Vermont folks, Need your help.

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Author Message   Sean Hanagan (Seanh) Posted on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 10:12 pm:    The family is thinking of a move from the mountains of Colorado to Vermont. We need a little help. We would like to know of some good places to look. Our priorities are: Good schools Strong community Recreation (Skiing, cycling(road and mountain), and wheeling.) As for work I'm a teacher and the wife is corporate finance ( T. Rowe Price) Thanks in advance for any info.   Dana Giles (Dana_G) Posted on Monday, November 18, 2002 - 11:40 pm:    Although I currently live in Oklahoma, I'm a native Vermonter. If I were you I'd look into the Rutland area. It's the second largest city in Vt, with a huge population approaching 30000 Killington is very close by which has all of the recreational activities you're looking for. As for wheeling, pretty much anywhere in Vt, gotta love it....I miss it! The Rutland community is pretty strong, and the surrounding towns are all quite nice as well. I'm from Rutland Town myself. The schools in the area are quite good. Rutland High School is quite exceptional (ok, I might be a bit biased, my father is the director of fine arts for the Rutland City School System) You may be in for a bit of a shock as a teacher however. Vermont teachers aren't payed that well unless they happen to be administrators. As far as Rovers go, there are actually a lot of options. The only dealership in the state is in Burlington...about 1.5hrs from Rutland. There is a place in Springfield, about an hour from Rutland called D.A.P. They have a certified Rover mechanic and only charge $42/hr labor. If you happen to have several hundred bucks to spend, you can enjoy a day at the LR driving school in Manchester, also about an hour from Rutland. And of course, there is also Rovers North. Good luck, let me know where you end up and I can recommend some wheeling areas   gp (Garrett) Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 03:04 pm:    i use to live in Burlington for a few years. that is the largest town in the state and has the most 'opportunities' i would think. vermont is a state that is always on the edge economically. the resorts are not doing great and many large businesses moved out of town over the past 10 years. but regardless burlington is a GREAT town to live in. beautiful to say the least. right on lake champlain with mountains to your east and west. you have stowe, smugglers notch, sugarbush, jay peak and other moutains within an hour or less. and in the summer the lake has plenty to offer as do many of the great rivers and streams. and within 15 of town you can live in a very rural setting. there is not much that i can say that would not want to make you live there. well if you don't like winters then you are SOL. they are long and cold!!! but if you ski you will be one happy camper and your 'sick' days will be used up primarily in january for some odd reason. burlington has great restaurants, bars, people, activites and setting. and montreal is only 1.5 hours to the north. don't expect to make much $$ up there. Chittenden Bank is a large employer up there as are some smaller businesses like Burton and other various some tech companies and outdoor oriented companies. i can go on and on here, but i have to pee. if you have any more questions post back and i am sure someone here can answer it for you. as for riding. shit.....it's endless. catamount (10 min. from town) has tons of MTB trails and XC trails in the winter. as do most of the ski resorts. there are even some good local trails around town in the winooski area and st. mikes college area. good luck.   Dana Giles (Dana_G) Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 03:24 pm:    gp pretty much hit the nail on the head there. Vt is a great place to live, but not a great place to make money. As I mentioned the teachers are not payed particularly well, and the state is not at all business friendly. Vermont politics are giving California and Massachusettes a run for their money in becoming the most liberal in the nation. That combined with extreme environmental laws is driving away current business and hindering any further business development. Despite having a few options for Rover service and sales spread throughout the state, you'll find nobody in Vt drives them! Any you do see will have out of state tags. Of a group of about 15 close friends from high school that went on to college, only ONE still lives in Vt. Like I said, I love the area, but the opportunity for white collar careers is really pretty bad at the moment.   Snowman Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 04:55 pm:    I presently live in VT and everything Gp and Dana said concerning it is 100% true. GP's description of Burlington was dead on. If you are interested in relocation services and IMHO the best Realtor by far, go to this site: http://www.vt-homes.com/,http://www.vt-homes.com/ If you phone ask for Judy and she can get you info on schools ect. Any other questions just post away, I'll help if I can.   