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danielcovaciu
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 07:30 pm: | 
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Hey guys,
Sorry to do this to everyone, I know this subject is really old. However, no one ever really answered all the questions I have on the diffrent winch models.
I have a 98 disco mostly stock. I have 245/75 dunlop R/T's, will get OME HD shortly. One of the next things I want is a ARB non-airbag winch bumper. I think for what I'll actually use it for this bumper should be fine.
My question is WHICH WINCH SHOULD I BUY to put in the bumper? I've never had a winch before. I think hydralic is definatly out. It's more complicated than I need it to be. That leaves me with electric. At first I thought to get a Warm 9000. I even looked at the new mile marker electric 8000. Its only $375 on ebay. From what I hear though these are to small for my rover. From what I understand the non-airbag arb will fit the bigger winches. I dont think I will ever be stuck in mud to the headlights, but I have been stuck before without a winch and had to leave the disco in the woods overnight. And any winch will beat the come along I keep in the back now.
So what do you guys recommend? I know alot of you have winches, some have had several diffrent kinds. I would rather spend a little more and get something up to the task but I just dont see why I would ever need a warm m15000.
Everyones advice is appreciated.
Dan |
Mike B.
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 07:54 pm: |
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In my opinion, an 8,500 or 9,000 lb electric winch will do just fine for your purposes. I think the ARBs are designed to work with the Warn winches, but check with your bumper vendor first. I know the ARB Air Bag compatible bumpers are designed for the Warn winches, but the non-air bag ones may be more open and thus able to fit a wider range of winches.
Thanks,
Mike B. |
Rob Davison (Pokerob)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 08:47 pm: |
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i would go with the warn M12000 the reason you need such a big winch is because warn is LYING about what it can really pull. some will say i'm lying, but why chance it? if there is no price difference or very little get the M12000 the m15000 is the same think with thicker but shorter cable, i like the M12000 better. it is a drop in installation for the ARB bar you want.
rd |
Carter Simcoe (Carter)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 08:59 pm: |
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I have been burried up past the side trim on the doors (winch was down in the mud) and my 9K warn pulled me out w/ no help from the engine (stalled) but I personally think I got very lucky and was waiting for the winch to stall out at any minute. Make sure you carry a shovel if you go below 12K. |
Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 10:27 pm: |
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I know Warn is very popular but I actually like my SuperWinch X9. I agree with Rob on Warns ratings. The superwinch also has a wider spool than the Warns I've seen. Either way carry a good pulley block should you need more pull from your winch. A shovel should just be part of your recovery gear even if you don't have a winch unless you only wheel in rock.
I'm pretty sure the Warns will fit in both versions of the ARB bumper. As will the Superwinch winches. |
Keith Kreutzer (Revor)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 10:42 pm: |
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While it's probably moot but the Warn 8274 has never let me down! But I have an XD 9000i sitting in the garage waiting to be stuck in my bumper..
I'm a big fan of big winches but smaller is usually faster.I think the line speed at an 8000 pound pull on a M12000 is about 4.39 feet per minute compared to the 6.88 FPM at 8000 on a XD9000... Drum wrap and gear reduction is the cause on the big winch, they use the same motor and the reduction needs to greater on the big winch... Current draw is greater with a 9000, about 50 amps. When you're pulling 400 amps to begin with that's probably not a big diff. With higher line speed you'll be doing it for shorter period of time (?)
Of course line speed is only important if you're trying not to run over your cable when you power out of trouble... I've done it..Didn't like it..
If you're dead in the water and the 9000 doesn't have enough, you have a snatch block handy to double the pull of the winch. Now you have an 18000 pound winch (with a short cable) but it's only going a foot or so slower than the 15000... |
danielcovaciu
| | Posted on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 01:05 pm: |
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Thanks for all the great input. I'm hearing recomendations mostly for warn 9000-12000. I didnt know that superwinch models would fit in the non-airbag arb? Has anyone done it? How do they compare to warn models?
This is just the kind of info I was looking for. Anyone else with an opinion please goin in. I love this board!
