| Author |
Message |
    
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 01:39 pm: | 
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Well, I'm getting close to running out of means to get my rangie to run cool.
It runs consistently warmer than a year ago, despite many changes that supposedly should have made it run better and cooler. In fact, it runs warmer than when I bought it (with inop vacuum advance, plugged cats and mufflers, broken fan, seized clutch, inexistent fan shroud, and nearly blocked radiator). Now the exhaust is completely replaced, thermostat replaced, rad recored, fan/clutch/shroud replaced the twin electric fan setup (this early morning), and other bugs fixed - and the bugger still runs warm, with only 70F outside.
any suggestions? the only thing unchanged is the water pump - are those known to gradually decease as opposed to more common catastrophic failure?
BTW, Perrone was right about the stock fan vs any electrical concoctions - it does move a shitload more air than electrics. This morning, I did not have to turn on the pusher aux. fans, and it ran a bit cooler than before.
peter |
John Cinquegrana (Johnc)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 02:05 pm: |
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Peter, a stupid question (coming from a stupid person) but where are you reading the temp from?
John C. |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 02:21 pm: |
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John,
a stupid answer to you - from the gauge on the dashboard. I don't have much trust in it, but I believe the sender doesn't change, and I see it running warmer.
my gauge seems to be reasonably calibrated - mid-way through the white zone, the infrared temp. gun reads about 92-97C (about 200F). And that's where it seems to settle now, with thermostat being 180F rated.
peter |
John Cinquegrana (Johnc)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 02:45 pm: |
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I was asking cause I know mine does not read the right temp. Sometimes it reads mid-way, most of the times it read only 1/4... I really don't trust the stock temp gauge.
But if you used an infrared temp gun than I guess your temp is accurate...
I replaced the fan clutch on my CJ with a Flex-a-lite and it does help but I don't think I would want to put one on the Rangie, I can't afford to loose an ounce of power from the engine...
Good luck.
John C. |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 03:01 pm: |
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Flex-a-lite... I did this thing once on my fullsize Cherokee - and tossed it soon after. It was nowhere close to the stock fan with a heavy-duty clutch (Hayden 2747, I believe you can use the same unit on a 304).
Power loss is not that noticeable. Say, I haven't noticed ANY power gain after tossing twin electric fans and replacing them with an engine-driven stocker with a healthy clutch.
i really hope it's not a beginning of a head gasket leak...
peter |
John Cinquegrana (Johnc)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 03:06 pm: |
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Hmmm, I have the 258 in the CJ, maybe my fan clutch wasn't the heavy duty kind...
Everyone told me I would have a decrease in power if I installed the engine drive fan...but I didn't notice any....
Hey, George S. is on his way out west, maybe he can help you replace your head gasket like he helped me last Feb. Just feed him some coffee and smokes...  |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 03:45 pm: |
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LOL
i really, really hate to tear into the engine that runs. maybe it's head gasket season for me - the cherokee needs rebuilt heads, 68 wag definitely has at least one valve seat sunk into the head, and now rangie... and they all run.
wonder how many miles is there on George's RR. last time he mentioned 370k.
peter |
John Moore (Jmoore)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 03:50 pm: |
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A head gasket leak could cause overheating. I blew a head gasket in my 88RRC and the symptoms started with the loss of coolant in the expansion tank, then bubbles. I never really had a problem with overheating, but most do.
I ended up replacing the head gaskets myself.
Also after the rebuild, I flushed the system, used antifreeze with distilled water and Water Wetter which is supposed to make it run 10 degrees cooler.
Peter, how many miles, what year? |
John Cinquegrana (Johnc)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 03:53 pm: |
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EXTREEEEMME miles you mean...
Yep, I had the same symptons as John Moore except mine did overheat once, just days before I headed over to George's to fix. Took us two full days and 30 cans of carb cleaner to fix it.
Now if I can get him to help me install the 4.6 I have laying around in my backyard...gotta start making some coffee for when he gets back.... |
John Moore (Jmoore)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 03:59 pm: |
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Mine took 30 cans of beer to fix it... LOL
-John |
Shane
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 04:00 pm: |
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are you sure it is not the radiator(again)?
I've heard that the recores don't last long.
Then again I've also heard they are better.
50/50 water to antifreeze?
distilled water?
live in a warm enough climate to reduce antifreeze %? |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 05:38 pm: |
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well... the recore's been only 3 mo ago, kinda hard to believe it's already a goner. the same shop rodded my jeep's radiator, and the bastard runs cool now even without the fan shroud.
it's warm enough here not to worry about coolant freezing - but water doesn't have anti-corrosion additives that are present in antifreeze.
EXTREEEEEEEMMMEE miles... lol... just a couple hundred easy miles in the desert and mountains. and unknown number of highway/city miles, the odometer is broken.
at present, it doesn't lose coolant, and it is difficult to see if there are any bubbles (but definitely not a whole lot).
peter |
ron a
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 09:00 pm: |
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hey pm time to face the music.. rr radiators were designed by the axel dept. (grin)
get a hi-flow rad, kinda pricey (~$450 just for the core itself) then have a shop build it to the lr specs. well worth it.
ron a |
Greg Hirst (Gregh)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 11:17 pm: |
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When you flushed your system did you notice any surprising amounts of crap coming out? I'm wondering if you've got an electrical short causing galvanic corrosion in your jackets or radiator (could start blocking radiator in short amount of time but usually affects aluminum rads worse). This could also break loose and block your thermostat and when you go to check it it floats back into block only to flow back into thermostat and block it. I had this happen (on another vehicle) with a piece of gasket that the DEALERSHIP allowed to fall into the cooling system and it took me gallons of distilled water to flush out (after several complaint trips to dealer).