Snowman Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 05:02 pm:    Oops I messed up the link. Hey I've been outside it's cold! Try this: http://www.vt-homes.com/ S-   JMcD Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 06:58 pm:    Hey sean, at the risk of offending some people, I must say that I think Vermont sucks. Sorry. The land is beautiful but in my opinion the people are what is wrong. The politics are so liberal they threw James Carvell out for right wing tendencies and the tax / business climate is less than friendly. Sorry, like I said, just my opinion. That being said, right next to VT. is the greatest state in the country, New Hampshire. We have no sales tax, no state income tax, in fact the only (state)tax you pay is property tax. We have great Ski Mtns, Loon, Bretton woods, Cannon, Waterville Valley, Wildcat, etc. Not to mention close proximity to the Atlantic Ocean. Great hiking, fishing, boating, wheeling and no civil unions anywhere to be found (vermonters know what I mean). We have excellent schools and hardly any Democrats to be found. Oh, and our State Motto is "Live Free or Die" Just thought you should know Sean, Good Luck JmcD   Dana Giles (Dana_G) Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 09:12 pm:    JmcD, Heh, no argument here. I'm 'bout as conservative as they come. Living in Oklahoma whenever I mention I'm from Vt I usually get laughed at. If Sean's not got his heart set on moving to VT, NH would indeed be a great place to move. He'd probably be better compensated as a teacher, and his wife would have a far easier time finding a job in her specialty. If you want an idea of VT's politics just look who it sends to D.C. Sen Leahy...Democrat, Sen Jeffords...used to be liberal Republican, now Independant who votes with Democrats. Now for the ultimate prize winner, Vt has the only declared Socialist in D.C. (makes me sick every time I think about it) Bernie Sanders, independant, the most liberal liberals are not liberal enough for him. His voting history shows he's never voted other than the Democrat position. Yup VT's liberal as hell, basically you have lotsa rich folk retiring from Boston and New York City moving to VT. They've already made their money, and don't particularly care about enacting legislation that prevents others from doing so. They're trying to create the liberal utopia and just now starting to realize it has a devastating effect on business. Eventually, and I think it's already beginning the state will swing back the other way. Well, enough political ranting. Vermont, much to my chagrin, is exceptionally liberal. If the Dems are your party, or you're a Republican who enjoys a challenge, you'll love Vt politics. If you're a Democrat I'd recommend staying away from NH, cause they don't tend to tolerate em   Sean Hanagan (Seanh) Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 09:54 pm:    Democrats we are, and we are considering leaving Colorado for that very reason. We live in a VERY conservative county in the mountains. The one thing we can say is our property tax in very minimal. What is the downside? Our roads are shitty, our schools are mediocre at best and getting worse every day, we have no facilities(libraries, community center) and most people here are convinced that the government is out to get them?????? Being a teacher and a parent you can see why the school situation is a double hit for us. Not only are the schools overcrowded and underfunded but the good teachers are fleeing in droves. This district is the lowest paing district in the region. We just need a change and Vermont might just be the place. We have heard from Rutland and Burlington, is there any place else to look?   Dana Giles (Dana_G) Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 10:35 pm:    Well, you're going to find that by population Vt is liberal, geographically it's probably more conservative than where you're at now. The population centers (Burlington and Rutland) carry the state politically. Most people living in the countryside are old fashioned conservatives who are convinced the Govt is out to get them I'm not sure what your experience level as a teacher is but basically if you're just starting out you can expect to make about $22000, if you're mid career $30-35000, approaching retirement, about $40000. Administrative salaries start at about $50000 up to $100,000 for a sup.   Sean Hanagan (Seanh) Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 10:52 pm:    There is no such thing a more conservative than where we are. With regard to teaching Im a career changer with six years in now and I still dont make my age 33. Not bad for a guy with an environmental engineering degree We are thinking of simplifying our lives and raising our son in a strong community that values education ( something we don't have here). As far as salaries go that's preety bad! But who says I have to teach.   Dana Giles (Dana_G) Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 11:38 pm:    "There is no such thing a more conservative than where we are" Heh, don't say I didn't warn you In certain parts of Vt you want to be careful what speed you walk through town. If you're walking too fast the farmer sitting on his porch will shout "what'd you steal" and shoot you dead, walk too slow and he'll shout "what're you lookin at?" and shoot you dead. Ok, a bit of an exaggeration, but rural Vt natives don't take well to those "from away" One of my good friends' family moved to a rural Vt town about 20 years ago, they're still called flatlanders! As far as education goes, I can only speak to the Rutland area. Rutland Town Elementary is very high ranked. I went to Mill River Union High School in Clarendon, just south of Rutland. At the time it was in the top 3 Vt high schools, it has since gone downhill....way downhill. Rutland Highschool is now the best in the area, it's