CB or VHF Radio

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Author Message   Carl_kps Posted on Tuesday, December 31, 2002 - 11:21 pm:    Which one do most people use when offroading? What do you use more, VHF or CB radio while offroading?   Derek Reed (Dmr) Posted on Tuesday, December 31, 2002 - 11:51 pm:    I would guess that CB is buy far the most common frequency range used by the average offroader. Probably followed closely by FRS (0.5 Watt UHF). I think the best solution would be that you and your buddies all get Tech class HAM licenses and you can use VHF/UHF with higher power and quality radios. The audio difference between CB or FRS and a good mobile 2 meter unit is night and day. The technician HAM test is really easy if you already know basic electronics theory. All you will have to learn is some FCC regs. and memorize the frequecy ranges of the various HAM bands. These is also something called MURS (multi-use radio service?) that uses business VHF bands and a few new frequecies. There is no license required and I think you are limited to 2 watts. You also are only allowed to use FCC approved MURS radios which are fairly expensive compared to similar HAM VHF radios. I have used MURS in San Diego and you will rarely hear anyone else on these frequencies, unless you are driving by a mall or other dense business area. Some organized runs may require you carry a CB. If you don't do these types of runs it isn't an issue.   Curtis N (Curtis) Posted on Wednesday, January 01, 2003 - 12:43 am:    Kinda like Dereak was saying, I use a permanently mounted dual band HAM (70cm/2M). I also have a CB that I velcro/mag-mount in when on group rides. I also carry a couple of FRS radios. This pretty much covers all the bases. CB's are usually required on organized group runs, but it is iffy if people have them (or have them working) on impromptu runs. This leaves the FRS. A lot of wheelers carry these. Usually in about a 2:1 ratio. This is perfect because the ones who carry them usually have two. The dual band HAM option is the best to have if safety is a concern. In most challenging situations I travel in there is no cell/digital option and CB/FRS/GMRS/MURS are nearly worthless due to limited range and lack of an organized network. However, from a good 2M/70cm radio I can hit a repeater from almost anywhere and get emergency support quickly. The only thing better might be a SAT phone, but with HAM you do not have the monthly fee Good Luck, Curtis KD7MMK   Carl_kps Posted on Wednesday, January 01, 2003 - 08:46 am:    I sail on cargo ships so I already have a FCC radio license. I was just want to see what most people use on land. I know at sea VHF is used for comms within 30 miles. I just want to get the radio most people have offroading, not the best system.   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Wednesday, January 01, 2003 - 11:06 am:    Carl... what you're licensed for on Marine VHF won't help you on land. MURS is close to Marine VHF but you're limited in power as Derek said. Another option is GMRS that operates in the UHF range that can use up to 50watts and talk to repeaters while still able to talk to FRS radio users. So it has lots of flexibility. There is a license to get but no test is needed and you can get the license online and be up and running in a day. The GMRS radios can in most cases also use the 70cm HAM bands but you can't use a HAM radio on GMRS. But unfortunatly as already stated most people use the AM CB. But more and more people are moving to FRS so GMRS gives you the ability to talk to the FRS users out there on a better, clearer radio and gives you MUCH better range than FRS. Think of CB to GMRS/MURS/HAM like AM radio vs. FM radio. Then make the call as to what you really want to listen to. On most trail ride I've been going on I would say 40% of people have CB's and about the same number have FRS while many of the CBers also have FRS so we use the FRS and I'll chat with my GMRS to them. A couple of people have since also made the move to GMRS. MURS is great too but as already said there is very little traffic on MURS because it's such a new service. More MURS traffic is actually on the old business channels that now fall under MURS. So you get business users mad at you thinking they have rights to that channel. But it's fun to drive up to a Taco Bell and put in your order on the MURS radio   BW Posted on Wednesday, January 01, 2003 - 12:06 pm:    Carl, Get a CB. It is the most common type found in the 4X4 community. Quality and range sucks, but reliable. BW   scott Posted on Wednesday, January 01, 2003 - 01:56 pm:    For the organized runs (where there's some commercial