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Mark & Bev Preston (Markp)
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 08:58 pm: | 
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Important for Land Rover. The future of the EU is socialism and eventual collapse. As long as Britain is not part of this, it is positive for Land Rover.
From The Independent (U.K.)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/826810/posts |
muskyman
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 02:08 pm: |
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if a fight starts and you have no choice but get involved do you want to step next to the big guy or the little guy?
i think tony blair has allready stepped for you |
Jaime (Blueboy)
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 02:19 pm: |
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unless you really like getting hurt and the feeling of pain!!
Jaime |
BigBroBeWatchin
| | Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 12:22 am: |
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You know,
All I have to say about that article is the following: Pardon my language 
The Fucking French.
How many times does the strong and free world have to save them before they realize they cant do it themselves.
More particularly:
How many times does the strong and free world have to save them before WE realize they are a lost cause and will just spite us for it? Perhaps next time a dictator and his army marches into Paris, we should just let them weep in the streets like they did back then, and only liberate them unless each and every one of them promises to respect this country for the freedoms we provide them time and time again |
muskyman
| | Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 10:42 am: |
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the weakening Dollar will make both germany and france start to feel the bite of what sept11 has done to the economy here in the USA.
its still going to take awhile for the USA corporate investment in the EU to start falling off but when it does it dosent look good for the EU's growth curve.
lets see how france feels when unemployment hits them without the social services needed to feed the people. germany has always been a volitile place lets see how people feel when unemployment hits because the Americans cant or wont afford themselves that new BMW.
hold on tight EU thats where its heading fast |
craigd
| | Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 01:40 am: |
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I concur, isn't it amazing anti american sentiment allways runs the highest in countries where our finest sons spilled the most blood so they could bitch?
Witness S. Korea...they would be eating dirt in the street like their brothers in the north if not for our blood.,,our blood.
The same with the french, but with them, it's again and again. Pacifist BS- they want to pacify right up to the time their enemy is marching into Paris...then they need help...and we have to sacrifice 10's of thousands.
Now France is replaying history...holding out their spinelessness to the terrorists..I predict France will pay...and I sincerely hope we let them pay alone this time.
The French disgust me.
We apparently have to sit here and wait for 10's of thousands of americans die again so we don't offend France...this time on our own soil.
Bush said, "If you aren't with us you are against us"
Mr. President...they aren't with us.
Thank You to our brothers in Britain. The only nation with some cajones...
France and Germany are just f'n afraid of what we'll discover they've been selling and trading with the Iraqis if we get over there...shit. |
Todd W. McLain (Ganryu)
| | Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 04:50 am: |
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Not that I am trying to defend their actions, because I'm not, but, the French and the Germans have 2 major problems right now:
1. They've still got all the leftist in power who think communism will work.
2. Both have very, very large Arab populations that the governments are trying to appease.
Somebody might want to mention to the french that their own colonial policies in North Africa helped to bring about a lot of the cronies in that area, which just happens to be a major area for terrorist training camps. |
Mike Rupp (Mike_Rupp)
| | Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 10:37 am: |
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Between the world wars, Britain tried to appease the Arabs by halting immigration of Jews into Palestine. What did it get them? The Arabs just sided up with the Nazis in WW2. Appeasement doesn't work. |
Tom Rowe
| | Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 12:51 pm: |
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Well...alot of people seem to forget France was pivatol in us even *having* a United States of America. If not for them we might still be a colony (I doubt it, but it's possible)
I haven't been following it all that closely, as I'm sure history will repeat itself and no matter what, we will still have millions around the world, and 1000's of fanatics (the one's *I* worry about) hating America since the US has no apparent interest in changing it's foreign policy.
But, perhaps the leaders in France and Germany are merely reperesenting their peoples's wishes, as opposed to Tony Blair. From what I've read, about 70% of the populace of GB are opposed to Bush's plans.
I would certainly love to see Saddam gone, the man is a lunatic, but people are very quick to forget that it was *us* who gave him many of his biological and chemical weapons (our very own Donald Rumsfeld helping out there) when it looked like they were loosing to Iran during the Iran/Iraq war.