doing very well and has an excellent staff. The school is run much like a college with about as close to an open campus as you can get. The community is very strong in Rutland. It's downtown revitalization program has done wonders over the last 5 years or so. It still doesn't have quite the atmosphere of Burlington, but too many pot-smoking birkenstock wearing tree hugging (I forget exactly the category title in the Princeton Review for UVM) hippy college students up there for me. Rutland does have a current heroin problem, as does Burlington, but the police are VERY proactive in taking care of it. Also, thanks to the fact that if you break into a house in Vt you can bet on being met by the wrong end of a gun, crime is quite low. Rutland had a gang try to establish itself a few years ago, and they were sent packing in a matter of months.   Dana Giles (Dana_G) Posted on Tuesday, November 19, 2002 - 11:46 pm:    I just couldn't resist adding in this link. It's a pretty good description of gool ole VT; http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A632558   Snowman Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 08:04 am:    Sean- We say in Vermont the nicest thing about Burlington is "That it's close to Vermont". Burlington is hardly typical of what you would find in 80% of the state, no one can argue that. The majority of people from out of state that move here from larger areas seldom leave the Greater Burlington Area. They want a little of the "Vermont Lifestyle" but can't stand missing a sale at Walmart and they have withdrawl DT's if they are more than a block away from a Showtime Video Store. So they land in Burlington and it fills their need. These are the people many native Vermonters can't stand. Bottom line is you need to hop a plane and drive the state a bit. It's not a big deal it will only take you about 3 days to see the majority of it. It takes 2-3 hours to drive across it and about 6 to drive it lengthwise if you speed. Being a poor state we hardly have any Troopers so it's not a big deal. Personally I plan to lay big black skids marks out of here the exact hour my kids graduate from college (a long time unfortunately). You may ask why wait? My children are settled and the school system is excellent. They are my #1 priority and they love it here. However I refuse to grow old in this cold weather.   Snowman Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 08:14 am:    Dana- If you think that gangs are not active in Rutland anymore you need to make a call home and ask again. Sorry but they are. The same goes for Burlington and many other areas. Where there is a market, they will come. We all know drug dealers need to be handed the harshest penalty the law allows, but it never happens, it's very sad. S-   Dana Giles (Dana_G) Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 10:06 am:    Snowman, I hear ya. I'm sure they're still around but certainly not in the limelight like they were back in the mid 90's. I was thinking about Los Doritos (solidos) who tried to come up from Mass. Let's just say they had a few problems with some good ole boys with baseball bats. After that they learned to stick to themselves and not try to recruit locally. Obviously, like you said, where there's a market they will indeed come. As far as punishment goes, yeah Vt still doesn't believe that criminals belong behind bars. I read the Rutland (Russian) Herald online frequently. One of my favorite's is Rutland's frequent flyer....he's busted conditions of release 13 times and the judge keeps giving him 1 more chance. The cops are doing their job busting the bastards but the courts won't punish em. A major dealer busted with several ounces of heroin can look forward to a one year suspended sentence. But hey, they're victims of society right? They didn't make choices that led them to a life of crime, we did it to them. They were born into poverty and had to get into drugs to survive, blah, blah, blah ad infinitum.   Snowman Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 10:45 am:    Dana- You are correct I had forgot about that time. Another huge problem is the cost to house them when they are put away. It's a huge burden on our system which is not exactly flooded with money as you are aware. Recently VT sent some inmates were sent out of state to save a few bucks. Their family's complained it was harsh treatment to be that far from their loved ones. Harsh treatment? how about the citizen that was violated? It's a gigantic mess. I have no doubt being in jail would suck but hey we make our own choices.   Dana Giles (Dana_G) Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 12:12 pm:    I'm pretty much of the mindset that prison should be punishment not a lifestyle choice. I'm all for rehab programs in prison for first time offenders, but there is no way it should cost $30k/yr/inmate. Cable TV, no way, gyms so they can work out and become more dangerous upon release, get real. Recreational programs, hell no. Sit rotting in your cell thinking about what you did to get there, and then decide if that is how you want to spend the rest of your life. Harsh treatment, yup, and that's exactly what's merited. I can't understand people more concerned with the criminal than the victim. I have absolutely zero sympathy for those that break the law and harm law abiding citizens.   Sean Hanagan (Seanh) Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 01:35 pm:    Man did this post take a turn or what?   