| Author |
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David
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 12:18 pm: | 
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Hi,
This is sort of a subset of a previous thread. I have been experienceing the following symptom on a 95RR LWB with Air conversion to Coils. I've had some very helpful suggestions on what my symptom might be but I just wanted to make sure before I bring it in for what might be a costly repair...just in case it's just something most experience in their RR LWB.
When I make a slow fairly tight circle,I can feel a pulsating type feeling (sort of in the steering and wheels as though the transfer case is alternating between winding up (like a Locked differential) and then what feels like the unequal torque being relieved....thus feeeling a breaking loose then sticking feeling as one drives the 360 degree circle. It also feels like something is alternating between rubbing and not rubbing against the inside of the tires, although nothing appears to be. I feel this in either direction when making a slow 360 degree circel or semicircle. Before I drive the vehicle again and bring it in for what may be a costly job, I just want to make sure that it somehow isn't felt in other RR LWB vehicles. I do know some other "All wheel Drive vehicles" that make use of Viscous fluid for traction and transfering power, do some strange things when making a tight circle. Any feedback is truly appreciated. Thanks!
David |
John Cinquegrana (Johnc)
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 12:29 pm: |
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steering stop needs to be adjusted.
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David
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 01:14 pm: |
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Hi John
Thank you for your response. I am fairly new to RR. Can the symptoms I've described above occur when the Steering Stop needs adjustment? How does misajustment of this cause the what I am expericing and feelings. When I make a full 360 degree turn I am making sure I am not hitting the end of the steering wheel travel and presume your adjusmnt is somehow related to this? |
perroneford
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 01:29 pm: |
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David,
I've experienced this same sensation in at least 4 RRs. 3 of them being LWB. There is nothing special about LWB in this regard. It's simply a symptom of a failed viscous coupling. Call 2 or 3 dealers, describe the symptom to the service manager and see what they say. I'd bet money they'll tell you the same thing if they are honest.
-P |
David
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 01:51 pm: |
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Hi Perroneford,
I appreciate both your previous response (on the other post) as well as this one and I am certain you're probably correct. The reason I am soliciting opinions was just to make 100% sure that on the rare chance that it might be something else (or even something that most felt on their RR as part of its design). The car if needing this expensive repair would be covered (a large percentage of it) by a non-LR dealer and repairs by a independent garage that doesn't specialize in LR per se. I certainly didn't want the transfer case and associated arts disassembled if by the remote chance it was something else. Then take into account I'm prbably in denial and would love if it turned out to be something minor (like the suggestion of adjusting the steering stop as suggested above. I'm not sure how that would cause the symptoms I've described. OK, lets see if there are is any other feedback as this post continues. Again Perroneford, I truly appreciate your help and suggestion. Thanks! |
Perrone Ford
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 03:32 pm: |
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There's nothing wrong with your steering stops. Leave them alone. Solicit some profesisonal opinions though before you let anyone tear into your truck. I know I would as this repair is going to cost you several hundred bucks.
-P |
John Cinquegrana (Johnc)
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 09:28 pm: |
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David, I am obviously not an expert (as P has indicated) just thought I'd give you some ideas. The reason I said steering stop was because you said "It also feels like something is alternating between rubbing and not rubbing against the inside of the tires, although nothing appears to be. I feel this in either direction when making a slow 360 degree circel or semicircle." That to me sounds like the sterring stops. I am not familiar with the VC since my Rangie is an 88.
Good luck.
John C. |
David
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 11:04 pm: |
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Hi John and Perrone,
Regardless of the advice you or anyone offers, I appreciate it very much and although opinions and theories may vary, thats alright since it's a consencious I'm trying to get. Eventually with the help I've received here I'm sure the cause will narrow down.
I have spoken to someone locally who after I decibed my symptoms, immediately concured that it was almost certainly the Viscous coupling or at the vetry least, something with the transfer case.
It appears the part will have to be ordered and installed, hopefully before the end of the week.
** Am I correct in assuming that the Viscous coupling is towards the rear of the vehicle? Also does anyone know if during and after installation, does anything that has to do with the steering need adjustment or "goes out"..or is the steering and components left alone and everything will be the same as before installing the Viscous coupling. So far the RR tracks perfectly with no vibration of any kind and hope it remains that way. Thanks again and I'll keep evryone posted. |
perroneford
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 07:46 am: |
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John C.,
If he had modified his tires or something similar, I could see the steering stops being a possible issue, but in this case, it appears not. If you want to feel what he is talking about, just go lock your TCase in Hi-lock and do a donut. You'll feel the scrubbing as the outside front tire struggles to go faster than the rear axle.
Someone elsewhere described this as scrubbing between the two tires on the front of the truck but that is incorrect since these trucks have open diffs. The problem is that you are trying to force the front and rear axles to move at the same speed but the front's have further to go in a tight turn.
