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KJ
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 12:31 am: | 
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While I'm being all serious tonight, does anyone listen to BBC radio? This week they have been reporting (I saw an article reporting the same in the Washington Post, too) that the rebels waging war in the Democratic Republic of The Congo are committing some hideous atrocities. Perhaps the worst of the worst are the reports of cannabalism. In short, they are eating the freakin' Pygmies! In the many thousands of years the Pygmies have existed in their forests they have never been forced to flee until now. Last night it was reported that there are dead victims and LIVE victims of cannabalism. Some Pygmies have had body parts removed and are forced to WATCH as others EAT their flesh! Some captives are forced by the rebels to roast and ingest human flesh against their will.
On the Friday night before 9/11 went down, Ted Koppel was starting what was supposed to be a five part series on Nightline about the wars in The Congo, and some of the other troubles on the African continent. Several MILLION people have been slaughtered in the past few years in Africa, and yet we hear almost nothing of it in America. It's FAR worse than Bosnia ever was. I watched Friday night and Monday night, and then of course the events of Tuesday 9/11 permanently preempted the rest of the reports. Just wondering if anyone else is paying attention to Africa....
Karen  |
Michael Villanueva (Michael)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 12:46 am: |
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Yes. Daily. |
Dean Chrismon (Chrismonda)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 01:53 am: |
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Yeah I was reading some magazine my girlfriend had about some really bad shit in South Africa. The story was about a woman who had left her infant with a baby sitter. Later when she returned home she found the baby sitter passed out in the yard with beer bottles. Entered the house and saw her child on the floor, well went to check if she needed a diaper change the baby started screaming; she then noticed that where the childs vagina was is now a gaping hole. She had been raped and this article said that this atrocity is the norm. I read that this is going on because of people have been told that having sex with a virgin will heal AIDS. People have been arrested taking cash so complete strangers can have sex with their kids. So yeah this is a fucked up world. Its truly sad |
Pete B (Downunderdisco)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 03:58 am: |
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No oil in Africa though is there...... |
KJ
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 08:03 am: |
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Pete, that, and the population in the affected countries is largely black...I think you got it in one.
Karen |
Paul Clay
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 10:18 am: |
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No oil in Africa? That must be news to British Petroleum.
http://www.bp.com/downloads/837/global_oil_section.pdf
Per BP, at the end of 2000, "proved reserves" of crude oil in Africa accounted for 7.1% of global "proved reserves" as compared to 6.1% for North America. I guess the US, Canada and Mexico must not have any oil either...
Granted, there is some nasty stuff going on in Africa, but oil is not the issue.
Cheers,
Paul |
Mark & Bev Preston (Markp)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 12:38 pm: |
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I've listended to the BBC for many years now. There's a lot of things you won't hear about in the liberal mainstream media. Doesn't fit their agenda. The internet is changing the landscape slowly. If your looking for far ranging news, good discussions and facts try http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/browse?ao=0
Do a search on Congo and you will find articles from Times of India and discussion on same.
The front page is http://www.freerepublic.com
While it is a conservative forum, the participants are international and ideas and articles are challanged. You'd be amazed at some peoples thoughts and positions.
Africa has lots of problems. But it's not oil. Its cultural.
Mark |
KJ
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 01:08 pm: |
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Paul,
I can't speak for Pete, but my point is we tend to go to war more quickly when oil is at stake &/or the victims in the war are lighter rather than darker. It took us a long time to get involved in Bosnia, but there was a LOT of reporting in the U.S. until we finally did get involved. The situation in Africa, or perhaps more correctly, the various situations in Africa, have cost FAR, FAR more lives already than ever were lost in Bosnia for example, and yet we hear almost nothing in the U.S. press, and certainly we hear nothing of our government weighing in. Literally MILLIONS of lives have already been lost in the past five years in Africa, but does the average American have a clue?
Mark, liberals think the U.S. media is conservative, and conservatives think the media is liberal. I think one of the problems in our media is that we tend to focus on the things that more directly and immediately affect the U.S. Foresight and a full world-view are missing. Africa is the sleeping giant and the immense problems, as well as immense potentials, will HUGELY influence in the entire world. We turn our backs at our own peril. Yes, the problems are largely cultural, but you miss the point about oil. I don't think the oil reserves there are being tapped as they are in the Mid-East (correct me if I'm wrong), or the U.S. might be paying more attention. Once more, in so MANY ways, we are short-sighted.
Karen |
Mark & Bev Preston (Markp)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 02:19 pm: |
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Karen,
Actually there was a study completed not too long ago that showed the media to be significantly liberal and primarily voted Democratic. The reason that liberals think the U.S. media is conservative is that they are losing control of the media. The media is no longer the N.Y. Times, LA Times, ABC, NBC or CBS. I can't remember the last time I watched the news from any of the networks. I use to watch Ted Koppel but it's been years since I have. The internet has significantly impacted the U.S. media. They no longer control the message. They are challanged on web sites like FreeRepublic. Internet news can come from anywhere.
