 10:50 pm: |
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He says the starter turns the engine over, but how fast is a good question.
Hey, if anything else, check the vacuum line and/or advance on the distributor. If the rotor is stuck fully advanced, the engine may not kick over at very very low rpms (like when starting the vehicle).
Worst case scenario, you completely ground all of the lobes off of your cam. Now the intake valves don't open and no air/fuel mixture gets into the cumbustion chamber. Likelihood of this occurring: very very (very) slim.
Do this, check your plugs, reinstall, then pull the coil-to-distributor lead and crank the engine over. Check to see if the plugs are the slightest bit wet. If not, you have no fuel getting into the chamber (whether you think you have pressure anywhere else or not). |
Jason Vance (Jason)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2002 - 10:54 pm: |
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quote:
"I've pulled off the fuel line between the pump and the fuel filter. There is plenty of pressure going into the filter."
How did you check this...there should be more pressue coming out of that fuel line than you would know what to do with (I don't have a manual sitting in front of me...but doesn't 40-60+ psi sound right...dealing with this pressure with air is one thing, liquid is another!!!). I wouldn't be able to differentiate between 20 psi and 40 psi without a guage. I suggest you get one and check. |
Will Tillery (Will)
| | Posted on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 02:51 pm: |
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Check the cabling from the starter to the alternator. SOunds like the starter is burning you up. I had the same thing go wrong and the exhaust manifold had burnt through my start to alternator cable which lead to other issues. |
Jason Vance (Jason)
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 01:30 pm: |
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Why would this be the starter? He says his engine turns over fine. And unless that cable was grounding out, it would not cause the discharge.
Todd, I'm now considering your electronic tests you performed. In a perfect situation where all circuits were open (i.e. nothing was on), your continuity tests should not yield any value. However, closed circuits (like the underhood lamp when the hood is up) completes a positive to negative circuit through the lightbulb (itself a resistor) and cause resistance.
Okay, the more resistance you have in the system, the better; this means that whatever circuit is closed, it has a high path of resistance to flow through. The lower the resistance is, the more potential paths there are for electricity to flow through. By you registering a higher resistance after pulling the yellow relay, this suggests that there is a closed circuit south of that relay (i.e. seat adjustment mechanisms), that could be indicative of either a grounding-out or short of the electrics responsible for adjusting the seat. Removing the relay (which created a path of "least resistance due to the closed circuits) forced the continuity to flow through another closed circuit (keep in mind that there exist several closed circuits while the ignition is off...clock, engine ECU, etc. that will register some resistance when checking continuity through the positive-negative circuit).
Try removing the yellow relay for a period of time and see how it affects the discharging of your battery. |
Todd Little (Todd_Little)
| | Posted on Sunday, November 24, 2002 - 03:59 pm: |
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UPDATE � fresh back from a business trip.
I�m still scratching my head on this one. I�m looking at this as two separate problems. 1) failure to start. 2) semi rapid battery discharge. Granted the problems could be related � first things first. Earlier the strength of the starter was questioned � I don�t think this is an issue. The starter turn the engine over at �normal� speed. Also someone was questioning spark to the plugs. I confirm spark to the plugs.
How can I confirm that fuel is being squirted into each cylinder? Can I test the electrical signal at the fuel injector? If yes � how � what should I be looking for? Additionally, what would the symptoms be like if the cam chain/sprocket had failed? Is the use of a compression tester the only way to confirm the valves are opening and closing correctly? |
GregH
| | Posted on Sunday, November 24, 2002 - 04:51 pm: |
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Sounds like you're on the right track-a good guess is the timing chain (I hate those GM-type nylon gears!). You could check static timing by setting crank at 6 degrees BTDC and see if rotor is pointing at #1 cyl on dist. (make sure that #1 piston is at top of comp stroke!) A quick & dirty diagnostic is that you could also hold hand over exhaust pipe with someone turning engine over-if cam is way off you'll feel strong pulsing (air sucking/pushing).
However, with the seeming electrical prob-double check your alt connections to see if you inadvertently hooked up wires wrong overloading a circuit and blowing something?
The workshop manual has testing procedures for testing a ton of stuff even though PITA. Try the easy things first like checking to see if connection to amp module on dist is fully plugged in. Also check conditions of wires going to amp module plug. These can get hard and, if twisted, crack and break or fuse together. I think this could cause signal to EFI to be confused and not operate injectors correctly even though there's fuel pressure. (I'm really guessing at this point!!)
Good luck-
GregH |
GregH
| | Posted on Sunday, November 24, 2002 - 05:01 pm: |
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On last thought-you didn't say where you got the alternator-if it's one of those "lifetime warranty" Pep boys or other bargain alts I wouldn't trust them. You could easily have it tested to verify working correctly. If it took a dive I'd demand my money back and get a good Bosch or Delco rebuilt (could upgrade to higher amp alt too). |
Bill Ross (Billr)
| | Posted on Monday, November 25, 2002 - 05:08 pm: |
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In regard to checking whether the injectors are firing (and thus delivering fuel to the cylinder), pull a plug. In "normal" non-running situations, the plug end should be wet with fuel. My bet is it will be dry, indicating an electrical problem preventing the injectors from firing. Even a busted cam chain (I can't believe that wiped lobes would make an engine quite dead), would produce a dry plug if the injectors are firing properly. Now what electrical problem? Who knows, but considering the truck was running fine and just quit, check to make sure that all your sensor and similar harness connection are solid and all. Just as a final thought, have you checked the integrity of all the secondary wiring going to the battery terminals, the block grounds, etc. Sounds to me like a loose electrical connection somewhere. |
CHRIS
| | Posted on Thursday, November 28, 2002 - 07:51 pm: |
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THE TIMMING CHAIN IS BROKEN |
Craig Alexander (Craig89rr)
| | Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 03:41 pm: |
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hey Todd, ....heres what you need to look for... im assuming on this....fuel is getting to where it needs to go....you have spark(but good spark? ) check the color. assuming your coil is fine. check 2 things....your ignition module, which will shut ur engine down when it overheats, which is one forest gump design from rover(hence the relocation kit),but should start once cooled, not always tho, and the baseplate pickup is the first thing i would replace.it keeps spark up with timing advance. and did you have idle and stumbling troubles when you stomp on the gas pedal? and did you replace the alt before or after this issue since the battery wont hold a charge now. |
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