How many people here remember the *reason* why we spent so much effort on getting Israel to hold back after they were targetted by Iraq during the gulf war. It was because Kuwait (the country we were "liberating") said if Israel attacked Iraq, Kuwait would attack Israel. I'm amazed at how many people completely missed that.
IMO it's mostly BS posturing and the old might makes right attitude. And also to defelct attention from how the current government is trashing the Bill of Rights. War on Terror? BS! It's just another name for war on whoever doesn't agree with us. A little publicised news item, China has been persecuting a small group who wanted autonomy and the US has for years been on China's case that they should lighten up and let them be. Suddenly, this group has been put on the list of "Terrorists" when China threatened to Veto UN resolutions autorizing force in Iraq. Now China abstains.
Yeah, terrorists should be drawn and quartered, actually I like Israel's sentence, 1000 years in prison with no parole, but most of what is going on is once again political posturing, trying to mind other people's business and calling those who dissagree traitors.
My father was career Navy, my uncle died trapped in the Oklahoma and I have the greatest respect of most military people. I cry whenever I hear taps played. But I also get sick and tired of hearing how we are the best in the world and people pick on us for no reason. Yeah, some do, but alot don't.
Some day, I hope we learn that we have to have some morals, we can't keep the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" attitude. It's *always* gonna bite us in the end. |
Paul Grant (Paulgrant)
| | Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 01:37 pm: |
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494 days since George Bush announced that he wanted Osama Bin Laden dead or alive! Just a few days less than that since the terrorists began sending anthrax through the mail. Just the other day Tony Blair said we have been unable to establish any links between Sadam Hussein and Al Qaeda. Blix stated yesterday that in some ways Iraq has been very helpful with inspections while in some ways it has not, hardly reason for starting a war when there is more work to be done. Public opinion polls in the UK as well as the US indicate diminishing support for a war with Iraq at this time.
When George Bush says time is running out I have to wonder for whom? The economy is still stumbling along, Wall Street is taking two steps back for each step forward, the latest economic stimulus package just like last year's (do you remember what you did with your check for $300?) is a sham and all the while the administration's approval ratings slowly, but steadly erode. Kind of like our rights and liberties thanks to the "Patriot Act." |
Blue (Bluegill)
| | Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 02:20 pm: |
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Not having osama's head on a pole in the White House front lawn is irritating, like a thorn in your side. It really doesn't matter one bit, but it's irritating just the same.
Who was sending the anthrax? al qaeda? I never knew this was determined for sure...
sadam hussein presents a problem separate from al qaeda. not having a direct connection between the two does not a good sadam make.
The truth is that iraq is required to FULLY comply with the UN - not be helpful in just some ways of their choosing. What can't people understand about the concept of absolutes?
"Public opinion polls in the UK as well as the US indicate diminishing support for a war with Iraq at this time." As war transitions from possible future prospect to reality, more & more rats start jumping ship. Same as what happens when someone yells across the room, "I'm gonna kick your ass" and then they head for the nearest exit when it looks like their offer is going to be accepted.
Yes the economy is still stumbling along, but the fact that it's still stumbling along indicates life. When it's stopped dead, I'll be concerned. If we didn't still have rights & liberties, you wouldn't be allowed to post that message, and you also wouldn't be allowed to fly over to iraq to be a human shield. Now, that human shield crap is just plain funny...sadly ironic, but still funny... |
Tom Rowe
| | Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 03:21 pm: |
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I thought they traced the anthrax to a domestic source (maybe I'm wrong on that though). Still a terrorist IMO, just like the shooters in the DC area sniper attacts, Tim McVeigh, the unibomber, and all. They generated "terror".
Actually Paul said our rights are eroding, not that they are all gone.
It's interesting, a recent survey showed that a majority of Americans feel that the first amendment gave us too many rights, but when asked, couldn't even say what was in the first amendment. In my mind a good explanation why so many people feel you have nothing to worry about if you obey the law. In other words, "it can't happen to me". |
Leslie N. Bright (Leslie)
| | Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 03:25 pm: |
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Tom,
That France died shortly after the birth of the US with the French Revolution. Instead of just throwing off the bonds to a monarchy, they started beheading everyone left-n-right, and ended up killing off most of the intelligence that was there....