As for oil or the color of skin, I think your missing the big picture. Todays conflicts are idealogical. WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and Israel were/are idealogical battles. The Middle East conflict started about 2000 years ago, give or take a few hundred. Iraq is about a dictator that threatens his own people and kills his enemies with chemical weapons. They also enable terrorism throughout the region. Terrorism cannot exist without the support of states. The big picture is the conflict between Islam and all other religions. September 11th is just one event in this conflict. The Russian conflict is rooted in Islamic radicals. The Phillipines, Bali, and even Africa. You will find that many of the African conflicts are between Islamic fundamentalist and mostly Christians. In the last several years there has been a significant increase in Christian missionaries. Bringing Christianity to these areas has resulted in idealogical conflicts and war. And Yes, they fight wars to the death. Africa is mostly 3rd world technology so wars are fought hand-to-hand. Many die. Think back to the medieval days before technology.
With or without oil, the U.S would still be involved in this region of the world, September 11th would still have occured and Africa would still be in conflict, fighting many idealogical battles and still enslaving people for the benefit of a few. We can't be the worlds policeman, but when someone punches you in the face you have to fight back. |
Paul Clay
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 03:53 pm: |
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Karen,
The intent of my initial message was to point out the fallacy of the “No oil in Africa though is there......” comment. You seem to suggest that there is a long standing pattern of racial discrimination by the US Federal Government against countries comprised of people with darker skin. You may be correct. However, I am not convinced.
An additional assertion of yours seems to be that the US goes to “war” more quickly when oil is at stake. Depending upon how you define “war” and the time frame in question, you are either guaranteeing your result by narrowly defining these two parameters, or you are patently incorrect. If “war” is defined as a military action with a congressionally designated act of war and the time frame is defined at the past ~13 years, then only one instance of war fits the bill. I suspect that most people would agree that this instance, the initial Persian Gulf War was partially motivated by oil. However, another view of war is any military action. Most recent and not so recent military actions (other than the Persian Gulf War) without a declaration of war have been unrelated to oil.
Regarding the oil reserves in Africa, yes they are being tapped. Algeria, Libya and Nigeria all have economies based significantly upon petroleum. In Algeria, oil is a $12B annual industry. In Libya, oil is a $13B annual industry. In Nigeria, oil is a $21B annual industry. I don’t know about you, but $46B doesn’t exactly sound like chump change. These values are in spite of domestic armed conflict and internatioanl embargoes. The lack of attention on the problems in Africa does not seem to be based upon oil, although oil certainly is a tidy little excuse.
Yes, many people in Africa have died in armed conflict. Yes, the traditional media in the US lacks coverage. Do most residents in the US know or care about problems outside of the US? Probably not. Should we be more aware? I think that you and I would both agree that the national “we” should be more aware. However, who are you and I to twist the arms or minds of others into being more aware? Even if the national “we” were more aware, would it be our position to do anything? Does might make right? If we have the means and our moral convictions, is that sufficient to justify action? Do our moral convictions hold veto over those of other cultures?
Nail me where I’m wrong. ;-)
Cheers,
Paul |
Pete B (Downunderdisco)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 05:06 pm: |
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ok, for clarification.
Does the state of Africa or its natives directly affect the US economy or oil supply?
There is all sorts happeneing the world over and has been for years. The west doesnt get involved and start spruiking about terrorism and human rights unless it has a vested interest.
The US lost how many people on 9/11? Australia was affected too more directly than ever before with the Bali bombing. And werent we all up in arms?! Politicians suddenly on the TV saying what a disgraceful act it was and how they cant believe this sort of thing can still happen. Now those incidents cant be played down but the fact remains the west overall has lost very few people thanks to terrorism compared to places like Africa and the middle east where bombings like the one in Bali are everyday occurrences.
Has anyone remembered that we started out looking for Osama bin Laden? Slow news now isnt it what with the threat of war and all in Iraq. Just as well too cause theres some tough questions to be asked about just where the hell he is and whether anyone gives a fat rats arse anymore now that finishing a job that should have been done 11 years ago is back on the agenda.
Human rights is a fine pursuit if you actually pursue them all the time instead of just when someone steps on your tail for a change.
Yes the north coast of Africa has a huge oil industry but while the oil supply itself and surrounding western folk are safe, they can rape and pillage each other all they want.
Excuse me if Im a little nervous. Afterall, if anyone wants to simultaneously wipe out a very large member of the US naval fleet (the Abraham Lincoln) and take out a city thats remote enough to make a point but not kill too many people, theyre going to start with my town. Doh.
Pete,
Perth, Western Australia. The most remote capital city in the world.
Not paranoid or anything.... |
Mark & Bev Preston (Markp)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 05:27 pm: |
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Pete,
Your not the only target in the world. Here's my take - Yes, Osama has been around for many years and we have had many chances but not an administration that had enough guts to address the issue. While Osama may think he is helping out the Islamic world, I think he is just speeding up its demise. There are many more people today that understand what is going on, thanks to him. That won't be good for the islamic world |
Kennith P. Whichard III (Kennith)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 05:44 pm: |
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Hmmm...
I have friends who have fought in the Eritrian rebellion from Ethiopa. I once knew a former prince from Congo personally. I have heard the stories from both sides.
Wars and the political motives in the African continant are complicated. One cannot simply enter and raise both the rod of control and the writ of compassion. The power in these countries is so far removed from the citizens that they may as well be on their own, regardless of their current form of government. This is largely due to the remotness of many towns and villages, as well as the lack of any maintained transportation or communication structure.
