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Zak Ruck (Zak)

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 07:51 am:

These things have adds all over most Handgun and riffle mags, and they look pretty indestructible and have very impressive output for such a small light. I'm hoping ot be getting one as a stocking stuffer this Christmas.

Check them out

www.surefire.com

charles pastrano (Charles)

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 08:07 am:

Thats funny you post this. I am looking for a good flashlight. My flashlight grew legs and walked away on my last fishing trip. I was looking at this.
http://www.all-maglite-4-less.com/detail_mag_recharge.html

Charles

Greg P. (Gparrish)

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 09:52 am:

Don't waste your money on the little brinkman lights. I bought the one that looks like a smaller version of a mag light, but with rubber grip stripes, etc. It bragged about being much brighter with kripton bulb and lithium batteries. Well, it is bright. it is about the size of 3 AA batteries end to end and puts out as much or more light than my 3 D Cell Mag light. The part they don't brag about is the cost of replacing the batteries. It uses 2 CRV photo cell batteries. Ouch.

gp

Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d)

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 10:11 am:

There are some pretty cool LED lights out there now - they last for hundreds of hours, and some of the high-tech ones retain the full brightness until the very end. And you never have to worry about the bulb blowing either.

dean

John Lee

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 11:39 am:

Zak Ruck (Zak)

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 11:41 am:

My wifes 92FS has an optional light rail and I'll be buying one then for it, but was also thinking of putting one in the rover instead of the mag. The only that I like better about the mag is that I can beat the shit out of those Nazi's that are pouring acid and putting bumperstickers all overour rovers.

Hey, you get waht you pay for. I have not problem pay more for quality, and that is what I like.

Thanks John, some very nice pic's as well!

John Lee

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 11:52 am:

Zak,

SureFire makes three different WeaponLights for yoru wife's 92FS:

(1) Military (SureFire part no. W001)
(2) Nitrolon (SureFire part no. P001)
(3) Millenium (Surefire part no. M001)

These units are nice because you don't have to attach the WeaponLights via the trigger guard, as you must with other weapons without the integral mounting rail.

Zak Ruck (Zak)

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 12:09 pm:

I'm use to using some of the old cigar techniques for holding my old lights on my 1911, but I'm getting quite bored with it and will be selling/trading it in. Not sure for what yet.

But she lovers her 92, and is an excellent shot as well. Haven't been to the range in a while since she's pregnant, and it will be tough to go as a couple after the little on arrives. Not sure how I'd feel about bring a newborn to a range. Although that new ParaOrdnance custom carry would fit nicely into his diaper!!!

Eric Ratermann (Ericrat)

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 12:16 pm:

You need the maglight and the Surefire.

The Surefire is to blind and daze them while you are beating them with the mag, which is what they are best for.

Seriously, I have a single cell lithium Surefire that is as bright as the 3 cell mag.

I also have an m3 millenium and it simply spectacular.

Eric

Blue (Bluegill)

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 12:26 pm:

I use Surefire. When night shooting, or for home defense, the Surefire is the only flashlight to use. People who are "in the know" will truly know why the traditional Maglite can't be used.

Rob Davison (Pokerob)

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 12:37 pm:

i am looking at all the models on surefire.com and i cant decide what is a good one for me.

i need at least the same brightness as my maglite 3 cell. if this can be acheived in a reduced size light thats fine.

can i leave it in the car for months and not have to tend to these batteries? they look special.

also i am in favor of the LED style as my headlamp lite kicks ass. it is unlikely it will be fitted to a gun but i dont object to having that option.

if it looks bad ass i wont complain either.

any reccomendations?

rob

John Lee

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 12:37 pm:

I have dual 6D Mag-Lites in my truck next to the driver and passenger seats, but they're there only because they're stealth batons, i.e., they're carried as weapons but they look like innocent flashlights. For actual lighting use, I use my SureFire 6P and 3P, both outdated. I'll soon be replacing my 6P with a SureFire Z2.

