| Author |
Message |
    
James Gall (Jimmyg)
| | Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 12:38 am: | 
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Check out www.harborfreight.com. Search winches! Has any one had any luck with this winch? As far as I see, it is stronger, better gearing, thicker wire, and cheaper. Help me out here folks!!!! Just doing my research. |
Ron
| | Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 12:49 am: |
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ghetto
do not buy
flaming pos
Ron |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 12:54 am: |
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Ron,
Have you bought, used, and destroyed this winch?
I have nicknamed Harbor Freight: "Chinese Tool Store". We have a brick and mortar here and I buy thir stuff for temporary usage and only if I am prepared to buy that item again. In other words: I rarley buy there. Still, I have never had an item from HF fail.
While I would not reccomend buying anything from them without serious reserve, I doubt I could call thier winch a POS without some experience.
Curtis |
James Gall (Jimmyg)
| | Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 01:08 am: |
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From my immediate research. This winch is better than a Warn 9000lb winch. Chicago Electric does make major winches for some companys...right??? Maybe Warn??? Learn Lesson I do soon. |
Ron
| | Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 01:11 am: |
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I ordered a HF 8000 winch and it is as I decscribed. I sent it back it was such a POS.
Chicago Electric is HF inhouse brand. Chicago Pneumatic is a real company.
Ron |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 01:58 am: |
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Ron,
Cool - now we are starting to get to the heart of the matter. So: how was it such a POS? When did it fail? Or, did it fail your personal inspection right out of the box? Although I am not defending the contrary, what criteira did you use to determine the POS staus of this winch?
Curtis |
AdrianS
| | Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 11:05 am: |
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JohnC has an HF8k winch that he never installed. It looks just like the winch I have, MileMaker 8K electric ($399). The controlers are exactly the same. I've used the MM to get myself out of deep mud 2 weeks ago and had no problems. FWIW
Adrian
91 RRC |
Marc Ingham (Marcingham)
| | Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 11:34 am: |
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Curtis -
wait for Milemarker's new electrics - they have a 12K and a 9 or 10K coming out soon. Pricing should be in-line with their 8k($325 online) which should put it about $400 something for the 9/10K and $500ish for the 12K (hopefully).
I have heard all kinds of different opinions on their quality, from noting their chinese origin and drawing bad inferences therefrom, to better then warn, to "at least they have accurate ratings". I am sure, however, that the quality will be heads and shoulders above HF, whose quality is, in my experience, sub-par. |
Marc Ingham (Marcingham)
| | Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 11:42 am: |
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Ooops, I posted before I saw Adrians post -
maybe they are made in the same factory and re-branded here.
However, if you compare the specs on HF and MM pages, all the specs are different, from line-speeds to ratings, even dimensions and weight.
Maybe they sourced out the same remote or control pack, if that is what Adrian is referring to. |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 11:57 am: |
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i'm sure a lot of people out there are like me. throught your life you have bought cheap stuff. then break it. then you hold off buy something good and love the reliablitly of this object.
it can be everything from shoes to a tool or garden hose.
i kept buying the good stuff and everyonce in a while dipping into the cheap bin and getting burned. this is what lead me to a land rover.
for some reason , me and cheap junk dont mix, though i admit to occasionally only when the bargain is sick do i go cheap. like harbor freights million lock washers for a nickle.
point is. this winch is 400 for a reason. it's cheap junk. it might last you a year and then you are out the 400. or you can spend 850 once and have a product last you 15 years or more...
for the love of god, please step away from the cheap winch.
rd |
Eric N (Grnrvr)
| | Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 12:21 pm: |
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I'm with Rob on this one. The last thing that I would want my truck dangling from would be a cheap, poorly built bargin winch. Save the extra money and get a good quality one. |
Marc Ingham (Marcingham)
| | Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 12:59 pm: |
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I agree with you guys,
However, I have been contemplating a winch purchase for quite awhile. I had pretty much decided on either a MM hydraulic or a worm gear electric. I would have already purchased a worm gear electric, but I am afraid I will not be able to make it fit in my bumper without MAJOR modifications.
I am thinking about the MM 12k electric for a few reasons other than price. First of all it is smaller than the worm gear electrics and I think I will be able to make it fit without much trouble. Also, at 12k it will be sufficiently over-powered that I feel will comfortable with using it and not frying it. Also, I have heard from more than one source that MM rated these conservatively in order to enjoy favorable comparison to the big red W.