To enter into a conflict in Africa with one objective is to alienate an entire continant.
I am not being arumentative, just issueing my .02
Cheers,
Kennith |
TPH (Snowman)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 06:20 pm: |
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Pete B-
Is there a general consensus in your town concerning the U.S.? Please be blunt.
S- |
Mark & Bev Preston (Markp)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 06:40 pm: |
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Pete,
Looks like your SAS troops are ready. Actually a very good idea. Quick and quiet.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/824966/posts
Mark |
Todd W. McLain (Ganryu)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 07:07 pm: |
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Got BBC World on the TV right now, watching them report on the peacenik's in Washington. What a bunch of gobbers.
As to the US not doing nothing in Africa bacause there's no oil (or anything else) that we want, I would wright it up as a bunch of poppy-cock. Does nobody remember late '92 when many of us were put into Somalia to help distribute food. That sure as hell had nothing to do with oil! That is one place on this planet I wish I could put out of my mind. Heck, just remembering the smell of that place turns my stomach on edge.
IMHO, the US can do nothing in Africa except lose troops and cause hate and discontent, so why should we even try. Any money contributed will just find it's a way to the dictators as well as any other aid we may send (food, arms, etc). IYAM, the Africa problem can't be fixed without educating the population in mass. This is something that will probably never happen, though, given the tribal ways of a large portion of the populace. This is going to sound horrible, but, I sometimes wonder if maybe the first world shouldn't cut off all of their aid to Africa and take a more Darwinian approach. Without aid, you would see a dramatic drop in the population (famine, aids, etc.) and would leave you with a partially educated population with which to rebuild the continent.
As to the war on Iraq, I would have to agree with the President, it's not about oil. It's about the relavancy of the UN and keeping WoMD from the hands of the likes of Osama. It is not about finishing what wwe started in 91, since we did finish. 91 was about securing the Saudi border and expelling Iraq from Kuwait, which we did. If 91 was about oil, it would have failed miserably, seeing how oil from that region was severly curtailed due to limitations on Iraq's exports plus the several hundred burnning well-heads the Iraq torched on their way out. To this day, fire crews are still putting those fires out.
I apologize in advance for any misspellings. Somes subjects really touch a nerve with me and make me hammer at the keyboard like a madman. |
Todd W. McLain (Ganryu)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 07:10 pm: |
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BTW, Pete, your not the only target. I live on a 62mile long island that holds 45,000 U.S. troops and is well within missle range of North Korea. |
KJ
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 11:23 pm: |
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I think many people think they are targets. My bro who lives in Maine feels his area is a primary target. As I sit near Washington, D.C., that seems silly to me, but we share the same concerns, which I think is a good thing. Perhaps it's going to take a large-scale paranoia to focus people.
The African situation is immensely complex and can't be limited to attention to only two or three aspects. I hope that there ARE more news sources that accurately report, and that many more people than I fear are paying more attention than I think. I'm encouraged by this small conversation here. No one I know in real life is remotely aware of what is going on, and I feel woefully under-informed even though I try to pay attention. Sometimes I feel the more I hear the less I know. Much like the accountants cooking the books in the corporate world, it's tough to know enough to know what is being left unsaid, blatantly lied about or hideously spun in the reporting. I also harbor hopes that there are plans beyond my knowing that are being implimented to try and help end some of these atrocities, but I fear that's not the case.
Karen |
Todd W. McLain (Ganryu)
| | Posted on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 12:48 am: |
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Karen, I will agree with you that the situation in Africa is immensely complex, I will put forward that there is a single root cause: education, or lack there of. Until the population can be educated to see that whay they are doing to themselves. The problem is, as things stand now, there is no way to educate the population due to both it's size and it's current lack of education. The population supports a 2-bit dictator and/or warlord because it doesn't know any better. The 2-bit dictator and/or warlord wants to keep the population un-educated because he/she/it knows that un educated population will bring about his/her demise.
So, the big question is, what can or should we do about it? My answer is: nothing. If we try to send forces into an African situation, they are going to get shot at by all the sides (Trust me on this one. When we were there, nobody respected what we were trying to do.) Currently, we (we meaning the populace of the US, it's govt, as well as most of the first world) try to throw food, medicine, and millions of dollars at the problem, but what good does it do? I think the answer to that question could probably be based on the BBC news broadcast you were listening to.
Frankly, before Somalia, I would have been the type of person to send money and such to orginizations like C.A.R.E., World Food Aid, and the like. Afterwords, however, is another story. |
Pete B (Downunderdisco)
| | Posted on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 01:47 am: |
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Snowman,
Well, there is really no unified voice for or against. There is the usual vocal minority in inflatables milling around crying into their inadequate loud-halers at the Captain of a ship that could capsize them just by sounding its horn. There are people who feel reassured by its presence. There are market gardeners and store owners who love it cause resupplying that mother means buying in BULK and it goes straight into the coffers of our town and its people. The girls get all misty eyed and incoherant when 6000 sailors lob desperate to empty their wallets and bollocks. The young blokes just roll their eyes and cunningly point the unsuspecting gits in the direction of the nearest gay club when they stop you to ask where to go to have a good time. Our idea of a joke. Having said that theyre real friendly and will randomly make conversation with you in a club so sometimes we drag 'em around on the town with us.