Rob Davison (Pokerob)

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 12:50 pm:

i seem to be leaning toward the C3-ha. i appreciate the fact that i can accessorize the flashlight.

accessories for my accessories....

i do feel a bit uncomfortable about the 1 hour running time... i'd like to see a big flash light with lower light and 3 hour battery.

damn, the 9AN fits the bill... i'll have to do a cost comparison of those batteries vs the price though

Zak Ruck (Zak)

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 12:55 pm:

For that long of a light, I'd look at keeping a small lantern in the rover. We have one that uses compact flourescent (SP???) bulbs and will run for up to 4 hours.

The surefires are great in that your can beat the snot out of them, and they will still blind someone if you need to. I'll be adding one to my Remington 870 12ga soon as well. I would have rather bought a Wilson Combat Scattergun, but way to expansive for me. Not that is a home defense weapon. 8+1 round 12ga. First two rounds are "less than lethal", followed by the good stuff.

James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy)

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 12:56 pm:

what about this one:

"The E2e Outdoorsman was designed for outdoor enthusiasts requiring a long-running, high performance hand-held light. The E2e Outdoorsman produces 25 lumens of light output for 2.5 hours. The Outdoorsman has all the features of the E2e Executive Elite plus a longer pocket clip. Hard Anodized."

Blue (Bluegill)

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 12:56 pm:

No special considerations Rob - except for maybe one: I have the plain jane 6P and it has the quick on/off button on the end, but you can also screw in the end cap which will keep the light on. Once I stored the light with the cap screwed almost down far enough to be in the on position and it ended up coming on an killing the batteries. But in looking at the website, it looks like they have all sorts of gizmos, including special endcaps. Damn, they actually have all sorts of stuff now. I got mine back in about '95 when you could have any Surefire you wanted, as long as it was a black 6P. I may have to revise my Christmas list...

If you want to explore a cave all day, use a big old Maglite. If you want to be secure in your chosen resting place for the night, have a Surefire & HK handy.

Blue (Bluegill)

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 12:59 pm:

"less than lethal"

what's the point?

I like to pick up chicks at the bar and have "less than sex"

John Lee

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 01:01 pm:

Rob,

I think the C2 and Z2 have the most utility for general-purpose use.

Here's a pic of the Z2:

http://www.surefire.com/surefire/content/z2_large.jpg

The Z2 features a rubber ring around the main shaft. If you're into guns, you can use this ring with the cigar hold that Zak mentioned. Or, if you fire from the Weaver stance, you can still use the Z2 with the Harries technique. Even if you're not into guns, the rubber ring prevents the light from slipping in your hand.

Here's a pic of the C2:

http://www.surefire.com/surefire/content/c2black_large.jpg

The C2 is like the Z2 in that it has a rubber ring for non-slipping and for use with the cigar hold, but it also has a pocket/belt clip. This may be a better choice over the Z2 if you're not into guns as the pocket clip may have more utility for you than the concentric, grab-anywhere design of the Z2.

I think the Z2 and C2 have much greater utility than the older 6P (http://www.surefire.com/surefire/content/6pbk_large.jpg) and D2 Defender (6P with a pocket clip) models. The rubber rings on the C2 and Z2 models make them much more non-slip in the hand. The overall shapes of the Z2 and C2 units also make them less likely to slip in your hand than the 6P and D2 models.

All of these models come stock with the P60 lamp assembly, which produces 65 lumens for 60 minutes. 65 lumens is substantially brighter than the light produced by a 6D Mag-Lite. It's fucking bright. Furthermore, the light pattern is concentric and uniform without bright or dark spots. If you want, you can upgrade to the P61 lamp assemblies, which will produce 120 lumens, but only for 20 minutes.

If you're not going to carry the lights on your person, the C2 and Z2 units are available in 9V models called the C2 and Z3. These 9V units come stock with P90 lamp assemblies, which produce 105 lumens for 60 minutes. If you want, you can upgrade to the P91 lamp assembly, which produces 200 lumens for 20 minutes.

Frankly, I would stick with the standard lamp assemblies.

John Lee

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 01:08 pm:

Less than lethal, Zak? I agree with Blue. If you're justified in shooting at all, you are justified in killing. All three of my Super 90's are loaded with Federal Tactical 000 Buckshot. Two of the Super 90's have butt cuffs fitted with three rounds of 000 Buck and three rounds of Brenneke slugs. I use the Brenneke's because of the white hulls; they're easy to differentiate from the red-hulled buckshot loads.