My biggest reservation is build quality. I have heard from more than one person that they seem to be well built. One person, whose opinion I value a little more than others, has told me the 8k looked cheap to him, but he had not seen one in use. For what it is worth, MM tells me that the winches are made in China, but that they selected the factory themselves and have very high quality control standards.
I never would have gone with the 8K, but am seriously considering the 12K in light of the above factors.
Personally, I feel that MM has either:
1)brought us a good winch at a great price in order break into the electric market with a bang and maintain their good name for quality and value, or;
2)tried to make a quick buck by slapping their good name on a substandard product.
I would purchase with the hope that no one in their position would be foolish enough to risk their reputation on option #2. |
Alan Bates (Alanb)
| | Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 03:59 pm: |
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I am guilty of buying a cheap winch, just got the Mile Marker E8000. I just couldn't pass it up for $399 with roller fairlead, so please don't flame me. Quality seems good, pretty well built unit, but probably not as good as the other higher dollar ones, have not had a chance to really use it, but I will keep the board informed and hopefully it is option #1 as Marc suggested. |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 05:26 pm: |
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alan, i know some people that get away with the cheap stuff. some people like me are cursed and break it instantly. i used to break huffy bikes monthly
after a dozen you are up to a $1000 quality mnt bike. so think of it as a "value" rahter than expensive
rd
rd |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 11:47 pm: |
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Rob,
You have actually made a point and counterpoint there. Huffys will last plenty of people a long time and give adequate service for what they need. I do not have one and have never owned one. However, a $1000 MTB would not last me a month before I was breaking components. I can't even think of a frame for under $1K I would consider. The only way to go is XTR with a dash of Chris King and maybe a sprinkling of Ti where needed.
My point is that a buying decision is based on use. A Huffy is fine to many, but crap to you. A $1000 MTB is fine for you, but crap to me. If a person is not using a winch that much and never in critical situations, what harm is a cheap winch? It would be nice if everyone could have a 12K Ramsey, but I also know too many people with $1K bikes that rarely touch them.
Curtis |
andythoma
| | Posted on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 11:24 am: |
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So Curtis, if I bought one would you let me pull you with it? I personally think the MM electric winch might work for my needs, using your logic. By the way want to try and wheel this weekend?
Andy |
AdrianS
| | Posted on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 11:52 am: |
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The MM e8000 I got was one of the first production units they sent out. I've had mine for about 6 months now. The first time I used it I burned out the power-out solenoid. I called them and they told me they were installing HD solenoids on the second run of winches. They sent me a new box with HD solenoids 2 days later. I got to use it about 2 weeks ago. I was stuck pretty good. Single line wasn't enough to get me out so I used a snatch block and 50' of tow straps. (the tree was about 70' away and at a 45 degree angle from my truck and there were only 4 or 5 wraps left on the drum even with the straps!!!) I was able to get myself out with no problem and the winch didn't even get hot. I'm happy with it. Maybe someday I'll get something bigger.
Adrian
91 RRC |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 12:00 pm: |
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curt i broke the huffy bikes 15 years ago... there has been inflation.
i know i had a counter point. that was deliberate. it's my way of saying, i warned you but yes it can work. i think i was very clear.
if you keep breaking $ 1000mnt bike frames you might want to consider building your own bycicle. it's very simple and you save tons. but you already knew that.
if you find yourself being one of those people that can get away with using cheap stuff then buy the winch. if you are the guy always standing there with broken shit wondering "why me" then maybe it's time you bough the good stuff.
once you make that change to quality you find yourself saying "i have bad luck" less... people always blame cheap stuff they break on bad luck. lol.
i hope that is clear enough.
rd |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 02:29 pm: |
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Andy,
I will let you pull me with it if I need a pull. My truck is not real picky about that kind of stuff. E me off line at curtis@newkirks.net and lets try to get something together for Saturday or Sunday.
Curtis |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 02:47 pm: |
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Rob,
Trying to build a quality frame is not as simple as you say. I know of some great frames for about $400 that would be hard to break. They are also a hardtail and heavy. I ride a Titus Racer-X. It is light and on the pricey side. If I broke it, I would buy another. I will leave framebuilding to those who do it for a living.