aspect) you have to run CB, since HAM isn't allowed for commercial use. I think FRS may be the same situation, just that it's unlicensed. I've got a hand held CB, but have used FRS for my recent runs. I'll be getting my HAM tech license in a couple weeks, and one of the groups I've been out with used HAM (and doubled with FRS when they were with me). I got a Yeasu VX-5R for Christmas and it's tri-bank 4.5 - 5 watts, with scanner type capability for everything from 500kHz to 1GHz. It's pretty cool and really small. About 1/3rd the size of my CB that takes 12 AA batteries!!! I agree that with cheap CB's and really cheap FRS, you might as well go for all three if you alread have the HAM license (or plan to get it). That way you have alternatives when the rest of teh group doesn't have HAM. Scott   Peter Bullock (Downunderdisco) Posted on Wednesday, January 01, 2003 - 01:59 pm:    When you guys say CB, what do you mean? Mostly here we have UHF for convoys and stuff. Range of about 4-7kms. Either that or long wave for talking anyone in the damn world provided you have the right crystals in. Especially good for calling out the flying doctor.   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Wednesday, January 01, 2003 - 03:29 pm:    CB in the US is 27mhz AM. GMRS and FRS is similar to the Australian UHF CB. It's 467/467mhz with FRS limited to 1/2watt and GMRS limited to 50 watts. As for the comment about commercial use. FRS has no limits for commercial use. It's a Family Radio Service but I think the rules for CB also apply to FRS as far as use goes. GMRS is also a family service but only as far as the license goes. You can still use it for "commercial" use provided each person has theier own license since you can't get a license that covers the "business". The one exception is if it's a famliy business then every one in the family is covered under your license. This happens often with family run farms or ranches where the whole family uses GMRS on the farm. Just because the most common types of radios used on the trail is CB doesn't mean that's the radio to get. FRS from what I've seen in the last two years is as common these days and GMRS can still talk to FRS. After all, Jeeps are the most common vehicles I see on the trail but we all here use Land Rovers (for the most part). Scott, I'm not sure about your comment on HAM and going all three. Are you saying to program your radio for all three services? While it can be done with some HAM radios or even commercial radios using your HAM radio that's not Part 95 certified on FRS is a quick way to have the FCC take the license away and not to mention the fine. However if your HAM radio is a commercial unit you should be okay under the GMRS service that can also talk to FRS as well as HAM. But the Yeasu VX-5R is not one of the commercial radios like the Vertex line from Yeasu is. I don't know if that's what you were talking about but I just wanted to be sure others here were clear on that.   Carl_kps Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 08:31 am:    I am GMDSS certificed. This basicly means I can use VHF Band up to IMARST systems. Basicly I am already licensed to use VHF, HAMM and INMARSAT systems. I just want to find something that most people use for everyday stuff. If I was going to do cross country expeditions I would go with a Sat phone, (which is alot better that HAM radios). In the middle of the ocean I was able to call my parents for 1 dollar a minute. With the Ham radio you have to hope someone has a Ham and get a relay and all of the crap. I am just trying to see which radio most people us. I am also looking to only spend about 200 dollars for the system.   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 08:49 am:    Carl, Interesting. I've never heard of GMDSS. I couldn't find much information on the FCC site other than how to get it and that it's a Global Marine Distress and Safety System which leads me to think this is a Marine only service much like Marine VHF. But as I sais I don't know much about this service. If the rules are similar to Marine VHF you can't operate under it's license on land. However in an emergency almost ANY radio can be used by the operator to get help. The emergency must have someones life at risk so a breakdown in the middle of nowhere would not be considered an emergency. What are the exact frequencies that you're allowed to operaterate under? And what are the radio type certifications that you can operate under? If you want vehicle to vehicle radio communication then either CB/FRS/or GMRS. The first two would be well under the $200 budget you have. GMRS might be a little bit more but you'll also have the ability to talk to FRS and use repeaters to extend your range up to and over 50 miles. MURS would be a great option due to its properties but very few people use it.   Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 12:37 pm:    a pretty kick ass 2 meter radio is a hell of a lot better deal than a crappy FRS radio. i'd say that's where the value is.   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 12:41 pm:    True Jack but I have yet to find anyone on the trail runs I've been on with a 2m radio. But there are plenty of CB and FRS radios and that's the beauty of GMRS, you can at least talk to the people with FRS and if you have a HAM ticket most GMRS radios can be programed to the 70cm band. But you can't use HAM radios on a part 95 service such as GMRS.   Larry Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 01:13 pm:    What is FRS radio? Is that the hand held walkie talkies?   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 01:19 pm:    Technically no... Walkie talkies are not hand held but they are the little hand held radios that you see all over the place from Motorola (Talkabout) and Cobra along with other brands. They're sold everywhere from sporting good stores, home centers and electronic stores. They operate on the 462 and 467 mhz frequencies and they don't communicate as far as the makers claim that they do. The small size tends to make them sound poor due to the small speaker but they work much better as a hand held radio than CB due to the frequency and because they're operated using FM and not AM like CB. Walkie talkies were backpack radios commonly used in WWII and Handie Talkies were the hand held radios.   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 01:43 pm:    PRC-77...... J/K!!! -L   Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 05:21 pm:    yesterday, we had three trucks with both CB and FRS radios. little speakers on the handhelds don't come close to even cheapest CB set, you have to ask others to repeat more often than not. But - they are really handy when someone's on foot, spotting or scouting the trail. Distance-wise, 462/7 MHs radio is just a hair beyond line of sight, so if there's a hill or ridge between you and your party, you will likely be hosed. The same applies to anything beyond ~30MHz, even CBs start to flake out in the canyons. And there are really very few 2m repeaters - unless there's a dedicated rig perched on top of the hill. On the flat ground, it is hard to beat SSB-capable CB with a good antenna, in combination of price and performance. 12W PEP is quite a bit, and receivers tend to be selective and quiet. peter   scott Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 06:38 pm:    Al, Sorry for the confusion. I was just suggesting that if you already have a HAM license and handheld unit, why not get FRS and CB units in addition, so you aren't limited to one type. The Yeasu handheld that I have only broadcasts on 3 HAM bands (50/144/430 MHz), no FRS, etc. It can receive on most everything from 500kHz to 1GHz, though, so it's been interesting to play with as a scanner (I don't have my HAM license yet, so all I can do right now is listen). Scott   scott Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 06:50 pm:    Al, Here's the receive/transmit frequencies on the VX-5R unit I have: Frequency Range RX: 0.5 - 1.8 MHz (BC Band) 1.8 - 16 MHz (SW Band) 48 - 59 MHz (50 MHz HAM) 59 - 108 MHz (FM) 108 - 137 MHz (Air Band) 137 - 174 MHz (144 MHz HAM) 174 - 222 MHz (VHF-TV) 222 - 420 MHz (ACT1: Action Band 1) 420 - 470 MHz (430 MHz HAM) 470 - 729 MHz (UHF-TV) 800 - 999 MHz (ACT2: Action Band 2 Cellular Blocked) Frequency Range TX: 50 - 54 MHz 144 - 148 MHz 430 - 450 MHz I should be able to listen to FRS, but not broadcast. Carl- so did you get an answer to your original question or not? I'd tend to think most people are using CB or FRS in the U.S., but HAM makes a nice alternative if your group all uses it, since you can get better range, use repeaters, and potentially link to the telephone system to make phone calls. Scott   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 07:22 pm:    Peter- I understand the limitations of FRS but that's why I suggesting GMRS. I get consistantly farther range on GMRS than CB while still being able to talk to FRS. I'm not suggesting FRS but lots of people do have them. And GMRS handhelds are much more efficient than CB handhelds due to the need for only 6" when you want a 1/4 wave antenna. Plus my GMRS handhelds have a bigger speaker than any FRS radio and give better sound. The mobile units are also better built than ANY CB I've ever seen. Check out... http://www.icomamerica.com/land_mobile/mobileuhf/icf2020main.html Plus you can get a remote mount and a 6" (over the equivelant 102" CB antenna) antenna on your roof and it will be stealthy.   Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 07:29 pm:    GMRS is a great solution, albeit the line-of-sight (and slightly beyond that) limitation remains. Especially if one is used that's not just expanded version of a FRS handheld with the same 400mW of output (like the ones i bought for my daughter science fair project). I've been looking into mobile (like CB units) GMRS transceivers even before the craze with FRS began, but didn't get much. Is there really 50W power limit on GMRS? on the other hand, how many people you wheel with are going to spend $85 on a 5-year license? peter   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 07:47 pm:    Yes, the limit is 50watts and the license is $75 but someone here said they were able to get an exemption. But when you think about $75 over 5 years it's really not much then throw in the fact that that license covers your wife and kids, inlaws, parents, brothers and sisters it's a good deal. Mobile GMRS transceivers are nice. I really like my ICOM and Vertex units. They're mil-spec and can really take abuse and dust. Better sound and range than CB. And as for the cost over CB? It's really not that much unless you want it to be. And you could say the same about Land Rovers vs. Jeeps. FWIW, I have been able to reach over 60 miles on my hand held GMRS to another handheld while we were both inside cars through a repeater. Try that with CB without skip.   Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 07:53 pm:    How much was the Icom? speaking of 60 mi without skip, truckers do it all the time. they just put 1kW+ linear amps, crank the squelch up, and don't give a damn about the others I remember being impressed listening to two truckers' conversation - one was south of Indianapolis, another - north of Chicago. The conversation was perfectly crisp and clear - I was driving my POS a bit East of Kalamazoo, Michigan. peter   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 09:07 pm:    I honestly don't remember. I want to say in the ball park of $300 and change. I picked up a 9m remote kit, 100+ channel memory expansion, programming cable and software so I could program it myself and other stuff so I don't recall the breakdown. If you're thinking of getting something like that the F420 is the same radio but without the remote mounting ability. And The Vertex VX-4000 is another nice radio with the ability to do two radios withone head unit if needed. But the Vertex also charges much more for software and cables if you want to program it yourself. I love the ICOM and I've even bagged the CB because I can't stand the things anymore but I keep a HT in the glove just in case I do a run where I need it but I haven't used it in a while. I keep a couple of Vertex VX-400 and VX-800 Hand Held radios to be able to talk to people while I'm outside the vehicle and the range is much better than any FRS or CB handheld plus it has a real speaker. I've even dropped it on rocks and used it in the rain with no problems. These aren't cheap handhelds but they're not toys either. Next step will be my HAM ticket. I hear my ICOM can be programmed down to the 70cm freq with good results.   Joe Posted on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 09:39 am:    Where is a good place to buy a CB Radio? What is a good brand to buy?   Alan Bates (Alanb) Posted on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 11:13 am:    Joe: Have a look at this site: http://www.alfenterprises.com/ I got my CB and antenna from them, great prices, and fast shipping.   Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Posted on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 11:19 am:    I'd go with a cb first. Then maybe the handheld frs. In groups the combination of cb and hand held can be kind of anoying especially if you have to comunicate on both. I wind up with the frs in one hand and the cb mike in the other and it always seems that as I am talking on one, someone is trying to reach me on the other. I think everyone should have a cb. There should be a law.   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 11:35 am:    lol... I think everyone should have GMRS and get out of the stone ages   Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Posted on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 12:01 pm:    as long as there's no 1000 ft ridge between the lead vehicle and tailgunner   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 12:51 pm:    Peter, from my experience the line of sight hasn't been that much of an issue as the problems and limitations on CB have been. UHF will bounce well off objects. At 20watts or higher the signal will bounce off buildings or valley walls pretty well and get where you need to go. Here in VA we have lots of rolling hills and I still get better range and audio on GMRS than with CB. Remember we're dealing with mobile setups here and not well tuned huge base antennas. 