-L |
Blue (Bluegill)
| | Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 03:42 pm: |
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leave it to the ignorant masses to say that the gov't gives us too many rights. |
Tom Rowe
| | Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 03:58 pm: |
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Leslie, I wonder when and who will be saying the same about us?
Well...you know what they say:
Hell is where the cooks are English, the police are German, and the politicians are French ;-)
I still like Muscadet and brie :-) |
Erik Olson (Jon)
| | Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 05:38 pm: |
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I think we should incorporate the hand-over of Osama bin Laden into our dealings with Iraq. If we can't get that guy ourselves, I'd put ten down that Iraq could. Let Hussein have his country back with NATO / UN inspectors and new embassies for Russia, GB, China and U.S. and no further sanctions. Show the world that we're only trying to root-out the extremists, not the Muslims en-masse.
e |
Paul Grant (Paulgrant)
| | Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 06:13 pm: |
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Blue, I never said that Al Qaeda was responsible for the anthrax attacks. I said terrorists because that is who we are SUPPOSED to be at war with whether they are international or domestic. That is was George Bush said.
While not having a direct connection, in your words, "does not a good Sadam make," too me all this nonsense about regime change only serves to distract us from the real threats of terrorism. Iraq is an impoverished nation kept on life support by the oil the UN sanctions allow it to export. It no longer has the "fourth largest army in the world" and I find it hard to imagine that it has the secret cachets fo WMD that our administration would like us to believe.
Before the investigations started, Bush was claiming, along with Blair that they had incontrovertible evidence. Well, if there was ever a better time, it has come. Show the world the evidence to justify a military action. The administration must have more than Condeleeza Rice's op ed piece in the NY Times yesterday.
We have never been the first to attack a sovereign nation in the 227 years this country has been in existance. Doing so now would set a dangerous precedent and serve to alienate even more of the world's population that already look at our actions with suspicion. Undouubtedly, it would squander what reamains of the good will the world still feels towards the US because of 9/11.
With regard to compliance, I just read today that the UN inspectors led by Blix would give Iraq a B for their cooperation. Does that mean that we should unleash the bombs because they didn't get an A? It sounds like the inspectors are getting the support they need from the Iraqi's. Now, the major stumbling block is the unwillingness of the Iraqi scientist to talk with the inspectors. Again, does this mean bombs away?
Now as far as the "rats jumping ship" am I to take that as the roughly 70% of the British citizens polled are the rats? Are the hundreds of thousands who were involved in peace marches aroud this country last weekend also the rats? The roughly 50% of American citizens polled are rats? What, exactly areyou trying to say with your analogy? I am equally confounded by your analogy of the bully and the threat.
Now, speaking of the economy, I don't think we could have come up with a more awkward time to start rattling our sabers. With the federal government amassing debt at an alarming rate, state and local governments being forced to cut essential services, Wall Street showing no signs of steady improvement and the only things keeping a deflationary spiral at bay is the current housing bubble and risng oil prices, now is not the time to unilaterally start a war (thus incurring potentially hundreds of billions of dollars in new debt).
Finally, I never made mention of human shields so I have no answer to for comment.
Oh yes, one other thing. The government doen't give us our rights. I think it was a Virginia plantaion owner who eloquently affirmed our rights as inalienable. |
Mark & Bev Preston (Markp)
| | Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 06:54 pm: |
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The economic problems started during the 2nd Clinton term. Take a look at the DOW and NASDAQ charts. They went ballistic around 1996, an election year. The money supply was pumped up to juice up the economy. Greenspan floated a new economic theory, that productivity would allow the economy to grow at that rate. Well, he was wrong. He and the Clinton administration created a bubble. Bubbles can't be fixed, only prevented. Only time will fix the overcapacity and debt issues.