I never said I was even remotely interested in buying the Chinese winch. You must have read something into what I said that was not there. My point is simply that there is a proportionality that has to be achieved between ability to pay, need, use, and price. Unless you know what someone is going to use something for (and actually know the product they are considering), it would seem like any reccomendation would have no foundation.
Curtis |
James Gall (Jimmyg)
| | Posted on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 07:33 pm: |
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So, I guess not a single person out there has had first hand experience with this inexpensive winch??? So many bash it while never seeing it. Any one know where the motor comes from for the Warn 9000lb winch? Occasionally, inexpensive does not mean poorly made. Ex: A u-joint from LR is $100+, from NAPA it is less than $50. Is the LR better? NO. I'd really like to hear from those who have seen one in action. The specs look good. |
Kyle
| | Posted on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 07:40 pm: |
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"The specs look good" ???? You mean the shit they put in print so that you will want to buy it ? Its supposed to look good. I think you should ignore the advice and get the cheap winch... You wont truley be happy unless you do.... As Ho would say,,,Just do it !!
Kyle |
James Gall (Jimmyg)
| | Posted on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 07:59 pm: |
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I've never purchased anything for my truck without first hand experience. I wheel more than most and am not willing to take a chance with an unproven product! The result could be deadly. I'll be damned if I try a winch that could have a plastic housing that melts in the sunlight. |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 11:45 pm: |
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James,
OK - I actually at least looked at the specs. I then compared it to a Ramsey REP 9000. The two look pretty close, and coincedentally, HF carries some Ramsey winches. I am not saying it is a Ramsey. I am almost positive it isn't. However, for sake of argument, lets assume it is a rebadged REP 9000.
You buy the HF winch and it works fine. Two years down the road you need brushes, gears, new drum...whatever. You call HF and they give you a dumb look. Lets say you spend $100 or $200 more and get the REP 9000. In two years you have the same parts need. All you do is call Ramsey and they send you the stuff.
End result is that this is a throwaway winch. However well it may work, you will likly have to toss it when it is out of warranty. Most winches are pretty simple to repair. You can rest assured with a name brand, you can probably get parts.
I would buy the HF winch if it was a steal. In this case my high price on it would be $250. I would not feel so bad if it ended up in the trash then.
Curtis |
GregH
| | Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 12:11 am: |
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I would think a winch is something you would select without initially considering price. Once you have picked out the brand/model that meets your needs based on facts and the experience of people you trust-THEN you price shop for that model.
I like to think that that's how most people who own Land Rovers (and use them offroad) ended up with them. |
James Gall (Jimmyg)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 01:04 am: |
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I have picked the Warn 12,000 lb winch. I have been stuck in snow and the Warn 9000 just smoked. After doing 2 years of research, I found a 95 Toyota Land Cruiser to be the best for what I needed, but could not afford it. I bought a 95 disco and have put 28,000 miles off road with it and am shocked it still runs(in the past 4 years). LR told me to sell it to them for $3200 (Roaring Fork ,CO). They said it was shot! I thought that was bull shit. I only paid $6000 for my rig 4 years ago. I work 2 days a week and try to wheel the rest. I've seen most products in use from Moab to FL to Va. With 176,000 miles and no major repairs, I like to look for inexpensive/High quality parts. That's why people like EE/DR/GBR and RTE are in business. If a cheap winch lasts 2 years...it sucks. But what if it lasts 6??? That is all I'm saying, what if it does last? And please tell me, at the bottom of the Warn page for 9000lb winch it does not say "CE winches....". I'm 99% sure CE does not stand for Chicago Electric, but what if? It's late, I'm probably confused; but then again, I'm only 24. School me. One who acts dumb, learn most. |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 01:49 am: |
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James,
Admittedy, I am cnofused over the 9000 being "smoked". Warn has a rep on this board that would imply that the term means it burned up. However, I am thinking you mean that it worked well. Whether my interpretation is right or not, I am sure you will be better of with a name brand.
Curtis |
James Gall (Jimmyg)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 02:15 am: |
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Curtis,
I was high centered in 3 feet of snow all around at 11,500ft in June. A jeep came to the rescue with a TT in the front and a Detroit in rear with Thornbirds on all four. He first got stuck just trying to get to my rig (I was all open)and swore that ARB was the way to go because the lockers he had only kicked in after he got stuck. Anyway, he tried to winch me out and I just pulled him towards me. I hooked the rear of his crapper to a tree and he preceeded to try to pull. I moved about a cm and then his winch started to smoke. His winch was 8 months old and used 3-4 times. My first Warn turn-off. I guess every winch has a down side...right? |
Greg Hirst (Gregh)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 02:25 am: |
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James-You don't sound "dumb" to me. However, Curtis' statement above that he wouldn't feel so bad if he paid $250 for winch that he later had to throw in the trash, does. That's still $250 that could have gone for a good winch.