Zak Ruck (Zak)

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 01:09 pm:

So John, when will EE be selling these!

The less than lethal just makes whomever I find in my house think a bit more about what they are doing, and know that I could have just put an 8" hole in the center their chest. I'm glad I have not had to use it yet.

Rob Davison (Pokerob)

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 01:11 pm:

ok blue, that would be a fine example, caving... in which case i take a 6v dry cell water proof walmart
special, mini mag light and a dozen glow sticks.

i have my primus lantern, which is indispensable, this thing can produce serious light for hours on a full canister. and it's sizes makes it delicious for all activities. i recommend it wholly...

http://www.primus.se/konsument/as_yellows_e.htm

scroll down to see the lantern

i'll have to look into the E2e i naturally migrated to the largest lights, when maybe a little one would be
good.

John Lee

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 01:12 pm:

If we ever sell the SureFire's, you'll see them on our website.

Zak Ruck (Zak)

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 01:22 pm:

I know all about the Brenneke's. That was my slug us choice when I use to hunt with my Ithica model 72 (i think that was the model) "deerslayer" pump slug gun.

Three Super 90's, wow. I may not agree with you about some things, but you certainly have very good taste in firearms. I'm really looking foward to rebuilding my collection. I'm looking now at getting a nice Colt Hbar, or maybe the new Tikka varmit.

Blue (Bluegill)

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 01:24 pm:

Moral considerations aside, Zak, less than lethal is a bad idea for a lot of reasons. If you shoot a bad guy with dummy ammo, he is not going to stop and think, "This guy I'm robbing is alllllllllright...he was nice enough to shoot me softly." He's going to think, "Now I'm pissed, and now he's dead." Meanwhile you've still got another round of pillows to get off before you get to the real ammo. Another consideration is the fact that this asshole's back-of-the-yellow pages lawyer will sue you successfully because you attacked his client, the hapless victim. Dead bad guys don't sue. Just my opinion.

Zak Ruck (Zak)

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 01:31 pm:

Very true, very true. The new non lethal stuff is still very potent. Check out www.deltaforce.com for their lineup of shots. With how small my house is, when I hit a guy standing in my doorway it will most likely break a large amount of rib, most likely his sternum and puncture at least one rib. I'll have to look at taking those two out and using only the nice 000.

P.S., I use to comp. shoot in speed rounds at 100yds with an old 1903 springfield which is bolt action, and I'm a lefty. So I know I can get the first two rounds out of the 870 quite fast if i need to get to the good stuff. But your logic is very solid. I also like the different colored shells.

So many good ideas come from this site. What an amazing place.

John Lee

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 01:46 pm:

In addition to the white color of the Brenneke slugs, another thing I like about the Brenneke's is that they seem to be the most accurate slugs in all of my Super 90's. They're substantially more accurate than the Foster-type slugs from Winchester, Remington, and Federal.

The Breneneke's also penetrate better than the Foster-type slugs. The Foster slugs are pure lead. According to Martin Fackler, the Foster-type slugs expand to over 1" in diameter in soft tissue like so: http://www.steyrscout.org/12gars.jpg

I actually prefer the deeper penetration of the harder, high-antimony Brenneke slugs. I have slugs with my shotguns just in case I need to reach out beyond the effective range of buckshot, but also because I may need to shoot someone behind some light cover. In such a scenario, I want a deeply penetrating slug like the Brenneke. Most people seem to prefer low-penetration rounds, but I actually prefer high-penetration rounds. That gives me the option of shooting through doors, walls, automobiles, and other types of light cover.

Rob Davison (Pokerob)

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 01:58 pm:

http://www.sinterfire.com/

is there a downside two using frangible ammunition?

rd

Zak Ruck (Zak)

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 02:00 pm:

I will definatly agree with you there John. For up to 100+ yards with a nice tacticle scope, it's really had to beat a 12ga slug. I found the Brenneke's to be the most accurate out of both my 870 and my old ithica. I can usually put a nice 4-5" group at 100yds.