David, If you'd like to buy yourself some time, you can remove the front driveshaft. It's 8 nuts and bolts. This will disconnect the front axle and keep you from damaging anything further. The bolts are 13mm or 9/16" (mine were screwed up when I got the truck so I don't know which is correct for the originals) and it's a pretty easy deal to get them off. The front driveshaft will have to come off anyway for the viscous replacement so you could save yourself some labor cost.
-P |
David Gage (Davidg)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 08:04 am: |
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Does it occur in both directions, my guess is a front CV is going bad. Had this happen for a while in my 93 LWB untill it finally gave up. But was still able to drive it (in 4wd) for 120 miles home. Then I changed the damaged CV and all was well. Symptoms were very similar to yours, a clunk clunk clunk around tight turns at slower speeds, and the noise and feel was transmitted through the steering. |
Arthur S. Au (Arthur)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 08:08 am: |
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David,
I am far from an expert here (as I've asked Perrone many questions myself). I tried out the tight turns for you last night. I did not experience, in either direction, what you do. I did notice that my power steering sorta made some on and off louder to moderate hissing sound due to almost locked turning. And that sound was jerky. But after a few years of ownership, I know my truck is working fine.
Do you notice any unusual/uneven wear in your tyres? I've tried a Disco I with diffs locked on dry road surface - the chopping and rubbing sensation is very obvious with just moderate turns. I suppose yours could just be partially seized.
Did you mention how many miles is on your truck?
If I were you, I'd make sure my power steering and transfer case fluid levels are good and swivel ball fluids have been renewed and topped up and re-test. Does the transfer case operate fine in Low range?
Do you know if your CV joints are on their way out, you can hear clunking noises from the front wheels on tight turns? Have you jacked up each front corner and rocked the wheel at the 12-6 o'clock and 3-9 o'clock positions? Any excess movement? While at it, might as well remove and remount each wheel to make sure it was mounted correctly. I'm just throwing (no cost) things out that come to mind.
I have another test for you. At highway speeds, if you suddenly lift off the accelerator, do you hear any clicking sound coming from under the Hi/Lo selector or behind the cupholder? If you do, then it's likely the Morse chain in the transfer case is stretched and should be replaced (megabucks). Maybe that contributes to what you're experiencing, somewhat?
If you haven't yet, visit:
http://www.bushducks.com/landrover/landrover.htm
to find an experienced rover mechanic around you. If you're paying, better off getting it done correctly. |
David
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 09:15 am: |
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Thanks for all the responses and let me address each, one at a time:
Perrone: If it comes right down to it and I have to drive the the RR any more (before repair), I'll find and remove the 8 bolts..Thats a good suggestion!
** Since the front driveshaft has to come of in order to replace the VC, will any steering components have to be re-adjusted or aligned after the installation or is the steering alignment and other steering adjustments left alone and remain pretty much as they were prior to the CV install???
___________
David: Yes, the symptoms occur (exactly as you described) regardless of the dirction I'm going when making a "donut" (tight turn). When going straight or making wide turns, I really don't feel anything unusal. I don't yet actually hear a "clunk clunk" but I can feel the alternating scrubbing or resistance and then the breaking free feeling as I make this circel. Maybe it's in it's early stages, I don't know. The vehicle has 76,000 on it.
**One other symptom I have not yet mentioned in these disussions is when I put the vehicle in reverse (from a dead stop), it feels a bit like I have the parking break on partially. It may just be my perception or maybe it has to do with the CV problem.
_______________
Arthur: The tires (stock Michelins) are brand new when I purchased the truck recently, so there is no excessive wear yet on any tire. The symptoms happen even when the steering wheel is turned quite a bit before before reaching the end of it's travel (in either direction), so I don't get to the point of hearing the hissing of the steering pump.
I don't hear any noise from the front wheels when making a turn, so that at least may be a good sign that no further damage was done (other than the CV going bad.
**The low gear lever has quite a bit of difficulty going into "low" and I suspect the linkage needs lubricating. I am in neutral when moving into low gear If the selenoid was bad, I wouldn't probably e able to move the lever at all..but as it is, it takes a great deal of presure on the lever and many tries to finially move the low gear lever forward. I haven't done much in low gear yet. Jacking up the car to examine for excess play is a good idea and I'll try and do this prior to bringing it in.
Finially at highway speeds I've never noiced any sound coming from the low gear lever or behind the cupholders if I suddently lift my foot off the accelerator...but then again I wasn't trying to listen for such a sound previously. I guess if it was there, I would notice it. I'll listen for it the next time the vehicle is driven
____________
To Everyone:
I'll try some of the low cost suggestions, but it looking pretty much like the CV at the very least will need replacing. At least part of the cost wil be deferred by the dealer whom I purchased from (non-LR).
** Still trying to figure out whether any of the steering componenets (alighment rods etc.) will need to be touched or readjusted during or after the new CV is installed since I will then have to request or bring it to a qualified shop for this. If anyone knows if stering adjustments will have to be redone after a new CV is installed, please let me know.