Erm...dunno. There is no real "anti yank" sentiment that I can see. I DO think many people are against action being taken without UN support. Many would see that as America wading in and throwing its weight around to get its own way and as fairly arrogant.
Hey you cant please all of the people all of the time can you? My family actually voulenteered to have a couple of sailors from the Enterprise stay with us for their shore leave about 10 years ago. They were top guys, we had a huge laugh and the USS Enterprise cap they gave dad gets pride of place behind the bar. The ship gets heaps of tourism, specially if they conduct tours of them (which theyre obviously not at the moment). Theyre using some coastline just to our north as bombing practice which some folk are shitty about but its a firing range for our Airforce anyway so I dunno what their beef is.
On reflection I think generally Perth looks forward to having the ships in. Its kind of a big event for our lil' hick town. heh heh.
Its just (in the words of the Gallagher brothers) "the fookin stoodents" that give them a hard time. Apparently if we all write a nice letter asking Saddam to drop his weapons and retire to the carribean to run a sanctuary for white doves, he'll do just that.
But geez an island of 47000 troops in firing range of N. Korea?!
"noah"
"yes lord?"
"how long can you tread water?" |
BW
| | Posted on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 02:25 am: |
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Pete,
You said: "The west doesn't get involved and start spruiking about terrorism and human rights unless it has a vested interest."
Mate, I recommend you gather your facts. The west has been actively involved with stability and support operations all over the world for decades.
Some were successful(Kuwait), some were too late(Rawanda), some are still on-going(Bosnia, Korea) and some have went bad(Somalia). These are the ones you know about. These are the ones you've read about in the news. These operations alone represent about a third of the total aid that the west has been involved in during the last two decades.
Sure, in many of these countries the west has had some invested interest, sometimes critical. But who else is going to step up to the plate?
Who would have liberated Kuwait if the west hadn't. Who helped the people of Rawanda? Who helped the people of Somalia? Who is flying the DMZ in Bosnia and Korea right now?
More importantly, if we hadn't . . . where would we be now? Of course we've had some invested interest, but who else is going to do the job? I don't see anyone else in the batters box.
Lastly, KJ . . . insinuating that the U.S. is not aiding Africa because of its largely black population is unfounded. Ironically, over the last five years, the U.S. has deployed more special forces into Africa than any other continent. I want dispute that point that more is needed to address their needs, however, believe it or not . . . more is not always welcomed.
BW |
GregH
| | Posted on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 03:07 am: |
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Is there a general apathy for the plight of Africans by American's? Quite possibly. I don't think the lask of coverage by the media is reflective of THEIR apathy but rather OUR apathy. I don't think oil or racism is the reason either.
Historically, Americans are unsupportive of any sustained military action that requires our troops to be at risk unless a there is a real percieved threat to our borders or those of our allies.
Our involvement in Bosnia was as part of a UN/Nato contingent. Bosnia and the Balkan conflict is not too far from the borders of our NATO allies. Not many losses for the US there.
Somalia is a good example of UN/US involvement (read policeman) in an internal, tribal conflict in which the cost in US lives started growing and American support evaporated. Unfortunately some good men had to die for that to become clear...
So who's ready to strap on an M16 or M4 carbine and die trying (probably unsuccessfully) to save the pygmies or other tribal war victims? Anyone ready to bury their husband, wife, son or daughter?
What is it going to take for those protesting going to war in Iraq for it to be worth fighting for? 5,000? 10,000, 50,000 deaths? There's a thousand ways to attack us and when it happens it may be too late to do anything...
My 2 cents-
GregH |
Rebel Rover
| | Posted on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 07:41 am: |
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What all of these conflicts worldwide have in common is tribalism. Wether it's the Hutus and Tutsies in Rwanda, The Serbs, Turks and Croats in Yugoslavia, or the Pushtus and Uzbecks in Afghanistan. All of these age old conflicts are played out within the confines of artificial geographical boundaries laid out after the fall of modern colonialism. Add opposing religious ideology, sprinkle with conflictiong economic doctrine, and stir with Cold War by proxy, and we have the current geopolitical mess we now face. Does America belong in every conflict worldwide? No. Can we do things to alleviate the suffering of civillians in third world nations and Europe? Possibly. However, as a nation, we have to put our self interest first. Let's face it,the UN is fine and dandy but has led us into conflicts we would otherwise have avoided or taken care of unilaterally. We as a nation can't be all things to all people. Sure we've bungled things in the past and we can be myopic in our world view. However, our "little experiment in Democracy" for the most part has succeeded. Our primary concern should be to preserve it's continuing success. |
KJ
| | Posted on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 11:22 am: |
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BW, I hope you're right.
GregH, nobody has ever asked me what the news organizations should cover. They produce it, we watch what they produce. How can we know about world events if they are not brought to our attention? THEN we can decide if we are apathetic or sympathetic. I think it takes work to find new sources, some that have been mentioned in this thread are new to me and I intend to look into them. I hope that I find that my gut feelings on some of these issues we've been discussing are wrong.
There is no question in my mind that education is key in handling some of these problems. The trouble is education takes time, sometimes several generations, and in the meantime great suffering ensues. Illiteracy, among other methods, has always been used to help maintain control of the populace.
