Dangers in filling up the tank

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Author Message   KJ Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 04:57 am:    Maybe y'all knew this, but I know I sure didn't. This morning on GMA they ran a segment about the dangers of static electricity and gassing up your vehicle. They showed sickening film footage of a couple of poor souls who'd been ignited while putting gas in their cars. Seems the static that builds up when we exit the car, or worse, re-enter the car for a credit card or something(brushing up against the interior and creating more of a charge) can create enough spark to transfer to the nozzle we hold to fuel up. This creates a flash of flame and we can be toast. It's important to discharge the static electricity before handling the nozzle. They suggested touching the metal on the vehicle first, but I'd guess it would have to be a steel part? I don't know my metalurgy, but I don't think aluminum would discharge, would it? Some places have metals signs hanging for just that purpose, but I've never noticed them. I'll be looking from now on. Karen   TPH (Snowman) Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 07:48 am:    I've been discharging the static electricity before handling a fuel nozzle for a while now, just a good habit I believe. Also I seem to be a static filled person by nature for some odd reason. Where I gas up there is a BIG sign that warns of this and to turn off your cellphones. My worse grip is the bozo who runs their car/truck while re-fueling or is smoking! I see that all the time here in VT. What is their point? Why take a chance?   mantaray (Mantaray) Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 07:56 am:    Karen - yeah, you need a conductor and Aluminum isn't a good one. i think this is probably one of those news stories that gets blown out of proportion, but then i again, it is a possibility. i never thought about it in my Jeep because i'd get zapped almost everytime i got out in the winter anyway. wearing gloves would help........   John Cinquegrana (Johnc) Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 07:56 am:    Why do you think I take my mother-in-law with me when I go fuel up? I tell her to fill up the car while I run inside to buy lottery tickets. I also make sure she is wearing that synthetic sweater I gave her for her b'day. I live a 1/4 mile from the NJ border and in NJ it's full service, by law you cannot fill up your own car. Probably the only good thing about NJ... Good morning you stickin' NJ boyz   James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy) Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 09:11 am:    Also keep this in mind when filling "Gerry" cans. "Also a rule is that you must ground the can to the vehicle body prior to unsealing the top (to remove any static electric potential, and that the filler neck (which should also be metal) should contact the metal lip of the vehicle tank while transferring gas (for the same reason). Likewise: never fill a gerry can sitting in the bed of a pickup which has a liner. Again static discharge could cause a fire/explosion. Cans should be placed on the ground and the filler nozzle touch the can during the fuel transfer (the flow of gas itself is a cause of static build-up: if the nozzle is not grounded to the can, possibility of a spark - and a big bang!)" from some safety site on the web. Jaime   KJ Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 09:36 am:    Jaime, They did show the proper way to fill can, too, thanks for reminding us. I really wondered if I was the only one who didn't know this, but David told me he'd never heard it, either, and I consider him pretty hip to this sort of thing. Snowman, I've never seen such a sign, but as I said before I'm going to notice from now on. I try to stay tuned in to safety issues of all kinds. In my business taking risks can get you killed, so I, too, have a low tolerance for idjits like your smoking gas pumpers. Karen   James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy) Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 10:39 am:    naw, don't think so Karen. I never really thought about it until I stumbled onto this article. Now I certainly pay attention especially with the "Gerry" cans which usually are mounted on roof rack. Always take them off now to fill. We have a super siphon from EE and it specifically mentions about the lack of a static charge when using it. much easier than lifting the full cans off the roof and am guessing being on a steel rack dissipates the possible static charge when opening. Jaime   muskyman Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 11:59 am:    there is startling evidence that this is connected to plastic fuel tanks and plastic gas cans. underwriter labs in northbrook IL is doing studies now and the scarry thing is they have found so many issues that they have to go back and study it some more. there is a plastic molder in IL that is be sued for millions by a number of parties in regards to this,it should be intresting how it all sorts out turns out that the flow of gas into a insulative container lets a static charge to build up. ever hear a kid go down a LDPE slide in the park? the charge can zap you but good. the current recomondation is to only fill containers while they are sitting on the ground and to have the nozzel in contact with the container at all times. my advise is to throw away your plastic gas cans because for 80years of steel gas cans there was never a problem. there can not be a static charge inside a condutor thats why electronic components are in metal cases.   