Thanks once again everyone for your input!! |
David
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 09:21 am: |
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Just to add and answer one question (among many) to my post directly above, Perrone has kindly let me know (on a differnt posted discusion) that the steering and it's components are not affected or disturbed during the installation of a new CV. One less thing to worry about. Thanks! |
perroneford
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 02:31 pm: |
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David,
Just something I noticed in your post. PLEASE do not confuse the CV (Constant Velocity joint which is in the front axles) with the VC (Viscous Coupling) which is in the transfer case. That could make for a very bad mistake when ordering parts! 
-P |
mike dee
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 05:02 pm: |
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the suspense is driving me nuts. i mean how long has this been going on for? man get the problem fixed before you bust something. it seems as though you been driving in circles for weeks trying to find out what is wrong. simple mate , viscous coupler is shot. and you have more than likely streatched the transfer box chain. put it this way. if your driving this rover to and from work your going to do mega damage. if it hasent even moved and is parked, then flat bed it to the mechanic asap. cause driving around in circles, tromping on the acellerator at highway speeds listening for clicking noises is not the propper way to fault diagnose your problem. speng the money to have a qualified rover mechanic go over your truck and fix your problem! there is no dollar store fix here, and that is what it seems as though your trying to do. what do these transfer cases cost to replace $3000.00 or something? i sugest to stop driving in circles ; drive straight to land rover get it fixed and be a happy camper before you hear this sound, CRUNCH , MUNCH SQEAK BREAK BUSTED MEATAL GRIDING KLINK AND TORN . |
David
| | Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 10:02 am: |
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Hi (I'll respond to the two posts above):
Perrone:
I keep typing "CV" by mistake when I meant to type "VC"...but I definitely know we are talking about the Viscous Coupler (VC)> I appreciate yourmentioning this, just in case I was "sleeping at the wheel", so to speak. There is an additional question below my response to Mike regarding the Transfer Box chain in regard to something Mike mentioned in his post. Any thoughts? Thanks!
Mike Dee:
I just recently purchased the RR had not driven it but approx. 500 miles (mostly straight ahead highway) before I started to noticed the symptoms when I happen to make a U-turn. After feeling the symptom, I tried driving in a tight circle 1 1/2 times and then knew at that point I better part the RR perminantly until the problem was fixed. Unfortunately how long it has gone on before with the previous owner, I honestly don't know, but up to know I did not hear any untold unusal sounds at all coming from the transfer case, so I hope it's just the VC.
The moment I was aware something wasn't "right", I immediately stopped driving it, so all my discussion and descriptions in this post were beased on my recollections, not taking the RR out for a spin each time to try something new out. I wasn't about to make matters words. The reason I wanted to absolutely be sure it was the VC Coupler, is part of the cost of the repair wil be paid for the seller and I had to come "armed" with some concrete facts that it was the VC. otherwise I could see a situation developing where we'd go round and round discussing what might be the problem. Everyones here here made a conviencing argument that it was the VC and I now could make an iron clad case that it was. Unfortunately although I always use a LR qualified mechanic, in this case I have little choice, so I wanted to make sure the correct part VC is being replaced and problem addressed.
** (Additional question) I do have an additional question. You mentioned the transfer box chain may be stretched. I think the mechanic is going to replace the VC without removing the Transfer box (thats just the feeling I get). Obviously only a detailed inspection could determine what condition the "Chain" is in. Are there any obvious symptoms of a stretched chain I would feel or should look for once the VC is replaced..or aI would have felt or heard during the time the VC was siezed (before this repair)? The reason I am asking is if it's possible that few miles were put on after the VC went bad and limited damage was done and that only the VC needs replacing and the chain is probably alright?
What are the symptoms of a stretched chain? |
David
| | Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 09:41 am: |
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I owe everyone here a big thanks (and also some beer of course....O.K. Perrone you deserve a whole case!) who posted their "very" helpful comments, tips, suggestions etc. to my RR problem (stated above). Without having your help, it might have turned into a "fishing expedition" and the issue not getting resolved as quickly as it did and end up doing more costly damage. It was as everyone suggested the Vicous Coupler. A new one was ordered and installed and everything appears to be fine..no more "scrubbing" or "pulsating" during tight turns. Now onto the other niggling problems with the cruise control etc., but thats for another post. Thanks once again!
(I'll duplicate this message in the other post which discussed my VC problem too.) |
perroneford
| | Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 10:33 am: |
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Glad you got it sorted out. That's why we are here. I can't help you with the cruise (mine hasn't worked in a year and I'm too lazy to work on it) but if you have other issues, don't hesitate to ask.
David, you may have some fun poking around my web page (decent technical section) at:
www.spanishtrailrovers.com
-P |
John Cinquegrana (Johnc)
| | Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 10:36 am: |
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Check the hose going into the black plunger looking thing (on the driver side by the plenum). Check your fuse and make sure the CC button is on.
BTW, mine isn't working aither and I got tired of trying to fix it. |
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