There was a very interesting piece on CBS Sunday Morning this morning about an American woman who regularly travels to China to lead sexual education seminars. Most attendees are doctors. The report was that 70% of the Chinese population is not aware that AIDS can be transmitted through sexual contact. Getting the people more open to talking about such topics is a start, but it was reported that in China most people do not think to talk to their doctors about sex. Premarital sex is very much looked down upon in China, though it is a common occurance. Because the taboo is so strong, young people tend to not use condoms for instance (as they don't always prepare ahead of time), condoms that might help save their very lives. A new ad campaign is beginning to be implemented, with a dancing cartoon condom as the focal point. But education is a tough road everywhere. In this country it's staggering how education seems to wear off or otherwise go unheeded. I know too many pregnant young people, some VERY young, who were "educated", and yet didn't take precautions. Pregnancy is just what you can see, what about those who have contracted HIV or other diseases that they might not even know they have? As always, too often human nature is to live in the moment regardless of the consequences. As a person who tends toward always preparing and planning, it BTSOM how others behave, but it seems that they live their lives differently regardless of the peril they place themselves in.
Karen |
Mark & Bev Preston (Markp)
| | Posted on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 09:12 pm: |
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Karen,
There is success in Africa but you will not hear about in the mainstream press. There is a way to stop AIDs. It's not politically acceptable to liberals.
Sexual Abstinence Behind Uganda's AIDS Success Story
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/825666/posts |
KJ
| | Posted on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 10:52 pm: |
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Mark,
Interesting article. And interesting web site, though hardly without it's own strong slant.....
Karen |
Mark & Bev Preston (Markp)
| | Posted on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 11:27 pm: |
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Karen,
Found FreeRepublic several years ago when it was a lot smaller. While it is conservative, there are libertarians, liberals, and others that I'm not sure where they come from. Unless you get really rude and vulgar, you won't get kicked off, unlike the liberal forum, Democratic Underground. What I like about FreeRepublic is anyone can participate and all ideas or post can and will be challanged. You have better have your facts straight if you post a controversial issue. And the news media gets challanged as well. While most members are U.S, there are many from around the world which adds to the discussions. That is why many news feeds are international, not your U.S. media.
Me, I'm not a Republican and I don't vote straight tickets. Thats only for the idiots. But I have found myself becoming more conservative as I get older. What was it that Churchill said, something like "If your not a liberal when your young you have no heart, If your not a conservative when your older then you have no brain."
- Mark |
Curtis N (Curtis)
| | Posted on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 02:43 am: |
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Wow - IMHO this has become the most meaningful thread in my observations on Dweb. Set that aside, and I agree with Mark 100% on his last post.
Curtis |
Mark & Bev Preston (Markp)
| | Posted on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 03:57 pm: |
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The correct Churchill quote:
From http://www.quoteworld.org/browse.php?thetext=men,man,male&page=42
"Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has not heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains."
-- Sir Winston Leonard Spenser Churchill (1874-1965), British statesman, prime minister, author |
Willie Joubert (Willie)
| | Posted on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 05:34 pm: |
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Karen,
The only way to see, is to go there.
The only way to help, it to do it yourself.
I am an ex South African, one of over 2milj that has left the coutry since the 94 elections (mostly to give our kids a better chance in life) I have travelled to about 60% of all African countries, both as civilian and in the service. Africa is a huge can of worms....be sure you are ready to get involved before you do.
Choose a spot and start helping, lots of people around the World are talking, debating, some sooth their conscience by sponsoring a child etc. that won't help much but it is a start.
We are involved as a company with a few clinics etc in Africa. Our clients see first hand the issues and they get a good perspective. I am not saying join me on Safari, but get involved on the ground in some way if you can.
Some one mentioned on this board "cut of aid etc" (something along those lines)
BOY oh boy, IF ONLY YOU KNEW WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.....
Have you ever looked a 2 year old, malnutrition-ed, child in the eye's, and then hand them a bread???? You should try it, it might change your views slightly. Have you ever sat at a MacDonalds and see what lands in the garbage, if only we could ship the excess to Africa instead...
In the end, it is all about education, that is if you want to change them.....!!
We should all help a little bit, it might make a big difference.
....and yes, of almost all money donated from here only a small bit ever reach the child on the ground. Get directly involved if you can.
Willie |
KJ
| | Posted on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 11:18 pm: |
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Willie,
Can you tell us more about your experiences? Your first-hand information and impressions would be MUCH appreciated, as well as ideas on ways to truly help. A little help is better than no help at all. Thank you for chiming in and I hope you have time to elaborate.
Karen |
Todd W. McLain (Ganryu)
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 05:54 am: |
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Willie,
I was the one that said "cut the aid" and BOY OH BOY, I KNOW WHAT I AM SAYING. for 2 specific reasons:
1. I saw the aid comeing into port and right off the ship into the hands of the warlords. Not all of it, but I would say at least half. How is that helping? The aid that arrives just ends up being used as a method for controlling the people before they get .... is that really helping them?
2. If an area cannot support a population, is the better answer to continue supporting the growth of that population so that the problem exacerbates itself and is non-ending, or, should we allow a major population decrease, thereby allowing the surviving population to thrive. As I said above, it's a really horrible thing to think about, but, it may end-up being the only viable solution for the continent as a whole.