Fed Feared 'Bubble' in '97 but Failed to Act (Untill the end of Clinton era)
Newsmax ^ | Friday, Jan. 24, 2003 | NewsMax.com Wires
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/828771/posts
I remember when Bush came into office and said the economy had serious problems. Everyone jumped on him and said he was talking down the economy and that it wasn't bad. Well he was right. Now he proposes an aggressive tax package and the Democrats want to give me $600. We already tried the one time refund. Did they miss that? Lower taxes and reform will stimulate revenues.
No, we never have been first to attack. And after Iraq that will still be true. Terrorism cannot survive without the support of nations. Wake up.
- Mark |
Mike H
| | Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 07:04 pm: |
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Let Britain become out 51st state. |
Paul Grant (Paulgrant)
| | Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 07:31 pm: |
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Mark, I did not assign blame for the state of the economy to the Bush administration. I did make the claim that both economic stimulus packages are a sham and frankly most economists across the board seem to agree.
Frankly, I get so tired of people thinking you are a lover of Clinton if you have anything negative to say about the current administration. In all honesty, it's my feeling that Clinton was the best Republican president we've had in many years (not necassarily a compliment). Just look at the increasing disparity of wealth in this country under his administration.
Now, about your statement "we never have been first to attack. And, after Iraq that will still be true." Are you saying that we're really are not about to attack or, more likely, are you saying that after we establish the precedent to justify regime change in situations we deem appropriate, we'll never do it again?
Lastly, if I recall correctly, Osama Bin Laden and thirteen of the terrorist on board planes on 9/11 were Saudis. If a son of Fidel Castro had directed thirteen Ecquadorians to fly planes into the WTC and Pentagon would we have invaded Ecquador and then Bolivia a year later? Oh, wait, we really want to go after Venezuela and that no good democratically elected president don't we!
Oh yes, about state sponsored terrorism, didn't I say in my above post that both the Blair and Bush administrations were unable to come up with any direct link between Iraq and Al Qaeda. Remember, Bin laden is Sunni and Hussein is a Shiite and they hate each other almost as mush as the terrorists on both side ofthe conflict in Northern Ireland. |
Paul Grant (Paulgrant)
| | Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 07:35 pm: |
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Mike, if things go the way the Bush administration plans, Iraq might be the 51st state. Hell, at least they'll have more oil than Alaska and Texas combined. Wait, maybe you're on to something. How about the 52nd state...they do have a lot of oil in the North Sea and we might be able to buy Defenders again!!!! |
Peter Matusov (Pmatusov)
| | Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 08:05 pm: |
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Tom and Paul, some good words there. I'm with you.
on top of all said, go back and check out who created Saudi Arabia and carved out the rest of the place.
peter |
Mark & Bev Preston (Markp)
| | Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 08:18 pm: |
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Paul,
None of my comments were directed at you. I'm not saying you are a Clinton supporter. I'm just stating some facts. As for Clinton, he had his agendas and generally I think he will become known as one of the worst presidents we ever had.
As for the current economy, I'm saying we are post-bubble, that bubbles cannot be 'fixed', whether you are a Republican or a Democrat. I do have to say that Bush was more aggressive than I thought he would be. In this political environment any change in the tax code is characterized as a tax cut for the rich. Well when 50% of the population doesn't pay any taxes and you cut taxes, guess what! The tax cut goes to the "rich". Oh buy the way, if you make over $50K you are rich.
As for Iraq, my statement was that terrorism does require a state such as Iraq. That Iraq does support terrorism and that Sept 11 was in effect an act of war. While the media doesn't have all the info, I'm sure you can understand why the info to the media is limited. Have you noticed the change in Powell in the last few days/weeks? He is usually the one for restraint, but he has changed his rehtoric. The link is there, just not communicated in the media. To give all your Intel will compromise your source.
Yes, most of the 9/11 terrorist were Saudis, but not all. Sometime the enemy of your enemy is your enemy. Something like that.