I learned while a poor college student that buying the "best priced" rebuilt starter or alternator (even with "lifetime" warranty) meant I was stuck by the side of the road within 6 months having the hassle of replacing with an equal POS. I was better off biting the bullet and buying a better unit for more money now than later. Taking the "risk" of whether it's going to last just isn't worth it to me.
However, at your age I was doing the same thing you are-looking for bargains that probably don't exist. I certainly do not think that means you're "dumb", just a bit like me! 
BTW-right now I'm replacing my 2 1/2 ton HFTools floor jack I bought about 6 years ago that's gone south-what a bargain!
GregH |
TPH (Snowman)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 08:06 am: |
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hi-
i agree that huffy is fine for many, if they are assembled properly. the problem is they are generally put together by the same guy that does the weber grills. people then pay a real bike shop as much to tune it later on as they paid originally for the bike! add those costs together plus about $50.00 and you can get an entry level bike with a lifetime frame. i am also interested in a winch. what is your opinion of mile marker's line-up? at what point do you get a real winch or is the quality just not ever there? thanks. |
M. K. Watson (Lrover94)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 10:12 am: |
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"a TT in the front and a Detroit in rear with Thornbirds on all four."
"swore that ARB was the way to go because the lockers he had only kicked in after he got stuck."?????????????????????????????
i am guessing it was the lame-ass tires that got him stuck, and geez the miles this will start. anyways to my point, ""The specs look good" ???? You mean the shit they put in print so that you will want to buy it ? Its supposed to look good. I think you should ignore the advice and get the cheap winch... You wont truley be happy unless you do.... As Ho would say,,,Just do it !!
Kyle "
ok having resaid that there should be no room for further discussion on this particular topic.
as for the other lingering topic.... Huffy sucks!
mike w |
jay caragay (Jcaragay)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 11:10 am: |
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James-
It seems obvious to me that practically no one on this board has any real, first-hand experience with the winch in question. Therefore, most advice regarding to the thought that the winch is a POS is without basis and deserves little credit.
That said, the fact that no one on this board has any experience with the winch could also be an indicator of it's suitability for our purposes (vehicle recovery). Many of the guys on here are experienced off-roaders that have been stuck and worse. You ought to consider that when thinking about this winch. It could very well be that it has simply been an over-looked item all these years due to some sort of equipment snobbery. It could also be that the winch is unworthy of these pursuits.
You have to review your needs and your desires. Perhaps this is the winch for you. It doesn't sound like it's inexpensive and you might want to try it out and add to the collective real-world experience here on Dweb - an experience with a winch other than Warn, MileMarker, etc.
I've never seen the winch you're asking about but I equate it to a similar experience with lesser-known, possibly lesser-quality, inexpensive tools. One day I ran into a truckload power tool sale and picked up a Chinese-made grinder for $10. Heck, a $10 grinder! It works fine and does what I ask. If it decides to break one day, I can always run down to Home Depot and by the Porter Cable one I prefer - no big deal.
However, if the winch decides to break when you need it, you'll probably be deep into the trail, all alone, doing a self-recovery - where it will be next to impossible to call RoverTym and have a new Warn dropped to you via airlift.
And then you might have to walk out.... |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 11:20 am: |
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Quote:It seems obvious to me that practically no one on this board has any real, first-hand experience with the winch in question. Therefore, most advice regarding to the thought that the winch is a POS is without basis and deserves little credit.
i think many of us are all too familiar with harbor fieghts line of quality products...
$400 is a lot of money to just throw away.
rd |
James Gall (Jimmyg)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 03:13 pm: |
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I think this dead horse has been beat to a pulp and then run over by a huffy. Thanks for all the opinions. I'll pass on the cheap winch. |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 12:52 am: |
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Greg,
"James-You don't sound "dumb" to me. However, Curtis' statement above that he wouldn't feel so bad if he paid $250 for winch that he later had to throw in the trash, does. That's still $250 that could have gone for a good winch."
