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John Davies
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 12:50 am: | 
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I need a capable off-roader to replace my tatty Cherokee. I don't care much about maximum articulation or rock crawling capabilities, but I would like a comfortable expedition type rig that will take me anywhere. Currently most of my off-highway driving is fire roads and easy jeep trails, though I am interested in joining a club and doing some more serious stuff.
I really like the '03 Disco, except for the lack of a CDL and the rather spotty reliability. I would be willing to live without the CDL for a while, and eventually install a proper transfer case.
I also am intrigued by the new Touareg. While it does have fully idependent suspension, it also has a center and rear locker and available air suspension offering 11 inches of clearance. The longer wheel base is not so great for trails. It hauls ass (0 to 60 mph in 7.5 seconds) with the Audi V8, which is a sweet motor. The diesels may or may not make it to the USA, so I would like to keep the discussion to the gas engines.
For those of you who haven't already read the VW propaganda:
http://www.germancarfans.com/features.cfm?FeatureID=1020426.001&Page=1
Any (constructive) comments? Why should I buy the Disco? |
phil deguzman (Powerslide)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 01:19 am: |
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I've read a lot about the Touareg and very familiar with VAG products and own 2 VW cars at the moment (VW Passat 1.8T and a VW GTI). The Touareg is very capable off-road and better than the MB ML and BMW X5's. I'm sure it can go head to head with the D2 for the most part except Rubicon type of trails.
IMO, the VW service is not as good as LR but that can change. I am also considering the Touareg but don't see paying so much for a brand new model at this time. Good luck.
BTW, VW and Audi cars have reliability issues as well. Hell even Toyota's and Honda's but thats a another subject. |
Todd Phenneger (Toddp)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 03:35 am: |
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Get the Touareg. Its a sweet ride. Very Capable, more efficient, much better handling, etc.
If the Diesel ever comes I'll own one. A V10 TDI with 550lbft Torque, that really makes me excited. :-)
But the AUdi V8 is bloody reliable, I know many with 200k+ miles on them. THe Rover Motor is also reliable but its all the other stuff on the Rovers that is cause for dispute in "reliability". However, with the systems on the Touareg, there is a LOT to go wrong. If it were I I'd maybe buy a used D2 to tide you over untill the Touareg's get over the first 6 months and get the bugs worked out. Or just drive what you have for a bit.
Best of Luck. If you get the Touareg then let us know how you like it.
Todd "Donning flame suit and running" |
Todd Phenneger (Toddp)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 03:36 am: |
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I still LOVE my Discovery though. Just have to say that. :-) |
Dave M.
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 07:50 am: |
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If you don't plan on doing a lot of heavy off roading, the Touareg may be the better buy for you. It's very much like the new Rangie, similar suspension, chassis, and traction setups. Even the same auto-disconnect sway bars.
I'd hold off though.
That is a complicated, BRAND NEW vehicle and it WILL have some bugs to work out. And if my experience with my Passat 1.8T still stand, most of the VW dealers suck terribly. the dealer was the biggest reason I didn't get another 'Dub when my passat lease was up... they were that bad. |
Rans (Rans)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 07:58 am: |
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If you are not "of the Land Rover mentality" then it is better that you buy something else, anything else. I say this because if you have to ask why should you buy the Land Rover, then you aren't in "the LR Zone". Not to be glib, but what I am saying is that it is NOT a perfect vehicle, it develops problems, they are not cheap to repair, but pound-for-pound and dollar-for-dollar there just really is no better off-road vehicle out there. PERIOD. But you have to be "in the zone" to appreciate it. |
Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 09:07 am: |
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While I agree with what most people here are saying I have one issue (okay lots of issues) with the VW as an off road vehicle. Okay... the engine is nice. It has good traction control devices (better than the '03 D2 anyway). And I hate the idea of IFS/IRS on anything that would ever see a trail. But with that asside, how do you think the body will hold up?
I haven't had a good history with VW chassis but have seen some nice stiff Audi chassis. So even if they get a stiff chassis, how well do you really think it will hold up in off road use? How long before you park your VW in a situation where one front wheel is 8" higher than one of the oposite rear wheels and suddenly you can't open the door anymore? Or open the cargo door?