I also keep TWO extra NEW temp senders as backup and that's the first thing I change out when I have high temp reading from my dash gauge (just to rule out that as problem. For some reason on my RRC I have to replace it about every 20-25k miles.
I also noticed on your other posts that your RRC uses oil (re:spark plugs) If your RRC is burning oil then who knows if your new cats might be pluggin up prematurely? However, I assume this has been problem prior to replacement of cats?
I'm assuming that your dynamic timing is correct and dist advance correct-but what about static timing? Have you replaced your timing chain? If not than it may be off due to lovely nylon teeth wearing on gear allowing timing to slip and thus run hot.
I'd check these areas before biting the bullet and pulling heads.
Good luck-
My (lengthy)2 cents
GregH |
Greg Hirst (Gregh)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 11:19 pm: |
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Just a note-I've had water pumps that looked normal and not leak actually have impellar separate from shaft and thus not be moving much coolant even though appearing to be turning normally- |
Greg Hirst (Gregh)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 11:34 pm: |
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Lastly-have you done the "boiling the thermostat on the stove" test? I've had new thermostats that only partially opened-but it's a long shot. |
Jon Santana (Mustache)
| | Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 12:32 pm: |
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my 88 rrc has just started running hot. it only seems to happen when i am getting off the freeway, then it settles back down after a few minutes...
gonna be a long weekend.
J. Santana |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 01:37 pm: |
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Greg,
lots of questions...
static timing: i doubt it would idle at all if the timing chain slipped a tooth; the idle's good,
and the vacuum at idle is good as well. don't think there's a big issue there.
crap in the cooling system: before i replaced the radiator, i've been flushing it every now and then. there was some crap coming out of it, but nowhere as much as from my jeep's engine.
oil burning: it doesn't burn a lot of oil, burn and leak total about a quart in 3kmi, no noticeable blue smoke even upon the start-up.
plugged cats: I believe they were plugged when DSPO (dumb shit previous owner) was running it forever with inop vacuum advance, and tried every trick to get more power (disconnected vacuum from fuel rail pressure regulator and such). the engine now seems to have decent power, however, i haven't double-checked the drop in vacuum under load since i replaced the cats.
thermostat: no, i haven't done the kettle test on it. i've got a new - and better flowing - thermostat a couple of days ago, maybe will find half an hour to put it in.
impeller falling off the pump: possible but unlikely, for it would severely overheat right off the bat. however, I am not opposed to replacing the water pump - how much of a pain in the ass is it on the rover 3.9? any bolts known to break off leaving no stump to grab onto? how expensive is a new water pump?
peter |
Greg Hirst (Gregh)
| | Posted on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 02:29 pm: |
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Peter-
You can find them for under $100 nowadays (rebuilts anyways) for many diff places. Your local import parts place may carry them and online at carparts.com, gprparts.com as well as the popular rover vendors like atlantic british and rovers north. I haven't used a rebuilt so can't say if good. I bought a new one (I think at landroverpartsdirect.com?)
Anyway, if you do decide to go for the water pump I would do the timing chain too as your part way there already (just timing cover, pulleys, and oil pan) and that nylon GM-type timing gear makes me nervous-I replaced with Cloyes tru-roller but theres other good steel double roller chains out there for less. Rover uses same timing set as buick v6.
On doing water pump it seems every bolt you remove is different size/length so I mark each one separatly and that way no confusion putting new pump on as to where each one goes. I recommend using a thick water pump gasket as opposed to the paper thin ones as the thin ones tend to fold over and are a pain to put on. Of course I didn't use hylomar on gasket like workshop manual recommends and that would have helped. I personally use Felpro gray bolt prep thread lube on all waterpump/timing cover bolts that are exposed to coolant to prevent corrosion but you may find you need to replace some bolts if rusty/corroded. I haven't had any bolts break off when removing but no promises. Try gentle approach.
For oil pan I use red silicone on both sides of oil pan gasket. I've only used the cork-type oil pan gasket which I don't like and think they're are one reason for leaks at rocker covers and oil pan (IMHO)
Good luck- |
GregH
| | Posted on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 02:36 pm: |
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Also-if you do the timing cover remember to repack oil pump with petroleum jelly-otherwise it won't prime itself on start-up |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 03:12 pm: |
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thanks Greg,
more or less the same stuff as on any other engine. have that big jar of ("Petroleum jelly? you mean, vaseline? you've gotta go to a drug store) at home left over from a number of jeep oil pump rebuilds.
BTW, speaking of gaskets - someone told me about this, and i've used this technique for tens of times with excellent results:
- use gasket cinch (essentially, a spray glue) on the side of the gasket that goes to the cover (applies to any cover or pan), and stick the gasket to the cover;
- smear an even bead of RTV on the other side of the gasket, and let it sit for a few minutes,
- smear a very thin layer of oil on the surface that the gasket will lay on, and
- slap the cover back on, and tighten the bolts as required.
this way, the RTV forms a half-cured gasket that is allowed to slip along the mating surface without being teared. I've only done it once on my jeep's rear diff cover, and have the cover off and on for maybe four times. Never had to replace the gasket, and never had a slightest leak. Same thing for the valve cover gaskets.
peter |
GregH
| | Posted on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 10:07 pm: |
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Sounds good to me-thanks!
GregH |
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