LOL. Let me give you an analogy:
I can spend $750 on a decent winch or $1000 on a better one. Which one do I buy? The $1000 winch.
So lets put this in perspective to my $250 winch scenario:
Many winches are crap to begin with. That is why you find so many people that hate one winch or another of every brand made. All winches will also eventually fail. That being said, I think it would actually be intelligent (rather than "dumb") to buy a throwaway winch. It is a hell of a lot smarter than buying a Warn for $750+ and throwing it away as well. I can lose only $250 it does not look to bad when I have to go spend $1000.
...but then you go on to make my point:
"BTW-right now I'm replacing my 2 1/2 ton HFTools floor jack I bought about 6 years ago that's gone south-what a bargain!"
Six years is not forever. I will give you that. However, six years is a good long time if you could not have afforded better at the time. Don't be a dumbass. You obviously made the best decision you could with what you had to spend.
Money is a transitory object. It never stays around long. $250 takes me and the family to the grocery store each week. It's no big deal. I can afford to lose it. That is why I used it in my hypothetical scenario. For you to say it sounds "dumb", and then follow up with your floor jack experience, qualifies your post as dumb in itself.
Curtis |
Greg Hirst (Gregh)
| | Posted on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 03:51 am: |
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Curtis-
Thanks for the lecture on economics.
Everyone has their own concept of "utility" gained on any purchase they make no matter what it is. If it wasn't so we'd all be driving the same vehicles and wearing the same clothes and prices would be much higher due to supply and demand.
What I consider "dumb" is "intelligent" to you. Yep, that's what "utility" is all about.
Here's my analogy- My neighbor drives a Ford Exploder and I drive an RRC. We each consider the other's purchase "dumb" and our own "intelligent". We also point out this out to each other when something goes wrong with the other's vehicle. We're also good friends.
BTW-My shiny new 3 1/2 ton RED floor jack that I just bought at Costco for $69.99 is a beautiful example of high quality chicom craftsmanship. Unlike that old beat-up ORANGE POS 2 1/2 ton chicom floor jack I just threw in the trash that I paid $69.99 at HF tool 6 years ago. That thing must have been beat together on a rock by some hapless political prisoner... hehe
GregH |
John Cinquegrana (Johnc)
| | Posted on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 10:25 pm: |
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Here is a pic of my 1988 RR with a HF 8000 lb winch. I purchased the winch a few years ago and was planning on installing it on my CJ7. Since the CJ does not get stuck as often as my Rover I decided to use it on the Rangie.
FWIW I had 3 kids in the car and 300 lbs of gear (yes, I bring along lots of tools, spare parts and fluids). I Forgot to add my 250 lbs.
The winch did not burn up or slow down.
 |
John Cinquegrana (Johnc)
| | Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 07:41 am: |
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Sorry for the poor quality of this pic. |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 01:21 pm: |
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all that sounds familiar... "I only have 31" all-terrains on my Cherokee, and I never get stuck" kinda thing.
Curtis,
A guy I know runs a tame and lame business of importing bike frames from my homeland. Made out of Titanium, for about $600 apiece. I've never been much into mtn.biking, but from i hear it's a pretty decent deal.
peter |
John Cinquegrana (Johnc)
| | Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 02:33 pm: |
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Actually Peter, I never get stuck in the CJ 'cause I don't use it anymore.... hehehehe
I just don't have the time to spend on it with the new house and Disco... so many toys so little time!!! |
Rans (Rans)
| | Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 03:01 pm: |
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Ever notice that you only run out of propane at the worst possible moment: in the middle of cooking that steak? Thats cuz you aren't using the propane unless the grill is on. Good thing you have that spare propane bottle....
Ever notice that you only smoke a winch when you most need it's ability to rescue you: When you are REALLY stuck good and the winch has to fight like hell to get you out? Do you REALLY want to wait til then to find out if the cheap one was worth it? (I guess you could carry a spare one?) |
John Cinquegrana (Johnc)
| | Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 03:11 pm: |
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I'm one step ahead of you Rans... I always carry a spare buddy with me...LO |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 04:36 pm: |
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LOL John,
you can substitute any vehicle into my post. one dude kept telling me he'd go anywhere in a honda accord i'd go in a jeep or land rover. another dude lost me ONE GRAND on a totally stupid bet that a Grand Cherokee (he once owned) did NOT have a 4-liter V8 (as he claimed).
there's plenty of people on this board saying how great a hi-lift is as a hand winch, so, of course, a $499 winch is at least 10 times better.
peter |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 07, 2003 - 01:20 am: |
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Peter,
Thanks, but kinda like many in this thread (OK: Ron & rob), I have an unsubstantiated bias. In this case it is against Russian Ti. At least I am willing to admit that it is an unsubstantiated bias.