What you really need for high-penetration is a 50BMG. I've witnessed what they can do first hand. At 500yds, the 750grain bullet had enough energy to go through an old cast iron chevy engine block. And the grouping at 1000yds was amazing. Just wich ammo wasn't so expansive or I might have to take up long range shooting again.

Zak Ruck (Zak)

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 02:06 pm:

There is a very large debate about frangigle/fragmentible ammunition right now. The main theory of frangible ammo is to creat a larger area of contact and cause as much bleeding as possible. the downside is that it's penetration is very poor. If the round just "explodes" on the persons thick jacket, well your screwed. I'd stay with the good ole hollow points. I know the frag ammo is very useful on airplanes etc where one does not want excessive penetration.

This argument is a lot like the Subsonic vs. +P ammo.

I'm sure John will know more than I.

Zak Ruck (Zak)

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 02:18 pm:

Now this is a nice combo.

0

Blue (Bluegill)

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 02:28 pm:

I load my mags with 3 to 5 180 gr. jacketed hollowpoints or 3 to 5 180 gr. supreme hollowpoints, and follow them up with 8 to 10 good old 180 gr. full metal jackets. Kind of the reverse of Zak's logic...

Bill Bettridge (Billb)

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 02:35 pm:

John/Zak

I'm sure you've already tried 'em, but if not try some Remington Copper solids. They are a saboted round with a machined copper slug. I'm not really a fan of saboted rounds with cast lead slugs, but the Rem coppers are amazingly accurate in an 870 with a 16" rifled bbl. - 50 yds - 3/4" to 1 1/2" and 100 yds only spreads to about 3" on a bad day. Not too shabby for a slug gun.

Not great for home defense mind you, because very little stops the solid base of the round after it loses the "fingers" on top.

Bill

Zak Ruck (Zak)

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 02:40 pm:

In my handguns, I have different clips loaded with two types of ammo. Two have Federal 124 gr. JHP and the other two have American Eagle (a Federal company) 124gr FMJ.

These are for my 1911 in 9mm and my wifes 92fs in 9mm. I'll be selling my 1911 and getting a new handgun. Not sure what yet. Maybe a nice Sig in 357sig, or a Kimber 1911 in 45acp. Or a nice 969, my personal favorite.

the Big Daddy

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 02:45 pm:

Hey Bill, how's the new little guy ? Congratulations !

Zak , check out the stinger and ultra stinger from streamlight

Blue, same tactic only with the 230 SXT's out of a G 30

John Lee

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 05:31 pm:

Rob, those very frangile bullets like on that link you posted have their uses, but for general use I think they are a bit of a joke. They're probably most useful for air marshals who don't want to blow a hole through the side of a plane and for training around steel targets to minimize the the hazards of bullet splatter. There are also specialized "breeching rounds" that entry teams use when they "stack" in front of a door and the lead guy blows the hinges or door knob off the door with a shotgun loaded with sintered-metal slugs. These slugs stay together long enough to pulverize the door's hinges or door knob but present less hazard to the occupants inside (who may not all be bad guys). I'm not even sure these tactics are used any longer, and I believe most entry teams now use the safer, faster, and more reliable battering ram like so:

http://www.expeditionexchange.com/hk/swat94cover.jpg

But as Zak pointed out, those sintered metal rounds are very frangible and basically break apart with any impact. I much prefer rounds that penetrate more reliably. If someone is shooting at you, he has his arms in front of his vital organs and you may have to penetrate his arms before you hit his vitals. You may have to penetrate thick clothing or a leather belt. The guy may be taking cover behind a corner of a wall or behind a car door. I guess it all depends on your application. The sintered rounds may suit the air marshal but they would be a joke to the FBI. Fully half of the FBI's shootings involve automobiles (presumably because they deal with so many bank robberies), so they need something that penetrates more deeply and reliably.