Personaly, I think the continent will see an extremely large poputalion decrease in the next 5-10 years due to the aids problem. The infection rates are just way too high for it not to happen, even with the limited treatments available.
BTW, while I haven't seen any starving 2 year olds, however, we did run into a lot of starving 10 year olds and up, who would throw the pork based MREs (ham slice, omelete w/ ham) back at us. I really found that one hard to believe. You would think that a starving person would be happy to get any food in general, religion be damned. |
Garth
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 09:03 am: |
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Todd
By accident of birth, most of the people on this Board live within the developed world; we have 3 square meals a day, access to education and the knowledge that our chidren will probably not die before our eyes through starvation or preventable disease. Yet we're judging others in the world from this viewpoint.
I look at my children, who are adopted from another country, and realise that I can give them some things in life which they could not receive if they had not been adopted. Whether this is for the best in their lives I don't know...they can tell me in 30 years time. All I can do is what I think is the best for them now
Any realist knows that foreign aid is abused to the betterment of some people in the country, but, as you say, some gets through. I'm willing to live with that. One live saved is better than none.
I know what you're saying that if a country can't support itself or its inhabitants, it is beholden on that country to remove its population excess or cut down its usage of resources.
We are saying this from the developed world, which uses more than its fair share of the earth's resources to have keep our standard of living. I'm just as hypocritical as anybody else with my 2 cars, my house that's probably big enough to fit four families etc.
However, to get back to a comment that was made way earlier in this thread, can any country in the developed world survive without using oil from other countries to maintain its standard of living? And does this effect the foreign policies of those countries?
Garth |
Mark & Bev Preston (Markp)
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 10:23 am: |
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Oil does influence foreign policy. So does food, natural gas, wood and many other raw materials. A global economy is based on trade and is suppose to raise the standard of living of a country. Some countries invest wisely, some have so much baggage that it is impossible. There are some that want to maintain the status quo and there are some that want to go backwards.
The current threat against the West is a religious war, with or without oil. It is radical sects of Islam that see this as a thousand year battle. You either convert or die. As for feeding an Islamic nation pork, I don't think so. I read where many years ago that the Phillipine government put down an Islamic uprising very similar to today's. Early in the war they were unsuccessful in putting down the uprising. Later they fought fire with fire. They dipped their bullets in pork and fired away. Needless to say the uprising quickly ended. This is the mindset of todays' Islamic warriors. The sooner we realize this, the sooner this conflict will subside. Ending this conflict will only come when Islam itself understands the problem and reforms.
World trade brings the world closer together. Sometimes this is good, sometimes this is bad.
- Mark |
Mark & Bev Preston (Markp)
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 06:46 pm: |
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Another African disaster, Zimbabwe
"Less than half the land the Zimbabwe government has seized from white farmers to redistribute to landless blacks has been taken up by its new owners ... "
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/826490/posts
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/search?m=any&o=time&s=Zimbabwe
A dictator, in the name of "blacks", confiscates the white farmers lands. The farms were productive and the people were not starving. This was not justice, this was racism. Who is paying the price? The dead white farmers and the to be dead population.
- Mark |
Mark & Bev Preston (Markp)
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 06:48 pm: |
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Forgot to add - no oil here. |
Paul Clay
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 09:11 am: |
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No oil to speak of in zimbabwe, however, they have a large tobacco export sector... ;-)
Cheers,
Paul |
Mark & Bev Preston (Markp)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 09:52 am: |
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Not any more.
- Mark |
Paul Clay
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 11:41 am: |
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Agreed. They had a large Tobacco industry. However, the land grab seems to have put an end to a significnat cash crop. At least in 2001, it accounted for approximately 30% of their export market.
Cheers,
Paul |
Willie Joubert (Willie)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 01:46 pm: |
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Hi Guy's
This is going to be a long one, but I do have first hand experience like Karen mentioned.
Todd, if Africa can't support itself, nor can India and a number of other places, does this mean due to the whole World being over populated we should (if we had the right?) choose who should suffer and die.
Sure I agree, if you can not fend for yourself, but as some one said the World has become so small and trade is international....we "can" help. We can not sit back and not help. Th eWorld is so corrupt, help some one not some organisation with huge "OVERHEADS"
You won't believe this Todd, and sorry for going at you when you said let them starve. I did this because at some stage I was in a military and I had one thing on my mind (as any well trained soldier should) I did not care for others, at least not the ones I was told is the enemy. I too said cut aid to Africa let the fittest survive.
Later when I started doing expeditions all over Africa (exploring is in my blood big time) I saw the other side of the so called "enemy" the inocent sitting by the road side at the mercy of the big greedey corrupt decision makers called the Government of the day. Being on the ground, sometimes with clients, I realized I am part of the whole "RAPE AFRICA PROJECT" (this I like to refer to as the first Worlds number one Hobby !!
Aids is a huge problem and I can see the impact. I think more than half of Africa will die in the next 10 years due to this. I have seen villages get smaller and smaller year after year with members of these families dying off week by week.