James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy) Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 12:30 pm:    so Musky, what are your thoughts about using the super siphon to fill the tank from a metal can on a steel rack?? Jaime   Andrew Clarke (Aclarke) Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 12:40 pm:    Why are people saying that aluminium isn't a good conductor? It's much better than steel! They make power lines out of aluminium, for goodness sakes! Am I missing something here?   muskyman Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 12:41 pm:    Jaime, i would guess(might be wrong so dont bet your life on this)that a super siphon does not move enough fuel fast enough to cause the buildup of static electricity to cause a spark. the preliminary report that a attorney friend of mine had from ULlabs said that the super fast pumps at the gas station may have a contributory role in all this? I like you would really like a complete explanation because with all the gas powered toys and tools I have I think about it everytime I fill up. by the way there also has been a rash of personal water craft related fill up incideants and fishing boat incideants lately and plastic tanks are very common place in those areas now where boats all had steel tanks just 10 years ago? thom   James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy) Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 12:54 pm:    yeah, the flow rate isn't all that great with it which sounds like a benefit now! interesting about the plastic tanks as thats what I use for the chainsaws, etc. 2-cycle engine stuff. think I'll switch back to the metal containers. thx for the info. Jaime   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 03:52 pm:    I remember filling up on boats always being a problem. I wonder how many people forget to turn on the blower or letting it run long enough after filling before turning over the engine. Growing up in CT on the sound and having a boat myself I have seen my share of boat fires. It's always been an issue addressed by the USCG and the US Power Squadrons. Just a thought, wouldn't you get grounded when you pick up the nozzle and touch the metal trigger? The handles are generally covered in plastic but the trigger is still bare metal. Isn't that part of the reason you're supposed to place your can on the floor and touch the nozzle to the opening of the can before and while you're filling up? On a related note... one reason I will never buy another American or Japanese car with cloth seats is that I ALWAYS get zapped by them while getting out. I haven't had this happen to me in German cars for some reason.   Jude (Jdonato) Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 04:27 pm:    Hmmm, what Andrew said!!. Aluminum is a very GOOD conductor. Not as good as Platinum, Gold, or Copper but still a very good conductor and heat sink. Look in your 110VAC service outlet, the grounding boss is made out of hmmmm...Aluminum! Ever do something stupid in you vehicle like bridge a broken fuse with aluminum foil, guess what, it conducts electricity very well. Remember your Physics 101 people. Jude.   Kim S (Roverine) Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 04:58 pm:    Hey KJ, I have never heard of this either! I do recall something I saw on a news show recently warning about filling up gas cans, however ignition while pumping fuel into the vehicle's tank never occured to me (well besides the idiots who smoke, run the motors, etc.). Good feedback, and glad this was posted. Kim   E Snyder Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 05:32 pm:    Except, Jude, as far as I know you can't attach a ground strap in your truck to the aluminum parts! There's bound to be someone reading this who understands electricity enough to explain that. Grounding and conducting must be two different things.   Jude (Jdonato) Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 06:16 pm:    Discharging static from your body is a good idea upon exiting a vehicle and filling up with gasoline. The possibility of static iginition is certainly there but the right conditions have to be in place to blow yourself up while doing it...