Zak, for .50 shooting, you might want to add an M2 to your Rover like so:

http://www.expeditionexchange.com/action/6/apit.jpg

Bill, I've always wanted to try those Remington copper slugs. I love the Barnes X bullets in my rifles, and I think the same idea in a slug is a very good one. I would think that the copper slugs would be very accurate because of the lack of concentricity problems associated with jackets and cores, and the terminal ballistics on that slug are probably superb as the tip would expand reliably but the projectile would never disintegrate because of its solid copper shank. But all of my Super 90's are smoothbores. One of my Super 90's is a Field model that I use for clay target use. The other two are Tactical models for home/shop protection. If they were fitted with rifled bores, the patterns they produced would be unacceptable.

Zak Ruck (Zak)

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 06:16 pm:

I'd love to have an M2 John. Maybe if i had my class III permit, and I'd pick up a nice H&K MP7

Have you ever read the book about Carlos Hathcock and what he did with an old M2 and an old scope. Cant remember which model, but he was able to record three confirmed hits at over 2500yds with that setup. Very impressive.

John Lee

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 06:27 pm:

Yeah, the book is Marine Sniper by Charles Henderson. It's a good read. I think the telescope Hathcock's unit armorer fitted to the M2 for that famous shot was a 8X or 10X Unertl. I can't remember the exact story, but I think Hathcock thought he shot high the moment he triggered the shot. But it took so long for the projectile to reach the target that the guy stood up while the projectile was on its way, and he rose right into the path of the bullet.

There's purportedly some confirmed 2,500 meter kill in Afghanistan by a Canadian sniper using a .50 sniper rifle. I'm sure the news is floating around on the web if you're especially interested.

Zak Ruck (Zak)

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 06:39 pm:

Carlos as shot a soldier carring arms on a bike at 2500yds. He hit the bike first, actually he hit the from rim causing the man to go flying off, then put a shot in his chest when he stood up. He had hoped the guy would run away from the arms he was transporting, but he picked up an AK ,starting shooting randomly and Carlos' superior told him to take the man out.

How did you like the story about the Vietnamese sniper that was hunting outside of the marines camp?

John Lee

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 06:52 pm:

Is that the one where Hathcock and the Vietnamese sniper are basically hunting each other down, Hathcock can't see the sniper but he sees a glint, shoots at the glint, and the shot goes through the Vietnamese sniper's telescope and then into the sniper's eye socket?

Zak Ruck (Zak)

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 09:23 pm:

Yup. Amazing stories. Don't care to read about the parts where she tortures the american GI's though. That was rough.

GregH

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 09:43 pm:

Anyone know if Surefire makes a weapon light for SIG P228 and S&W 686Plus?

GregH

GregH

Posted on Thursday, December 19, 2002 - 09:54 pm:

Never mind-I found the P228 on the list on their website.

Blue (Bluegill)

Posted on Friday, December 20, 2002 - 10:45 am:

is this that Hathcock dude's wallet?

bad mother fucker

John Lee

Posted on Friday, December 20, 2002 - 11:02 am:

You crack me up Blue.

I know what his wallet looked like, but here's a pic of the man:

http://www.marinescoutsniper.com/Hathcock.jpg

Leslie N. Bright (Leslie)

Posted on Friday, December 20, 2002 - 11:17 am:

Damn. Me being busy at work the past couple of days, I've missed all of the good topics.

Once upon a time: 0311, USMC rifleman.

Even re-qualified on Hathcock range, back in ~'93.

Rob,
Hadn't heard of those, but Glazer Safety Slugs have been around for years, really neat round.

My mags, 13 rounds of 185gr .45-JHP gold-dots...

-L

Rob Davison (Pokerob)

Posted on Friday, December 20, 2002 - 12:31 pm:

interesting perspective on the powdermetal bullets. that company is some what local, few hours north of pittsburgh.

what they seemed to sell me with was less wear on your gun and more accurate shots, plus not all that lead lying around.

rd

Blue (Bluegill)

Posted on Friday, December 20, 2002 - 02:32 pm:

but I clean up that lead contaminated dirt Rob. So go out and shoot shoot shoot, then call the local dept of environmental quality and tell them your baby is acting funny after eating dirt on the shooting range and you'd like to know who your attorney should contact.

Rob Davison (Pokerob)

Posted on Friday, December 20, 2002 - 04:42 pm:

superfunds,,, mmmm

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