It is sad but that is the whole thing with Nature. We see that very clearly in the African bush. When the bush is dry and the rain does not come in November, the animals do not mate. No young are born in Dec/Jan, no new blood the next year. If it rains well in Nov, boy they carry on like you would not believe, come Jan/Feb you just see young ones all over, a great sight. Natures way. We are also subject to this whether we like it or not.
I fail to see the point of your comment about religion Todd...rather damn colonialism...
Garth, good for you man, Karen this is one way, to help. You not helping the World but you are giving a child a chance, you save one it is better than not doing anything. Not all of us are up to this though and I take my hat of to you Garth.
BTW it is said that 75% of the Worlds energy is consumed in North America, and we all know how big the Canadian and Mexican economy's are.....
This brings me back to my comment raping Africa/3rd World. Go to any 3rd World country and see who owns the countries economy, corporations!! based where?, profits going to who?, who's the investors?. Does the local black guy sitting under a tree starving get anything from essentially his herritage..? NO, Its owned by some foreigh country. Deal brokered by a corrupt Government official.
Take your average big Hotel in the third World, owned by? profits going to? yes it does bring money to the local economy but it also corrupts them in more ways than one.
The next tribe on the block ready for slaughter...the Bushman of Namibia. The war in Angola and the SA and Namibia Governments destroyed these peoples way of life, they are starving and their way's (traditions) can not be practices any more. They are nomadic hunters, not any more. These are the people I served with in the military and I know them well. This is where we are trying to help.
On my tours for instance we go to a local clinic (I know the Dr.) and clients get to help first hand, we help in any way we can. Yes we are interfering but the damage has been done, so now we are helping. This is the people we all come from, so say Scientists, the oldest tribes in the Wolrd. They say humanity started here and migrated north to Eurasia, Australia, Northern Europe, North America etc. Apparently DNA proved this...?
The Bushman are not white not black. Facial features are a combination of any nationality on earth today. I feel sorry for them, they are only 3000 strong. Funny enough having survived this long they must have had a social system that works. Would you believe they are the only "tribe" in Africa with NO Aids problem......!!!
The second tribe with less than 1000 members are the Himba, 15 years and they too will be gone.
Mark, some African countries have proven that they can be successfull, I am refering to Botswana for one. They are independant have always been, rich country, they never gave the white mans economy a chance to worm itself into the Government and steal the peoples herritage. They have a ZERO tolerence for coruption, a proud nation. (a pain in the ass to work with, but you have to respect them for what they are and how they do things) The secret, one Tibe only, not a mix of tribes that traditionally could never sit around the same fire, always fighting. This is why South Africa will never work, at least not the the way it going now. Eleven official languages mean eleven tribes, will never work....! throw in coruption and good deal of reversed racism, add a coutry with the biggest aids problem and you have it, the rainbow nation South Africa.
Zimbabwe, was one of the success stories until a few years ago. When they got independance things looked up, the same Robert Mugabe we all hate, with the aid of Ian Smith ( the white ruler before Robert ) as a sort of secret adviser got the conomy going. Then Rob got sivilis, it in his brain now, thus the stupidity...! (fact,not a joke) Tabacco did play a big role but in general farming was big so was tourism. I use to operate a adventure travel bussiness in Africa. Taking tourists all over, exploring as we go. I stayed out of the big Hotels etc, we rather stayed with villages who I knew was trying to get ahead, local supportl, I still do this.
My way of trading with them,I bring clients to show them Africa in a 4x4, to experience the land and its people and in turn we will help your local community inany way possible. This way I know Help/money goes to the man I give it to.
I agree most aid coming to Africa is gone before the people even knew it is coming. Same happened in Zim, all the aid the "organised" first World sent to Zimbabwe was confescated by Rob, he then sent this only to villages who voted and supported him. Reports are he even sold it to them. He is a very rich and very corrupt man. He exchanged land for oil with the Lybians as recent as a few months ago, because they could not pay for oil. Imagine that problem they just started. Now not even the lybians want the land any more. With no one to work it, it is a dead investment for even lybia. Now they have now gas...!
I was in Zimbabwe in December, only in Victoria Falls. The locals want nothing to do with Rob, he killed the local ecnomy that was 100% based on touruism. I started my own little boycot in 2001, by not taking my clients to Zim but rather Zambian side of the Falls. Who suffers? the locals in VicFalls.
Crossing the border into Zim you pay a $30 entry fee...going straight to rob's pocket. For the rest I would love to go back to Zim with my clients. I am still strugling with this one.
Karen, so how do you help? by getting involved with some one or some village personally. By doing a indept study of who you are giving to, you might just be giving to the wrong person if you do not know who this aid is going to.
I can direct you if you need help...
We should all pitch in, I am not saying give up your job and 6 bedroom house and go work in Africa for a year (although I have seen this happen), but you would be amazed at how much a little does in Africa.
Any one wanting more info can contact me direct at willie@offroadacademy.com We are not just another Safari company, we try and help the locals. We barter with them (we speak the local languages) to have the privelage of exploring great places like the Okavango Delta and the Namib desert in a Land Rover, to see the animals and experience them. We try not to deal with any big organisations or even worse the Governments.
Who put the borders around the Bushman, who in my mind owns Africa....
This subject is very dear to me.
Willie |
Leslie N. Bright (Leslie)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 02:28 pm: |
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I've got mixed feelings on Africa, and I feel bad that I do, but...