BTW the same question goes to the new Rangie and Freelander. I'll just say I've been in plenty of uni-body vehicles where with age this has happened but I have yet to see it on even the most abused Rangie Classic or Disco. |
Lance
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 09:20 am: |
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Hi-
What do these two cost? The Tuareg and 03 Disco, I mean.
The reason I ask is sort of a segue to Rans' post. Here's the point: If one is going to buy a new, ie. warranted vehicle and then use it over bumpy, frame twisting or worse terrain, perhaps far from home and then leave it to one or more anonymous techs at the dealer to deal with every issue that arises, one is entering into- what I'd maintain to be- an untenable man/machine relationship.
Much of the "capability" of any vehicle comes from the knowledge base that allows its use. I'd maintain that this includes not only driving skill, but maintenance and repair skill as well. The familiarity that comes from trouble-shooting and the ability to anticipate that results can lead to a grounded man/machine capability that can prove incredibly valuable when far from home. With a costly and voidable warranty in effect, one is forced into a distanced, 2nd or 3rd hand relationship with a tech or techs, service manager and service writer all interposed between you and your vehicle. For these reasons, a vehicle with factory warranty will always be an unlikely choice for off road venturing.
By modifying their rigs, people are finding opportunities for wrenching even when everything is working well. Many folks will tell you that working on their rig is as important as driving it, which to my mind is a comment on what people want- that sense of go anywhere capability that capability allows.
And so, back to cost. We bought our '94 Disco in really good shape for $4200. One could find a similar car and drop in new, upgraded assemblies for substantially less than an 03. These assemblies would still carry warranties, but from multiple suppliers. If one did much of the locating of parts and removal, replacement work, one would come in contact with a tremendous amount of useful info. along the way. If pursued carefully, the experience of ownership can prove rich and varied and allow for personal growth. Dealing with dealership service departments is not often so useful.
I realize too, that there are many reasons my points are moot, but I feel that part of being in the LR Zone has somewhat to do with the above.
Lance |
Kevin Howell
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 09:51 am: |
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a '94 for $4200? i would find that atypical. i paid 8k for my '94 a while back. mine, excepting a few minor maintenance issues (such as heater core r/r and peeling dash) was in mint condition with 90k miles on it. how did you land such a sweet deal? actually, i don't want to understate that heater core job, though. while not very costly, it nearly kicked my ass.  |
Geoff 93 RRC (Geoff)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 10:28 am: |
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It all depends on your real intended use. When we used to regularly go on weekend tag-along drives in Australia with our D1 I was happy that it was simple and had a basic suspension and drivetrain. Getting it dirty and muddy inside and out was ok.
I once got stuck in deep ruts and the only way out was to ram the thing through it, catching air a couple of times. No damage to the Disco. Wouldn't want to do that with a Touareg though.
The Disco is designed to be field serviceable. eg. if an axle breaks, you can replace it in the bush with hand tools (assuming you brought an extra one). If it gets water logged you can take the relevant bits apart and clean them up. Not sure if the Touareg is quite as easily worked on.
On the other hand for mild trail use or ski trips the Touareg would be fine and of course the daily driving would likely be a bit more refined. |
Lance
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 11:15 am: |
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kevin-
Our 94 has 170,000 miles on it. It was a trade at the local Lexus and I guess they were getting tired of it leaking on their lot. They were asking $5700, but they took $4200.
Lance |
Kevin Howell
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 11:31 am: |
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if everything is running well, high mileage doesn't scare me. i've got an f-150 with almost 200k on it right now, and it runs like a top. i could never sell it for what it's really worth. and i could certainly never replace it with something comparable for what it would sell for. so i'm stuck with it, i guess. ;) |
Jason Vance (Jason)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 12:09 pm: |
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Maybe repeating what has already been mentioned...but,
for offroad, go with the Disco II. Sure, you're not looking for max articulation, etc., but it has two live axles and in many cases where IFS is going to lift one wheel off the ground, the Disco will still have all wheels planted. Unless your offroading is driving BLM paths to your camping spot, you may have many instances where the live-axled Disco will help you out.
Could the Touareg keep up? Sure as Car and Driver mentioned...but the Disco does it with 4 springs and 4 shocks; the Touareg uses a slew of gadgets likely to land you in the shop (see below).
For on-road driving, get the Touareg. It has a more powerful engine, IFS is more confortable on-road, and in the latest Car and Driver comparo, it not only spanked the Disco, but every other car (er, SUV) in the comparison.