Russian Ti has a history of being very brittle and cracking easily. Much of this is probably due to the fact that it used to be harder to weld than some of the more pliable forms. Still - it is one of those things: I only buy US Ti. The welders of US Ti seem to be better with the exception of Lightspeed. They seem to be on par with most Russian Ti builders.
Curtis |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 07, 2003 - 04:36 pm: |
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Curtis,
FWIW, one local aircraft engine parts manufacturer in San Diego ultimately switched from U.S.-made Ti and Al in favor of one company deep in Ural mountains. They've had their share of problems - only because the russian Ti and Al were by far superior to what GE considered good. The superiority was in purity of either metal - which for both means better plasticity.
so I don't know where do you get your history; just think of all these subs with Ti hulls lurking deep under.
peter |
muskyman
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 07, 2003 - 04:46 pm: |
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russian Ti rocks the golf world...ely Callaway was pissed when the russian knock-offs of his clubs withstood greater impact then his real Callaway Ti heads did.
to knock russian Ti is just garbage, it all depends on what it is alloyed with and at what percentages. Nissan used forged Ti rods in the 300z turbos that came from russia and according to what I have read they where able to withstand 900hp with stock rods where the ones Nissan tried in the first place forged in the USA had failure problems in the stock 300hp they where targeting.
to this day everything I have ever heard about Russian Ti has been top notch as long as the alloy checks out |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 01:01 am: |
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Peter,
Oh man - you should not have got me started. Pay attention to what I said above
Ti does not care too much about where it comes from. Neither do I. It only cares about what the purity of the metals, what the alloy is, and who welds it.
Much of the early Russian Ti in cycling showed up as consumer grade Ti. This was a problem because the purity of the metals was in question. The alloys that were coming from Russian consumer grade Ti were skeptical at best. Much of it they tried to pass off as commercial grade Ti, but it simply did not have the purity. This has probably changed.
3/2.5 Al/V or 6/4 Al/V are the two main alloys used for Ti tubing. The numbers represent percentages, and the letters - the material used in the alloy. 3/2 tends to be the best for tubed applications because it can be easily drawn into a seamless tube. 6/4 has only recently been able to be pounded into a seamless tube by a UK company. Seamless tubes are important for several reasons that I will only go into if asked. However, 6/4 in a seamless tube is about 10% stronger than 3/2.
OK - all that set aside, the reality is that the only way that Ti can be useful in bikes is once it is welded into a frame. Subs can be made in sheets - not tubes. The material is actualy not as expensive as the welding. A good Ti welder costs a lot and the process is more difficult, and the cost of material lost is a even more expensive.
If you trash a frame at the dropouts, the frame is trashed - labor and material. Because of the enhanced labor costs, American Ti manufacturing tends to be very meticulous in who it hires to do the job. Russian Ti tends to be less so. As far as muskys response to golf clubs: who cares?? Golf clubs require little in the way of material manipulation, and even less in the way of welding (i.e. NONE). As far as muskys coments on forged Ti rods: anyone who knows metallurgy will attest to the fact that they must have chosen a really crappy US manufacturer. You simply cannot get a 300% increase in strength due to a simple forging process.
So - my bottom line stands true: I will not likely be riding any Russian Ti in the near future. If I do, I will be welded in the US.
Curtis |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 12:02 pm: |
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i'm not selling you anything, Curtis, so no reason to go ballistic
there is no commercial-grade titanium in russia, and never was. i wonder where did the shit you talk about actually come from. as i mentioned above, General Electric had to change its standards and requirements for raw materials to accept russian Ti and Al - because they were very pure compared to Alcoa's fare. and i have an inclination to think that aircraft-grade titanium is not worse than that used for bicycle frames.
peter |
muskyman
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 01:09 pm: |
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Quote:As far as muskys response to golf clubs: who cares?? Golf clubs require little in the way of material manipulation, and even less in the way of welding (i.e. NONE).
you are dead wrong...most Ti golf clubs are welded, the sole,crown,and face of the head are all welded togather.they also are welding ultra thin pieces to achieve the desired dynamics in ever larger heads
also the golf club industry has developed a number of Ti working strategies that have now gone back into the aerospace industrie and improved it.
to think technolgy is country specific is just common USA pig headedness.
the whole Ti mtnbike industry togather is nothing compared to the billions in Ti developement the golf companys have done.the fact is there just isnt the demand for a Ti mtn bike there is for a beta forged Ti driver. sorry it dosent makes sence to you but its true.