(temp, humidity, concentration of vapors, type of shoes you are wearing, etc.) The modern petroleum and diesel filler spouts are bonded and grounded to earth. When you touch it with your sweaty hand, you are bonded well to earth. GROUNDING: connecting something with a good conductor to something else that is "GROUNDED" to earth. CONDUCTANCE:a materials ability to transfer electricity, ie: rubber, certain plastice, glass, paint not good conductors, while all sorts of metals, metal alloys, including Al, are good conductors. ELECTRICITY: the movement of electrons, negative charge. The exterior of your Rover is usually painted. And it is usually grounded by chassis bolts to the frame/chassis. Static can jump or conduct through the paint although you need enough negative electrons built up in your body. (You are a battery of sorts). You can attach a ground strap from your chassis to any body panel but it probably wouldn't look pretty and it wouldn't do much b/c the body panel is already grounded. A good choice for you people who are worried is to do what Snowman does, discharge upon exiting the vehicle, touch the door striker bolt or the scratched paint on any body panel, you do have scratched paint don,t you? Also what Blueboy and Musky said, it is good practice to bond/ground metal and plastic gerry cans when filling them up or emptying them. Physics and some chemistry at work: when flammable fluid flows with the right conditions, static electricity can be generated. If there are enough flammable vapors and oxygen present when enough heat (static spark) is produced you get ignition. I was in and out of a Ford Taurus yesterday, the driver and I both got shocked EVERY damn time I got out and shut the door. Good subject and advice Karen. Gotta go to a Christmas party. Cheers all. Jude Safety Coordinator for a medical manufacturing co. 73' SIII and 77'MGB owner/operator. Master of nothing.   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 06:27 pm:    "I was in and out of a Ford Taurus yesterday, the driver and I both got shocked EVERY damn time I got out and shut the door." EVERY Ford (and most American cars) I've driven did this and I don't understand why they don't do something about it. Isn't shock therapy a method used to help people quick smoking? Use better material for the seats already and ground the F***ing fabric.   muskyman Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 06:40 pm:    ford wants to shock you outa a taurus and into a leather clad LR   KJ Posted on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 11:21 pm:    I remember a close-up of the spark created going from the finger of the person to the metal nozzle. They showed this several times. Something else that was stressed was that if you have a flame, do NOT take the nozzle out of the car-fill. Leave it in and extinguish while it remains in the fill tube. Pulling it out creates a huge inferno and toasts anyone in the area, to include any passengers in your vehicle. The flame stays very small when the nozzle is left in place. Though this is a rare event, we are all subject to this risk on a regular basis. If it happens to you it becomes 100% in your case. Having lived through more than one "very rare" illness I can tell you for sure that sometimes shit happens. Prevent what you can because once in a while your number comes up on the Crap Slinger o' life. Karen   Snowman Posted on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 - 07:47 am:    "Crap Slinger O' Life". That I've never heard before, geezum I am sheltered! The "Crap Slinger" part does bring into the mind a visual presence I think I will try to forget though. But of course the first time I heard "Shits and Giggles" I pondered that a while and it drove me nuts for a week. I definately have to write these down for my kids as I am getting old and might forget them. By the way it was -10 on my porch this morning! Yeeks! I believe I'll let the sun hit Rover a while before I try to wake it's tired block. What was the weather in everyone else's "Neck Of The Woods"?   KJ Posted on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 - 10:56 am:    LOL! Snowie, I just made that up as I typed. I blame the Nyquil and sleep deprivation. The Crap Slinger O' Life has been working overtime at this acreage in the past couple of weeks, and my bod is finally crashing. Doesn't change spit, I still have to DO everything, dayum. Marra fack, I'm out the door right now to buy some meds for yet another one of my hooved charges. At least this one is a minor thing, but beware of flying CRAP, that's my best holiday advice! LOL! Weather here is too cold, whatever the temp. Give me 83 and sunny, please..... Karen, still standing, though delusional   Old School Posted on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 - 12:06 pm:    Another reason to fill up good old fashioned diesel.   Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Posted on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 - 01:53 pm:    In the facility where I am the EH&S Manager, we regularly have fires due to the bonding/grounding straps being broken and the operators not caring enough to make an issue out of it. NFPA and EPA/OSHA regulations all require some form of bonding anytime a flammable liquid is being transferred from one container to another. One is not required to have the containers grounded, merely bonded together. When we conduct bulk transfers, the containers (375 gallons of fire!), the semi (5,000 gallons of fire), and the person doing the filling are all grounded through the use of multiple ground wires all running to the same grounding point-never had a fire while transferring, always in the paint room. Aluminium is a fine conductor for this application, however, Al is not spark proof like some of the aluminium/bronze alloys. We use some incredibly scary chemicals in our daily lives and never consider the dangers of them. Fortunately, in this case, we rarely ever encounter situations where the concentrations of these vapors exceeds the lower flammability level. FWIW-when I worked in the electric utility field, the coal was considered to have a greater risk of fire than the four million (in best Dr. Evil voice) gallons of diesel fuel at the plants. Paul   Rans (Rans) Posted on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 - 03:11 pm:    I'm a little confused by one factor in all of this....isn't your truck insulated from being grounded by those big ass rubber tires? Rubber is a lousy conductor as I remember from physics 101. I know I am going to learn something here cuz there are some knowledgablee folks on this subject here!   Jude (Jdonato) Posted on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 - 05:36 pm:    Yes indeed Rans, the truck is insulated by the 33's. The static is built up in the vehicle, once you step out of the vehicle and touch the exterior of the vehicle, you become the "grounding" connector to earth. In that instant, the connection causes the spark. Even though you may have rubber soles on your shoes, its not enough insulation. Although a poor conductor your Nike's may not have enough "resistivity" to earth. The poor souls who get burned up had all the right physics/chemistry going when ingnition occured. My heart goes out to them and their families because the incident could have been avoided. The people who smoke and fuel up at the same time simply don't have the correct fuel/air ratio. Be safe now, ya hear! Jude.   Paul Long Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 08:39 am:    Rans, The static charge is built up from air moving over the vehicle if it is on the ground or not. The vehicle becomes electrically charged and will dissipate this voltage to become the same as the earth when a connection is made. Air moving over a stationary object can also cause voltage build ups. Sensors that measure this are used around the Shuttle launch sites to measure "fields mils" or the potential of causing a lightnig strike to the craft if launched. Aircraft have static wicks that hang off the trailing edges of wings to disipate the voltage build up into the air. Fuelers also have a static strap to connect to aircraft BEFORE touching the nozzel to the aircraft. Always wondered why this was not done on vehicles as well. Lower flash point fuels and less static charge decreases the possibility, but it is still possible under the right conditions. Maybe if enough people are toasted fuel nozzels will have grounding straps, a simple stainless cable to connect to the container being dispensed into. If bonding any aluminum parts, also use some type of anti oxidant (grease made for this purpose) due to most connectors or wires being a differant material than the aluminum. This will corrode quickly at the point of contact and may not make an electrical connection in time.   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 09:50 am:    any one see zoolander ?? GASOLINE FIGHT!!!   Rans (Rans) Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 10:04 am:    So the static charge is in the ungrounded truck, and not the person stepping from the truck? So if the person is touching the truck and the ground when they get out, the static should discharge? If they aren't touching the truck when getting out then the first grounding would take place when the now grounded person opens the fuel cap? I'm still confused.....where does the fuel nozzle come into play?   Paul Long Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 11:18 pm:    Vehicle moving through air has a different potential than earth is another way of saying "static build up". The nozzle is the end of the "ground" connection that is touched to the vehicle fuel filler neck. (a very good ground both from fluid underground and a pump electrically bonded to a ground rod) If a wire connected to the nozzle is connected to the vehicle first, (away from fuel vapors at filler neck) this equalizing of electrons trying to become the same potential as earth would take place away from the vapors of the filler neck. There is always a slight balancing of electrons when touching ground after moving through the air. Usually this is not enough to create a spark. With a tether cord connected to containers while filling, this minute electrical flow simply flows harmlessly through the solid connection keeping the electrical potential balanced. The problem occurs when the discharge is allowed to jump an air gap from the nozzle (the ground lead) to the charged container. (vehicle) Remember electric flows from negative to positive.