| Author |
Message |
    
Mark & Bev Preston (Markp)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 01:41 pm: | 
|
AP - "Ford Motor Co. on Tuesday reported U.S. vehicle sales fell more than 20 percent in November compared with sales in the same month a year ago. ...,... The automaker's Land Rover unit showed sales that rose 39 percent from those during November 2001, ...."
Good job Land Rover. From both the Colorado Springs and Denver dealers the new Range Rover is doing great. Freelander intro doesn't hurt either.
- Mark |
Carter Simcoe (Carter)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 01:46 pm: |
|
yeah, but it's just gonna teach them that more-yuppie = more-money |
Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 02:04 pm: |
|
I'm interested in the model sales breakdown. Were the new Rangies on the showroom floor last year? If the sales weren't up this year I would be worried given that Land Rover now has 3 models to sell and even the "old" model was given a facelift. |
James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 03:38 pm: |
|
Al,
check out http://media.ford.com/newsroom/release_display_test.cfm?article_id=13582&id=80&art_ids=13847,13789,13732,13727,13590,13582,13522,13504,13452,13415&sec=
for a model breakdown.
Jaime |
Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 04:26 pm: |
|
So now looking at the real figures to October it's no longer very impressive if you look at all increase in sales came from the Freelander and new Rangie. Even the facelift on the D2 wasn't enough to lift sales... either they need to go back to basics and offer things like the CDL in the US market or it will go the way of the Freelander and Rangie with IFS/IRS. As a comparison BMW is selling the 4.4i X5 at a pace of about 1000 vehicles per month or 4,000 X5's per month for all the differt engine offerings. And that's a vehicle that's been in the market since 2000MY. |
Mike Rupp (Mike_Rupp)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 05:35 pm: |
|
Al, do you really think that adding CDL is really going to change anything saleswise? Since I've been reading the posts on the Discoweb for the last year or so, I can't tell you how many times I read about someone who had problems with their diff-lock lever after purchasing their Discos. The people that actually off-road are in the vast minority. I think LR would gladly dump the enthusiast consumers to get more market share in mainstream (soccer mom) segment.
The reason for the success of the Freelander is the Brand Loyalty / Identity built by the previous models. Where they stand to lose is if they don't keep the Land Rover brand distinct from other brands. If they become viewed by the marketplace as equal to other brands, surely LR won't be able to compete. |
Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 06:04 pm: |
|
No, I don't think the CDL alone will increase sales. But as you said if LR isn't seen as distinct from other brands and becomes just another watered down bloated station wagon or Mini-van without the sliding door sales will fall in the long run. People don't buy Land Rovers because they're know for being safe dependable vehicles that will run to 300k miles with only oil changes. They don't have high resale values. I agree with you that it's all in the pedigree but the CDL is a starting point to keep the line pure. Right now there isn't a single good offroad vehicle sold by Land Rover in the US. The new Rangie is nice as long as everything works but it's overkill for what should be a simple tool. The D2 has 3 open diffs and the Freelander doesnt' even have a low range much less a CDL.
The Rubicon TJ's and the G500 is the only real option in the US now (IMO) for a new off road vehicle. How long can Land Rover keep up the reputation without a real offering here in the US? Five or eight years? Then it will be competing with Subaru but with less build quality. |
James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 06:10 pm: |
|
Another concern is the money Ford is losing. From a recent article in Forbes: "This year Jaguar is losing $500 million, and I figure that Land Rover, which makes expensive sport utility vehicles, is losing $100 million to $200 million." article is here http://www.forbes.com/columnists/forbes/2002/1209/088.html
if dumping the enthusiast market will improve the bottom line, my guess is that will be the route taken. however, my crystal ball is not too clear today.
Jaime |
Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 07:23 pm: |
|
"...dumping the enthusiast market will improve the bottom line..."
Yes, but for how long? Do you really think a Freelander buyer will be a repeat buyer? Again, these vehicles are not loved for their maintenance free service they offer their owners. I think we need the Freelander and as much as I would hate to see it happen maybe even the Discovery needs to be softer for Land Rover to survive but there is room for the Defender as a true utility vehicle and not a soft ute. Just look at Jeep and Diamler-Chrysler. At least they're going in the right direction.
These current sales figures don't impress me much since the only real cause for the increase is a new lower price model. It was expected. I'm actually worried that the sales of the current Disco didn't go up a little with the new engine but then it's not a vehicle a true enthusiast would buy anyway.
The TJ isn't a huge seller when compared to the Caravan but it's always been a known constant and they're working it with the Rubicon. |
Carter Simcoe (Carter)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 07:48 pm: |
|
Dumping the enthusiast market would in my opinion be shooting them selves in the foot. Sure most of these things are sold to poseurs who want the image of being "rugged and outdoorsy", but what propels these poseurs to buy into the image???? Drum roll........... : the enthusiasts. If people ever stopped taking these things offroad and doing the stuff we do with them, they will lose a lot of the image they are trying to sell and Rovers will become nothing but Explorers and Blazers in a few years. So yeah, catering exclusively towards the yuppie crowd might bring in a few more quick bucks but in the long run I don't think it would be a wise idea (not that I am saying whether or not Ford/Rover realizes this or not). If there cease to be people out there who actually do what most of the consumers wish they had the balls to do then they will turn elsewhere, heritage will get you a long way but it won't work forever. |
James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 08:49 pm: |
|
Hey marketing isn't my forte, yet, it certainly influences on what peolpe buy which also has been hashed out here.
As much as I'm enthralled with LRs, the Germans make some good stuff. Porsche has a pretty cool drivetrain in their deal as does VW. Both of which will have build quality better than LR as of now. Even Jeep will offer a diesel in the near future.