Mizuno of Japan announced that they have perfected a new forge process for Ti that will more then double the the strength of any other process out there. and it wasent for airplanes it was for golf clubs.
so sorry for getting you going but what I am saying is very easily verified ....the rich of this world want there fancy Ti golf clubs that get them an extrta few yards and are willing to pay huge prices to get it. so companys will race for the best technolgy to sell them a $500 driver. |
muskyman
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 01:13 pm: |
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two more things
300hp to 900hp dosent really say that there was a 300% gain in strength,just that the gains in strength could withstand 300% more load.
there is a difference
also
on the winch thing...a 8000lb winch of any brand is very undersized for a 5000lb truck |
Ho Chung (Ho)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 01:21 pm: |
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james, just do it.
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Steve (Scrover)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 01:47 pm: |
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Well, if you really want to save a few hundred bucks, just go with this:
CB Winch
It "Yanks a vehicle of up to 6000 lbs. out of a snow bank." What more could you ask for? |
AdrianS
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 01:51 pm: |
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"on the winch thing...a 8000lb winch of any brand is very undersized for a 5000lb truck "
Thats why everyone carries a snatch block, no matter what size winch you have.....Right? |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 01:55 pm: |
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lol, 6000lb rolling load... meaning it's actually a 600lb winch.
what the hand crank is there for? to help the smokin' motor? |
Kris Arnott
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 04:20 pm: |
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I own 3 Dean ti bikes... still saving for a winch! I guess I can always ride to get help when I get stuck.
-Kris |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 05:27 pm: |
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Kris,
i don't know how many bikes you need to peddle through 3-foot snow... if that's where you're stuck.
peter |
muskyman
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 05:33 pm: |
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my younger brother the mtn bike racer once said he could ride his bike anywhere I could take a truck...he ended up with a mud encrusted bike in the back of my truck as he sat in the passenger seat with egg on his face.
moral= use the correct tool for the job |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 05:59 pm: |
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snowshoes!
for the cheapst cheap bastards i'v got the harbour frieght deal beat
http://www.natltire.com/ntw0799/pages/ramsey.html
REP8000E
399
rd |
Paul D. Morgan (V22guy)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 07:14 pm: |
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Peter, Curtis, Muskyman;
Very interesting debate on Ti. Now, I have no idea about how Ti works in the Golf industry and have never ridden a Ti bike. Curtis, I am still partial to my Aluminum / composite / plastic Scapel. But I can tell you that Ti does not weld easily, but can be formed or CAMed easily. A lot of vendors that manufacture aircraft parts, import Ti from Russia. The most popular form of Ti we use is the 6AL-4V. 6AL means 6% aluminum alloy, the 4V means 4% vanadiam, and that leaves the remaining 90% to be Ti. One of the biggest reasons the aerospace world goes to Mother Russia is because of their heat treating facilities. You see, if you are going CAM a Main Landing Gear strut for a 747 (example), you would need a solid piece of Ti stock about the size of a Mini-Van. Not many manufacturers in the US can work with Ti Stock that large.
Paul
'00 Rover |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 01:40 am: |
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Musky,
It seems that you must hsve not paid too much attention to what I said before. First off, it is impossble to compare golf clubs to mtb frames. The uses are as far apart as fly fishing and 'wheeling. In essence, you are trying to introduce an argument that simply does not apply to what Peter and I were discussing.
So - is the mtb bike market larger than the Ti club market? Certainly not, but the Ti club market is also not worth "billions" in research dollars as you suggest.
Since the entire golf market in durable goods and accesories is only worth about $10Bil annualy, I leave it to you to tell how they have the "billions" to afford to research that you say they have invested. "Millions" might be more appropriate, but to extend this is to go out on a long limb that you cannot support.
Curtis |
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