2m or MURS (something in the ~150mhz range) would be nicer but it's not as available to most people on the trail.   Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Posted on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 12:57 pm:    good point, Al. my mind is diffraction-limited peter   Curtis N (Curtis) Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 12:24 am:    Al & peter, Good banter guys. Al, I am surprised you have not gone and tested out for your Tech license. It is sooo easy and you definitely have the knowledge. If any of you radioheads are interested, I am about to post a Kenwood TM-D700A on Ebay with a reserve of $500. It has been a great radio, but I have lost interest in the TNC and APRS functions and have decided to settle on something more basic. Curtis KD7MMK   phil deguzman (Powerslide) Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 12:43 am:    I have a tech plus license and have used all types of transceivers including modified CB's. For cross-country driving, a CB is still good to have but for trail use, I am thinking of the Garmin Rino 120 GPS with FRS/GRMS Radio. http://www.garmin.com/products/rino120/ I plan to purchase a pair soon. - Phil / KD6RQZ -   Jess Alvarez (Jester) Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 03:27 am:    Phil, I just bought a Rino 120 a few weeks ago. I love this thing. Having the GPS unit and the FRS/GRMS radio in one is nice. It eliminates the need for 2 separate gadgets in the truck. (but we all like gadgets, right?) The base mapping is kind of crappy, so you will need to get a Garmin Mapsource CD in order to fill it out. One of the cool things about it is the peer to peer positioning. Not much serious use on the trail because you can pretty much look in your rearview mirror and see the guy right behind you, but it is useful for hiking, motocross, etc. when you may have more of a tendency to get separated from your friends, etc. They work with any FRS radio too, so you dont need to have a friend with a Rino in order to communicate with them.   Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco) Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 08:17 am:    Curtis - Only reason I haven't gone for the tech license yet is time. It's hard enough with two kids to find time to wheel But I do plan on it. My VX-800 and IC-F2020 can go into the 70cm range to it would be a matter of reprogramming the radio once I'm legal to use those frequencies.   Tim Grubb Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 04:25 pm:    Hi guys, I'm an aspring LR enthusiast looking for a good disco, have my eyes on a green disco1 for $8850 at a local dealership. I've been offroading for about 6 years and have been a licensed Ham for for about 9 years (since I was 13yrs old). I've found nothing to be quite as effective as 2 meter and 70cm (440mhz) Amateur Radio for offroading, and for emergency use they are invaluable. Being the big geek that I am though, I force myself not to be disconnected from communications of any form at any given time. In my blazer and 4runner I constantly carried with me all of the following: 2 Alinco DJ-S11T 2meter HT's 1 Kenwood TM-261A Mobile 50watt 2m Transceiver 1 Alinco DX-70TH HF Ham Xcvr w/ remote head 2 Handheld Uniden FRS Radios 1 Cobra CB mobile unit 1 Cobra CB handheld unit For APRS I used some cheap TNC from a hamfest, and a Clarion VRX-815 7" Widescreen motorized in-dash TV (We use it for DVD's as well, we have family spread all over ohio and we ski, so we are constantly on the go.) I grew up in a 'Ham' family, with a father of engineering background and a brother for a 4x4 motorhead, this is how I evolved. With all of my equipment I never can stay out of touch. My best advice to those looking for off-road comm: Use what works best for you. I'm sure you know some people with much of the equipment discussed here, so try it all out! If you are motivated towards getting your Ham ticket, I shamelessly promote Amateur Radio where possible, so go give it a shot! It will probably provide the best quality audio and transmission range of any form of communications, without compromise, and with equipment which is of high quality and a reasonable price. Cheers, and hope to talk to you all again soon. Tim Grubb KB8SRK