- Mark |
Yomtov
| | Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 08:41 pm: |
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Its a shame all this bs is about money !! Its all connected and at the end of the day its who gets the most of it, the almighty dollar. Its a shame so many people in this world have no faith in their religion or anything for that matter unless it revolves around money. This is the reason why Pres. Bush wants to get rid of Saddam for Iraqs oil and who can blame him this would only help our independence against any country who holds their oil hostage from us and when this happens you will see how fast our economy will recover. You notice any sanctions we have against any country who is uncooperative towards US causes it is always some kind of money issue whether it is billions of dollars of aid or whatever. I think everybody in this world better stick to their respective faiths for the answer and believe me it aint the almighty dollar !! |
joe (Joe)
| | Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 10:01 pm: |
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Kill em all, let God Sort em out!!!!
enuf said!!! |
Jess Alvarez (Jester)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 12:31 am: |
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"a recent survey showed that a majority of Americans feel that the first amendment gave us too many rights"
Are these the same americans that feel that the government shouldnt 'give' Americans a tax break?
The thing is: The government doesnt GIVE us our rights or GIVE us tax breaks. These things arent GIFTS. We are "endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable Rights," and I cant believe that there are Americans out there that think that it is the government that GAVE them to us. (of course, maybe I can, after seeing what the public schools 'teach' these days). The government doesnt GIVE anything to Americans. It just TAKES less. Same with taxes. A tax break isnt a GIFT. It is TAKING less of what you and I have worked hard to make.
In my opinion, of all of the dangers in America, complacency and apathy among its people are the two most dangerous. If we keep allowing the notion that we are getting something from the government to flourish, we are in grave danger of allowing them to take more of what the creators of this country considered 'unalienable.'
Shudder to think...
Jess
"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein" |
Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 01:20 am: |
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Time to close the boarders and gear up for the showdown with China. Cold war part 2 or WW3, either or will happen in about a decade.(Give or take a couple years) |
Paul Grant (Paulgrant)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 03:55 am: |
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Government of the people, for the people, by the people. What a radical notion that sounds like to most citizens of the US today! Where are the likes of men such as Thomas Paine when you need them most. Probably behind bars with no right to council as a result of the Patriot Act. |
Todd W. McLain (Ganryu)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 05:54 am: |
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Jess,
best solution I ever saw for tax reform was to stop witholding taxes from peoples pay and actually make them pay their taxes once a year. If people had to actually right out a check to the govt. then they will bgein to realize how absurd the taxes really are. As it is, most people are all happy because the govt. decides to return a percentage of what the took because it was to much.
Personaly, I like Steve Forbes's plan for the 14% flat tax. Seems fair, everybody pays their fair share, and that share is the same amount. Why should we punish the succesful for being succesful? |
Tom Rowe
| | Posted on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 09:31 am: |
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Paul,
"We have never been the first to attack a sovereign nation in the 227 years this country has been in existance."
Actually, the US attacked Russia in, around 1918 I think it was. As I recall it was a botched (foolish) attempt to overthrow the Communists. This isn't taught in the US shcool system, but most in Russia know it.
Jess,
"The government doesnt GIVE us our rights"
Sorry, poorly worded.
The government can allow us to keep them. Or not. Witness the Patriot Act taking them, and the database that's beeing prepared to track every single purchace, Dr. visit and anything else we don't do completely anonymously. Or the move to electronic voting that doesn't allow a recount, or, by law, doesn't allow an independent body to verify that an election hasn't been rigged. We have this already here in Georgia.
It's very depressing to have to vote every 4 years for the "least bad" person. How I long for a candidate I can actually feel *good* about. |
muskyman
| | Posted on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 12:55 pm: |
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todd,
I write out a check to both the feds and the state I live in 4 times a year, as do many others on this board. and because I have been self employed most my life my checks total more then most because I have no employer match tax .
your point makes sence about if you dont see it you dont feel it. but its way off base because almost 50% of people that file are required to make quarterly tax prepayments.
everbody else
our goverment has never taken land or resources by force we have bent a couple nations over a table of contract but we more often then not spend billions to liberate a country then hand it back and slowly go home leaving that nation better then we found it. thats one of the true reasons we are who we are and why we are the oldest standing goverment on the planet
id say peace but some times war is needed to prevent people from being bullied all there lives
iraq is run by a self centered totalitarian dictator that has squandered the wealth of his people on milatary might and gold plated palaces as his people the true owners of that oil under the sand have starved and suffered.
that alone is enough reason to go get Sadam! |
Paul Grant (Paulgrant)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 02:20 pm: |
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Tom, you are right about the involvement of a number of western democracies in invading the burgeoning Soviet Union. However, if I recall, the action was done under the guise of insuring democracy after the overthrow of the Romanov's and the insuing chaos. It was made to appear that we were coming to the aid of the Mensheviks who were claiming the Bolshevik Revolution was the product of a cabal lacking broad support. It didn't take long for the western armies to realize their mistake and promply withdraw.