As I said, my crystal ball is cloudy today, yet, I'm pretty good on owning a 10yr old version as the youngest.
Jamie |
Carter Simcoe (Carter)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 09:00 pm: |
|
No, the bad thing is your crystal ball probably isn't cloudy. IMHO, the way things are going FORD will completely give the enthusiasts the cold shoulder in the near future in an ill-planned attempt at raking in a few extra dollars and then everything will start going down hill in the way I explained in my last post. |
Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 09:07 pm: |
|
IMO, the only offering from Germany isn't from Porsche or VW. Those are alot like the new Rangie. They're nice on paper but in the real world there is much to much to go wrong but then I really haven't seen the new VW or Porsche yet. The German Ute to consider is the G-Wagen. Still lots of bells and whistles but down deep it's a real truck.
BTW, Porsche makes great cars but they've also had some lemons that wouldn't ever stand up to the abuse we put our vehicles in. Early Boxster engine problems come to mind. What makes a good sports car won't make a good back country car. Not that Cayennes will see much of any trail. |
Carter Simcoe (Carter)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 09:09 pm: |
|
You obviously have not seen those "Extreeeeeeemmmmeee" action shots of the Cayenne that I posted in the Defender forum  |
Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 09:18 pm: |
|
ROFLMAO... I just took a look. It's funny how all these "Extreeeeemeeee" shots are just one wheel up in the air. I need to rent a Ford Focus and take it out on some dirt roads... er... I mean "EXTREEEMEEE TRAILS" and take some photos. |
GregH
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 09:26 pm: |
|
The route of trying to please everyone is always a compromise and the direction that Ford is going is simply following where BMW engineering/marketing started LR going-where the money is-offering a more on-road pleasing ride and more room with lots of technology to keep some level of offroad(lack)ability.
the Porsche Cayenne and VW Tourag will please this market even more than LR does and will do it with more power (450bhp!) and reliability than LR.
I had hoped Ford would simply help out with purchasing leverage and range and would improve production efficiency but when I saw Wolfgang Reitzle move over from BMW it was obvious that LR was going the same direction-where's the money?
Why not at least bring back the defender 90 and 110 (or a new 100?)as an "image" vehicle to please offroaders and maybe keep some of the 4x4 LR faithful? Offset the losses with $$RR's and lots of exploder-based discoveries and freelanders, etc. as that's where they're going!
The Jeep Liberty is evidence that Jeep isn't immune. |
Carter Simcoe (Carter)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 09:31 pm: |
|
Yeah, but FWIW the Liberty still has a solid axle up front, according to some reports this might not be the case with the next disco. |
Tripp Westbrook (Tripp)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 09:37 pm: |
|
True the Porsche and VW sport utes will probably see very little dirt, but they WILL be offering lockers in all three diffs.
Not even LR is doing that these days. |
GregH
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 09:38 pm: |
|
I like the Gelaendewagen too but MBZ plans to phase out (remember it's still made by Steyr/Daimler/Puch in Austria) and make more vehicles like the M-class. If MBZ would bring over a decontented Gwagen SWB 3door for even $35K-I'd be in line-it aint gonna happen. |
GregH
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 09:43 pm: |
|
Carter-yeah I know-Are you trying to make me depressed?
I'm trying to keep an open mind and not think too badly of the future of the disco-atleast until it's confirmed. |
Gil Stevens (Gil)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 09:44 pm: |
|
the Liberty has IFS "upfront".. not a solid axle. fwiw |
Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 09:49 pm: |
|
Yes, Jeep isn't immune as is evident by the Liberty but they still have the TJ and have even expanded on that by offering the Rubicon. And FWIW, I've been on trails with Liberties and Freelanders and the Liberties have the Freelanders beat hands down. Sad but true. |
Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 09:55 pm: |
|
Gil, I think what Carter means is that it has IFS up front but solid axle in the rear. Plus it has a low range that the Freelander totally lacks. I'm not calling it a better offroader than the Disco2 but it's angles are better. Last time I looked Land Rover didn't even state the aproach/breakover/departure angles on the D2 (unless I missed it) while Jeep still lists them. I wonder who's making real 4x4's? |
Carter Simcoe (Carter)
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 09:56 pm: |
|
yeah, you're right I could have sworn I heard they kept the solid front though. Oh well, I don't keep up with Jeeps very much. |
James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy)
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 01:11 am: |
|
Interesting in what the trippstr mentions as "True the Porsche and VW sport utes will probably see very little dirt, but they WILL be offering lockers in all three diffs.
Not even LR is doing that these days."
Exactly!! The "aura" of the LR having all the stuff that could make it go anywhere is now not there. The other marques are going in that direction. And although Porsche may have put out some not cool "off-road" pics., they have many in the library of rally competition where they have been very successful.
And how many of new LR owners go off-road?? Yeah, still the highest %, yet, still not too high.
Always an interesting discusion. Every time I get into the 109 it always bring home how far LR has "progressed". |
Garth
| | Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 08:42 am: |
|
I've always wondered about the underlying theme that lives within the American Discovery Boards of the Disco being a low sales volume enthusiast's vehicle, but I've never seen sales figures up to now.
Discoverys in Oz sell about 200 per month; on a population basis compared with the USA that's about 3000 per month. Given the lower number of new car sales per head of population in Oz, the comparative figure would be even higher.
Which may account for the sight I saw last year at the Bar Mitzvah of a friend's child we know through a Korean Adoptive network (!), of 5 gentile driven Discoveries parked in a line outside the synagogue.
Garth |
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page