But if you buy the Touareg and need servicing, bring KY Jelly...'cuz in the words of Mike Tyson, VWoA "will f*ck you until you love 'em."
BTW, the Touareg and Porsche Cayenne are a joint venture between Porsche and VW. Obviously the VW doesn't get the Porsche engine and who knows what else, but I guess it's still something to brag about. |
Steve (Steve2)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 12:30 pm: |
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touareg will cost in the same 'hood' as the x5 series - $40-50K. in that stratosphere the cayanne(?) might be a possibility?
at $50k you have alot of choices - the h2 etc. a disco fully clapped out is alot less...
i'd check lease rates -but i can promise you that a strippo touareg will not be $399 a month with $3.5k down WITH free scheduled maintenance.
the cars are different animals - drive both and see what you like the best. can't miss with either one.
audi motors are amongst the finest engineered in the world. the precision is better than that of mercedes (imho). |
Brian Dickens (Bri)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 01:09 pm: |
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The two are apples and oranges. You certainly will not be able to do anything even romotely difficult without hammering the VW. Like others have said you will not be able to match the road performance of the VW with a disco.
In the original email you mentione the desire to do more serious trails. If this is the case the disco is the only way to go or of course you could get both! |
Dave M.
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 01:21 pm: |
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Official Touareg pricing is out and it is VERY competitive.
V6 - $34,900
V8 - $40,700
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=651112 |
feroz fazal
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 03:32 pm: |
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I think the comparison should be with the freelander. the disco is an overkill for what your looking for. too much equipment for the buck. i would not settle for less though. but thats just me. |
Dave M.
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 03:57 pm: |
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I disagree.. the Freelander is way less of a truck then the Touareg. Mechanically, the Touareg is almost a point-for-point spec match to the new Rangie, but at half the price. I know the Rover faithful have a hard time with this, but read the reviews and check out the specs.
About the only thing you can "fault" the Touareg for is the unibody design and the complexity of it's electronics. It's a really strong product from VW, no doubt.
Despite a few nicer details like traction control, HDC and the 5-spd. auto, the Freelander really competes with the cute'utes (CRV, RAV4, Escape, Liberty, etc.) At least here in the states.
Personally, I want a Discovery for the extra off-road ability. But for the average consumer who only does light, occassional greenlaning (ie. no rocklimbing or bogging) the Touareg offers a luxurious, multi-capable alternative.
Just my 2 cents, not trying to ruffle feathers. :-) |
craigd
| | Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 01:30 am: |
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03 Disco with it's big V8 rocks...get the enhanced cornering deal, what a blast..the lift control is really nice. I ran it all over Ft. Mc Coy military reservation, in some real rugged and varied terrain in late November...it will go thru sand like it aint even there...I watched my brother struggling thru spots in his vehicle, so I'd just stop right in the crap and watch him spin and fishtail in front of me, then I'd crawl thru it as slow as I could without any momemtum going in....just to piss him off....man the bigger engine is night and day...but doon't expect to get more than about 12 miles per gallon...period. |
cartner
| | Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 06:46 am: |
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you think Rover parts are expensive..yeah..been there with a '98 GTI....I love my disco. |
Zinhead
| | Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 09:20 am: |
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Get the Disco. It is one of two 4 door, full framed, solid axled vehicles left on the market (G-500 the other) and will be dissapearing in a few years for an Explorer based replacement. You can find unibody, independetly sprung vehicles like the Taureg all day long. |
Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco)
| | Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 09:25 am: |
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Did anyone hear the rumor that CDL was going to be available again in the US mid year? That might be worth the wait if you're thinking about getting one. Be sure to tell the dealer you want CDL and get the D2 if you're taking it off road. Get the VW if all you want is to drive snow covered roads. |
Scott (Echo_29)
| | Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 09:55 am: |
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VW
As the owner of a 1999 1.8T (chipped ) I would have bought one if I didn't want to do a little more serious off roading, so I bought a 1996 Land Cruiser!
Sitting on this board for 6 months before deciding I could never live with all the issues the Disco's have, I would buy the VW.
My car even after being driven all over desert roads has held up excellently, the only real issue is that SERVICE SUCKS!!! If you go into it knowing this you'll do fine, just make sure everything is addressed before you leave the service bay and be extra anal with the reps!