Dan |
Dominik Chrzan (Dominik)
| | Posted on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 02:26 pm: |
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if going with the warn, don't get the "i" series. they are intended for vertical mounting, and on the non-airbag arb you have to mount it horizontally.
i mean, yeah, technically it can fit, but not if you want it to work (doesn't drain water and, as a result, bad things happen to the winch).
just speaking from experience.
dom |
Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco)
| | Posted on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 03:30 pm: |
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I agree with Dominik about the Warn ("i") integrated winches. Also the Warn 8274 is a nice winch (as Keith said) and if I were to go with Warn that would probably be my choice.
As for the Non-Airbag ARB and SuperWinch winches I've seen them on the trail a few times. I have a D2 so my choice for ARB was only the air bag version. I also know Bill Burke runs the SuperWinch X9's on non-airbag ARB's on his Classic Rangie and D90. He has pictures on his web site if you want to check them out. |
Keith Kreutzer (Revor)
| | Posted on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 06:32 pm: |
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Hmmm Never thought about the ARB winch bumper deal... I have a non bag/non winch bumper that I plan to use my own mounts on...(Never satisfied)
Don't get an 'i' then.... |
danielcovaciu
| | Posted on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 02:05 pm: |
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So definetly dont get warn i seris winches and superwinch winches are okay. I noticed that on superwinch x9 they rate the stall at 10,900 lbs. Does this mean that it should pull harder than a warn 9000 or is it just bs? What about ramsey winches?
Dan |
Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco)
| | Posted on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 02:18 pm: |
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I don't think many people here have tested the X9 against the Warn side by side. My seat of the pants guess is that the X9 pulls a little more. Just a guess but that may be why Superwinch provides heavier power cables than the Warns. I think the Warn comes with 4ga while the Superwinch comes with 2ga. I would use 0/0 for the install though. I'm sure someone here with a Warn 9000 can correct me if I'm wrong. |
Barry
| | Posted on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 06:27 pm: |
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Dan,
I run the Superwinch X9 on a TJM from my DSII.
Not sure the increased stall load (Vs. Warn)is worth debating. Use a pulley block if circumstances, or the sound of a straining winch motor, cause you to question the ability of your winch.
Superwinch sold me because they had the intelligence to design a roller-fairlead that matched drum length... a feature which is appreciated on every pull.
I readily admit I am on solenoid set number two. Apparently (As explained to me by a Superwinch tech) reversing directions while the cable is moving shortens solenoid life. Since using their recommendation, I have not heard the dreaded "click click".
-Barry |
danielcovaciu
| | Posted on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 03:05 pm: |
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I plan on getting a pulley block and always having it in the truck. With a block an 8000lb winch becomes a 16K winch. However most seem to think (and I wont argue) that 8000 is too small. Do people actually get in situations where they need 24,000 lbs of pulling force that they get from a warn 12000 with a pulley? Or does it have more to do with the fact that the pulley makes things really slow so people try to avoid using one? Just some more questions from someone new to this game.
Thanks, Dan |
James F. Thompson Jaime (Blueboy)
| | Posted on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 03:11 pm: |
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this might interest you:
"Warn M10,000 for sale. Excellent condition, used twice. Cable in very good condition. I had it mounted on my ARB bumper on my IIA 109 - whatta beast!
Power cables cut to about 2' to accommodate quick disconnect plug. Obviously includes remote and hook.
Price: $840, buyer pays shipping
Location: Northern Virginia
Thanks for looking, Jon"
from Rovers North for sale bbs.
have same one with an ARB bumper on my RR.
Jaime |
Kyle
| | Posted on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 04:47 pm: |
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Al that superwinch is a flaming hunk of shit.. I wish I had a quarter for each time I have seen one of those stall under light ass loads...
Kyle |
muskyman
| | Posted on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 04:53 pm: |
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kyle you lose...I stayed outa this one longer |
Kyle
| | Posted on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 04:55 pm: |
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LOL,,, oops , I mean , That aint funny!!
Kyle |
Kyle
| | Posted on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 04:56 pm: |
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Daniel , the flaw in your logic is that you are buying the advertised ratings on the winches...