It just burns me that some tribes, for example, will kill any child that has the top teeth come in before the bottom teeth. One leader there claims that science is wrong, that AIDS isn't caused by HIV, just because (as far as I could tell) he couldn't afford the treatment for his people. When citizens and leaders of countries there act like that, it's hard for me to want to help.
What's sad is, I feel more empathy for the wildlife in Africa than I do the people. We love all of the Discovery and TLC shows on lions, cheetahs, zebras, giraffes, elephants, gorillas, etc. etc. etc.; I'd love to see the continent. There are wonderful cultures there, I'm sure, and even those that I dislike for some reasons, I'm sure have positive features too... but, when something rubs you the wrong way, that I take as "barbaric", it really hinders the desire to help.
And, I'm sure that there's plenty in our cultures that they too would find offensive and barbaric. So, I don't want to point fingers at them lest they point back at me.... but, that ends up leading to a paralysis of action that would help them...
It gets thick from there, eh?
-L |
Mark & Bev Preston (Markp)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 05:12 pm: |
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Somewhat related to Africa - Is it the United Nations or League of Nations? We are about to find out:
N Korea gives 'act of war' warning (Maurice Strong delivers message)
Herald Sun (Australia) ^ | 1/23/03
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/827532/posts |
willie
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 08:06 pm: |
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What ! are they doing now?
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KJ
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 10:22 pm: |
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Leslie,
I know what you are saying about practices and attitudes of some people that put us off, but I could say the same about some people in my OWN corner of the world. But, it's a treasured part of the American system that we allow for people to largely be as they are, within our laws and socialtal parameters. Every day of my life I wish there wasn't a law against flogging the stoopid and otherwise offensive, but.....
Willie, your post was exactly what I was looking for, first-hand knowledge of the situation(s). Fact is, as far as I know, the rest of us here are not informed as you are. Our blowing of smoke and hot air might get a conversation started, but it might not develop into anything more than a use of bandwidth. Or maybe it will. You've got mail. I need to learn more.
I was born in Africa and have always felt the pull. I think I have something of a Disney-esque/Discovery Channel/Wild Kingdom romanticised notion of it, but at least it's an interest. I got over thinking the horsey life was like in the movies, and it didn't kill my love for horses. Reality doesn't have to kill one's dreams, sometimes the dreams just grow up a lot. Please keep talking to us about this. It's clear there is interest on this bulletin board, and thank you for your thoughtful post.
Karen |
Garth
| | Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 09:28 am: |
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Mark
It's interesting that your reference is to an article in the Herald-Sun (Melbourne, Australia)
All I'll say about that newspaper is that my wife used to order it for school, so that 9 year olds could get used to reading the newspaper.
She discontinued it because the vocabulary wasn't testing their reading skills and the boys used to sit at the back of the class reading the ads for massage parlours.
Garth |
Mark & Bev Preston (Markp)
| | Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 10:24 am: |
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Garth,
Interesting take on the Herald-Sun. I'll have to remember that :-) There are many newspapers that fit that description. As for the article itself, someone posted this article on FreeRepublic. The contributors are from around the world, as are their sources.
As for North Korea, I think they are trying to take advantage of the Iraq situation. Between Iraq and North Korea we will find out if it's the U.N. or League of Nations. I'm leaning to the latter. I raised this issue because it will have an impact on Africa. North Korea is ruled by a dictator and is starving his people. Does this sound similar to some African nations? |
craigd
| | Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 02:09 am: |
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Yea, yea....and do you think we are gonna colonize Iraq and take ownership of their oil?
Cripes you can't have it both ways. Bush wants to drill in the Alaskan ...and Bush wants to fight over oil in Iraq...
If he wants to drill in Alaska...then tutning off the spigot in the Mideast would help his cause...fighting over oil, and siezing Iraqs fields would not..AND WE COULD HAVE SIEZED ALL OF IRAQS OIL INDUSTRY DURING DESERT STORM IF WE WANTED IT, if that was our motivation.
So why don't we hear more about the Congo? Because the media isn't interested. They are not a threat to us directly at this time.
The terrorists aren't even the biggest threat at this time! Get this...It is those that hold the technology and production capabilities for weapons of mass destruction the terrorists crave that would be willing to supply the terrorists that are the BIGGEST THREAT TO US.
Why isn't Washington as shook about N. Korea yet?
Because they are so isolationist and seceretive that they won't share anything with all the NUTS running around or anyone else. and a rouge country we can keep our eye on and preempt in one fell swoop if neccessary. A country we have to worry about supplying little cells all over who intend to do nothing but kill innocent people in our country is a real serious threat...if just one of those cells is supplied, and is undetected...
Our President's first duty is to protect the United States of America. Since we seem to have our hands full with imediate threats some of Africa is taking a back seat as not an imediate threat.
By the way much of the middle east is Africa you know.
It has nothin to do with oil or race.
I feel terrible for the Pygmies but the safety of our children is our govt's priority as defined by the founding fathers.
Last Mr. Clinton effectively allowed the CIA and the rest of our intellegence community to be dismanled...as an unneccessary evil. We lost most of our intellegence on the ground..our inside capability and contacts...it will take a decade to recover and rebuild that infrastructure.
Take it from someone who knows  |
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