Snowman Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 02:21 pm:    Sean- Sorry, partly my fault. Just trying to help and got carried away a bit. I wish you all the luck, I am sure you will be welcomed wherever you land in VT. S-   Dana Giles (Dana_G) Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 04:26 pm:    Thread Hijack   gp (Garrett) Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 07:19 pm:    and lets not forget about same sex marriages. i hear blue and rob d. are moving to the true city of brotherly love!! haha. i like NH too, but never lived there, so i am still partial to VT. i just think Burlington is so ideal for so many reasons. you are still within a reasonable distance from cities......like i said montreal is 1.5 hours away and Boston is about 3. and true Burlington really feels more like a mini-Boston out in the sticks than anything. considering where it is and the population it has some great food, bars and culture. unlike central Pennsyltucky where i live. well actually State College is pretty nice. i just can't stand it when the sleazy Queebers from Montreal come down in their mesh dress shirts and blazers with their god all mighty attitudes. Burlington has been ranked numerous times by different magazines as one of the top places to live. i have lived in MANY places along the east and Burlington easily is #1 on my list. but what keeps me from it now is the lack of a job that i could really be comfortable with. i will some day have a place up there. no question. the quality of life there is not equalled by many places in this country i have been. good people, good beer, good lifestyle. can't beat it. how can you not like a town where people just randomly say "HI" as you walk down the street or where you never have to wait to cross a street regardless of where you are in town. traffic stops and you go. well unless you have Mass plates. move there. you can have my truck if you hate it. just be sure to invite me up when you get up there. just be careful if you see Zak up there leaf peeping in the fall. he has a think for moose. it's pretty sick i know.   Dana Giles (Dana_G) Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 08:15 pm:    Well, since you mention Boston, there is actually a place in Vt called New Boston, and you'll need a Rover to get there It's an old long since abandoned settlement way out in the woods, nice wheeling trip to get there.   adifranco70 Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 08:45 pm:    JMcD, Where in NH? I live just outside of manchester. We should go wheeling sometime.   L_Tilly Posted on Tuesday, November 26, 2002 - 03:00 pm:    I know I'm a little late coming to this party, but as a NH resident I wanted to throw in my two-cents. I actually live in central NH, near the southern tip of the largest lake in the state. Boston is only about 1.5 hours south, with both bus and train options for commuting (my wife uses the bus line). In addition, you have four good size cities (by NH/VT/ME standards) within 45 minutes (Portsmouth, Concord & Manchester plus Portland, ME). School systems are pretty good based on reports (our first munchkin is due in Feb, so I have no first-hand experience here). Depending on where you live crime is pretty minimal. In fact, we often see vehicles left running and unlocked while someone runs into the post office or video store (this changes during tourist season, when a degree of "unsavory-characters" come visit from down south). Boston pays very well for the New England region, but the cost of living is horrible. As you follow an expanding ring away from Boston pay and CoL drop at a fairly steady rate. What this means is you can often find someplace beautiful to live at a reasonable cost and still get a good paycheck if you're willing to commute a short distance. For example, in the area we were renting (about 30 minutes north of the Mass border) generic capes on 0.5 acre lots were selling for $250k easily. We moved about 40 minutes north, got a 3yr old custom home on 5+ wooded acres (attached to regional snowmobile network), mountain view, etc. all for a lot less $. I visited CO a few times while stationed in Nebraska. When my second tour in the AF was over my wife (fiance at the time) and I seriously considered moving to CO due to the way it effected us. However, her family is all from ME so we came back east, and New Hampshire has never disappointed us for its beauty and what it offers us: winter skiing; hiking, camping, canoeing in the summer; beautiful season changes; ocean and lake activities; museums + cultural events (especially in Boston); privacy & small town living; Kittery Trading Post and LLBeans; Equinox LR Driving school nearby in VT; and the Granite State Land Rover Union (GSLRU) is a great group of people to ride with! Lawrence lnctilly@metrocast.net 96 Disco - Beowulf - NH, USA   johnb Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 06:31 pm:    i live in vt.low income,high taxes{sales,income,and property},and more bullshit zoning and enviromental laws than are necessary.the roads suck,schools are marginal,and the cost of living high.most of the anti-buisness laws and other bs laws,gay marriage,come from the same place.rich liberal out of staters who move up here and don't have to work so they frig everything up.want welfare,move to vt,easiest state to collect in.i can not reccomend anyone to move here.i myself am planing to move out.probably just next door to new hampshire.all that said its a nice place to be from and/or visit.