Kyle |
muskyman
| | Posted on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 05:01 pm: |
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the other flaw is that a double line takes more then double time to set...when someone is sinking fast I want to run the cable out push a button and be done.
double line has you digging in tool boxes looking for the block pulling twice the cable out and then waiting double the time to make the same pull. |
Kyle
| | Posted on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 05:04 pm: |
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Limits your pulls , makes things more complicated , increases the odds for accident , blah blah blah..
Kyle |
danielcovaciu
| | Posted on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 06:50 pm: |
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Thanks all for hanging in there with me and my dumbass questions.
So Kyle, your saying that the superwinch x9 is even more off a POS than the warn 9000? If it is than thats something I want to know. I dont want to spend hundreds of my hard earned dollars on a POS winch that "stalls under light ass loads"
Kyle, which winch do you think I should get for all around use ( I dont need to winch my way to the artic 100' at a time)?
Muskyman, which winch do you think I should get for all around use?
I really value everyone's expert (compared to me) opinions.
Thanks, Dan |
danielcovaciu
| | Posted on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 07:28 pm: |
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Does the superwinch husky 10 fit in the arb non-airbag bumper? I remember hearing good things about this winch. |
Barry
| | Posted on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 08:31 pm: |
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I wish I had a quarter for each time Kyle bashed Superwinch, and for everytime my Superwinch did NOT "stall under light ass loads", or even heavy ass loads.
Kyle & company - I'll save you the trouble of a reply: "then you coul buy a real winch.. blah, blah,blah,blah".
-Barry |
Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco)
| | Posted on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 10:57 pm: |
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I'll second Barry. I've seen a Superwinch stall once.... and in that case the winch wasn't getting enough juice. It had the wrong size cable for the run to the battery and the battery was questionable (replaced two months later). I've also seen more dead Warns than Superwinch but then there are also more Warn winches in this area.
Dan, either way I think most will agree that the "i" winches from warn aren't the way to go. But if you like the "W" then go for it. As I said the 8274 is a nice winch. But in my opinion and in the situations I've been in speed hasn't been an issue. I would rather be safe and have a slow winch than get into a hurry and do bodily or property damage. But I've never had a situation where my vehicle was sinking either.
Musky - by the way you talk about the double line run you sound like you don't even use a tree strap. But I've sure you're kind to the tree and your cable by using one.
I keep my pully, tree strap, shackles, remote and gloves in a bag that sits by the passenger footwell when I go out so it's handy. If you hook the cable to the bumper and spool out the cable with the pulley attatched you don't waste much time if any. And where I wheel I don't have to go far to get an anchor so the double line helps me spool out more cable so my winch won't stall because I've anchored off after the first layer. |
Smoking
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 12:07 am: |
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I wish I had a quarter for every winch bash i've read on DWeb then i could buy a real one a "http://www.aussieropewinch.com/" |
danielcovaciu
| | Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 08:41 pm: |
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There's nothing intresting at the top of the board lately, I thought I'd bump this one back up.
For a while there it seemed like a warn m12000 would be right. No one ever complains that their winch is to big, right? But then I went on the warn sight and noticed that these things weigh 135lb. That plus the arb bumper is about all that ome HD springs can handle. This seems awful heavy for something I'll probably only use a few times a year.
A xd9000 only weight like 80lbs but then all my fellow disco webers will make fun of me when I post pictures of my "little smoker."
Lets have a nice flaming winch debate to spice up the board a little.
Thanks,
Dan |
Gregh
| | Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 11:41 pm: |
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That extra weight isn't necessarily bad when you're clawing up a hill looking for traction.
Isn't this subject getting old? Do a search for "winch".
GregH |
muskyman
| | Posted on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 12:06 am: |
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Quote:Musky - by the way you talk about the double line run you sound like you don't even use a tree strap. But I've sure you're kind to the tree and your cable by using one.