We checked the out the Touareg at the Car Show and it was nice, I just don't know how well the underbody plastic cladding will hold up. |
John Davies
| | Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 11:03 am: |
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Al said "Did anyone hear the rumor that CDL was going to be available again in the US mid year?"
Where did you hear that? I would buy a new '03 S model in a heartbeat if the CDL becomes available, even as an expensive option. The two things making me hold off are the lousy gas mileage and the lack of a CDL. If LR will fix either of those I will buy. |
OLIVER CLOTHSOFF (Everythingleaks)
| | Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 09:05 pm: |
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I spoke with a sales rep from LRNA and he stated diff lock should be back as an option in mid 03 |
craigd
| | Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 11:06 pm: |
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Hey-
I thought I had a differential lock on my 2003 Disco!
My transfer case placards over the shifter show that I do.
My owners manual fully explains it's operation on pages 122 and 123. ("Discovery is enhanced by the inclusion of an optional differential lock between the front and rear...")
Now the manual shows a placard for the transfer box operation with a diff. lock, and a placard for those not so equipped
My placard is the one showing operation of the hi lo range AND the differential lock...so I assumed I was so equipped!!!
But I have not been able to lock out the differential, could not get the lever to move left into the lockout position....lightbulb!--my equipment list does not list a differential lock.
Guess what? I've been trying to engage something I don't even have...I just have the wrong placard installed in my vehicle...
Another fine how do you do! Geez...I thought it was just a stubborn sob to engage like my old Trail Duster was...call me an idiot.
I've only had the thing for 2 months and only tried to breifly engage it a couple times, now I know why I couldn't...I want one! Thought I had one! |
OLIVER CLOTHSOFF (Everythingleaks)
| | Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 11:22 pm: |
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There is a recall out on that label. A lot of people were confused about diff lock and if it was equiped.
The service action number is H106 for vehicles in the VIN range 3A767790 thru 3A795059 |
Klaus
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 06:44 am: |
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Tuareg vs. Disco:
The two cars are not comparable imho. Tuareg competes with the likes of BMW X5 and Mercedes ML, maybe even Jeep Grand Cherokee. A clever car, no doubt, but will it hold up to off-road abuse? Look at those shiny bumpers and plastic protection plates... not very likely.
Disco is at least one class down in price (here in Europe) with a completely different market in mind. The Discos original concept dates back more than 10 years now. It has been refined but will never reach the on road ability of Tuareg, X5 or ML. It was never supposed to!
If you absolutely insist on a comparison, the right one would be Mercedes G against Disco. But again those two are seperated by price. But the idea is similar: an almost indestructible chassis with a body that allows travel in relative comfort.
Direct competitors to the disco are btw. Toyota Landcruiser, Mitsubishi Shogun (?), Isuzu Trooper if you sort those by price (again Europe).
Back to the Touareg: we own an Audi Allroad with the same suspension system. It is used offroad a lot but the body is not really up to it. Lots of small problems with the electronics as well. Another one: these modern SUV's go very fast and their tires have been adapted for that fact. One rut or a sharp stone and goodbye high performance street tire! We wrecked 2 during last fall at a price tag of about $300 each!
Every year we spend at least a couple of hundred bucks on the plastic parts exchange.
OK, enough of this, you are trying to compare two vehicles with completely different customer groups in mind. Which one is right for you depends on one person, yourself.
Regards from Germany,
Klaus |
Dave M.
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 12:44 pm: |
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Klaus,
The VW does not share suspension with the Allroad. It's a completely new vehicle from the ground up, co-developed by Porsche. it does share the 4.2L Audi V8, and I'm sure some smaller bits, but it's a new chassis and suspension to the best of my knowledge.
The fact is that the VW compares point-for-point with the new Range Rover. And is just as much a true off road vehicle.
Every test is saying that it is better then a BMW X5 on the road and an equal to the new RR off road.
With 3 locking diffs, huge ground clearance (nearly a foot!), sophisticated electronic traction controls, HDC, true 4 low, big suspension travel, remote sway bar disconnects, remote tire pressure regulator . . . sure sounds good to me. {shrug}
There is hardly a new SUV available today without some vulnerable plastic on it... Discovery included. If you want to knock it for being unibody, fine, but other then that, it sure seems built for the task. |
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