I always use a strap and have for the 20 some years I have owned winches
Quote:I keep my pully, tree strap, shackles, remote and gloves in a bag that sits by the passenger footwell when I go out so it's handy
al,
this is a very very bad practice. heavy objects become projectiles when wheeling, a role over could very easily kill someone when the bag full of recovery equipment hits them in the head.
the reason I have the opinions I do about winches is because I have been there and learned the hard way. if people dont agree with me thats fine do what ever you want...if you want small weak unreliable equipment that is overrated and failure prone and backed purely by marketing bullshit go for it. theres no doubt you will save money . but if you want reliable stuff that wont let you down its gonna cost more and be more complicated to set up . thats just the way it is |
Jack Quinlan (Jsq)
| | Posted on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 02:18 am: |
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HS9500i.
perfect. |
muskyman
| | Posted on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 01:31 pm: |
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Al,
call me a mother hen...but I'm still worried about you with those heavy recovery tools loose in your cab!
thom |
Glenn Guinto (Glenn)
| | Posted on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 02:17 pm: |
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Kyle loves the Mile Marker and Thom would highly recommend the Ramsey! hehehe
-glenn  |
danielcovaciu
| | Posted on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 02:19 pm: |
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Does the hs9500 really get you anything over the xd9000? Its only rated for 500lb more. Also I heard that this winch was really fast, too fast. Anyone with experience using it?
Thanks,
Dan |
muskyman
| | Posted on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 02:23 pm: |
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Glenn,
I had my disco on a axle scale the other day and that heavy ass Ramsey out front might not be such a bad idea.
thom |
Al Oliveira (Offroaddisco)
| | Posted on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 02:34 pm: |
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Muskyman, thanks for the thoughts. I'm glad to know someone out there is thinking of me. But I do secure the gear before attacking anything that might put me dirty side up. Most of the trails here would take tallent to roll your vehicle but I've seen it done. I have actually thought about getting some webbing with a clip of some kind to anchor the gear in the footwell.
The one time I went out with my winch gear in the back where it should be I was ass deep in mud and had no way of opening the door without letting in alot more water. I managed to climb over the back seats and pass along my gear out the window to someone on dry land to hook up the tree strap. |
thom mathie (Muskyman)
| | Posted on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 03:07 pm: |
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I.v done the big climb over a few times
bandwidth alert...think its about time I buy that next DVD |
Carter Simcoe (Carter)
| | Posted on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 04:30 pm: |
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You need an air boat |
Tom Rowe
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 02:31 pm: |
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You should buy the Ramsey Platinum 9000 I have to sell ;-)
Seriously, all this stuff about so-and-so winch is a piece of crap is pretty much hogwash IMO. If the winchs were pieces of crap, the company would soon be out of business. I have and have used all kinds of winches, PTO, Electric, Hydraulic. My Warn 8274 is still going strong after nearly 30 years on my various Rovers, pulling vehicles, stumps, skidding logs, loading deuce and 1/2 frames on a flatbed....on and on. My Koenig PTO has done similar duty for even longer. My ramsey RE10000 does just fine on my Disco.
When it comes to winches, IMO, the user is the biggest factor on it being a good winch or not. BTW, snatch blocks add some additional risks, but reduce other risks, so a blanket statement is misleading to novices.
One of my biggest complaints about *all* electric winches I've seen is that the power cables are undersized. Most, of a size to go on a Rover, will draw in the neighborhood of 300amps nearing full load. The higher the amerage for a given cable size, the more voltage drop you have, and the more you risk the winche's motor being damaged or trashed even. A good rule of thumb is no more than 1/2% volt drop over the length of the feed. I've always based my winch installs on this and sized the cable accordingly, figuring the draw at stall, because on heavy loading (which translates to the highest amp draw) is where I *really* want my winch's full power. Also, use weldng cable, not battery cable. Although minor, size for size welding cable will have less voltdrop (more copper surface area) and also be easier to route. Don't forget your ground cable too.
For those who wonder about my opinions on winches, it comes from years spent as a rigger and as a logger/skidder operator. Not to mention over 30 years off-roading.
Sorry for the long post, but seeing BS comments about a person's personal choices for a vehicle or accessory get's old after a while. |
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