Mark, from the standpoint of GDP, yes, it might be said that we are "post bubble." And, yes, the late nineties produced as many "bubbles" an a Lawrence Welk bubble machine. The issue I am most concerned about is the real estate bubble that is the only thing left to still drive consumption in this economy as people continue to refinace and take equity out of their homes. Consumers will be the ones to drag this economy out of the doldrums but I am frightened that if homeowners goes through a deflationary implosion along the lines of personal investors, we haven't even begun to see the depths to which we may sink.
Another thing, you are asking me to have blind faith in this administration and believe that they do have proof of Iraq's development of WMD over the last eleven years. I'm sorry, I cannot have any faith in an administration that so blatantly rolls over my civil rights while disregarding the Constitution upon which this nation was founded. I see a group of oppportunist who would stop at nothing to further enrich and empower themselves and their friends. While this may be no different than countless adminstrations before,, we have NEVER before be in a situation where we need honesty and forthrightness from out leaders on both sides of the aisle.
Jess, I couldn't agree with you more about apathy in this country, throw in an education system that is in dire need of repair and you wind up with a citizenry that will do as it's told. I often come away from conversations with people shaking my head about the prescience of the likes of Orwell and Ayn Rand (a dime store Nietzsche if there ever was one!).
Yomtov, while I couldn't agree with you more about the worship of the almighty dollar, sadly, the very people and their actions prompting most of this discussion were motivated by the very thing (religion) that you say holds the answer for our difficulties. Religion is not the answer education, experience and tolerance are.
Tom, the "it can't happen to me" statement is all too true. It reminds me of the tale of the old Jewish man in Nazi Germany in the late 1930's. I may not get this story exactly right but I think you'll get the gist. A Jewish man remembered how one day in Germany he heard about how a man acroos town was taken away because he was a Gypsy. He thought this was terrible but thought there must be good reason otherwise someone would have said something. He continued on about his business. A few days later he heard about a gay man being taken away by the Nazis but again thought that there must have been something to it or someone would have done something. Then he heard about a Pole, then a Slav, then a Chech all being taken away by the Nazis but he still though himself safe because he hadn't done anything wrong but surely these men must have. Then one day the Nazis knocked on his door and took him away. As he was being escorted off to the death camp he thought most certainly someone would say something for he had done nothing wrong. However, as he was dragged off he was shocked to see not only that no one said anything but that there was no one left in his community at all!
Muskyman, while I won't disagree that this country has done some wonderful things in the name of democracy and human rights I don't think you have to travel very far outside of our own hemisphere to here horror stories committed under our aegis.
Just think School of the Americas but don't stop there, the list goes on. I am not trying to beat up on America but I think it is important that we know the bad as well as the good as it will go a long way towards helping us to understand perceptions others in the world may have of us.
Now, enough of all this stuff, I'm going wheeling tomorrow and have to check out my Rangie!!!! |
Paul Grant (Paulgrant)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 03:27 pm: |
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Tom, I did a little checking. The presence of AEF and British forces in Russia at the end 1917 was the result of the desire for the allies to secure the passage of war materiel in and out of a country in utter chaos. When the Bolshviks took power in October of 1917 they promptly withdrew from the war viewing it as nothing more than a battle over profits. Western forces soon ran into difficulty getting cooperation from the new government and thus aligned themselves with the "Whites" or Mensheviks in early 1918. So this really is a different scenario that what we are facing today. |
Jess Alvarez (Jester)
| | Posted on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 06:31 pm: |
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Tom,
------
Jess,
"The government doesnt GIVE us our rights"
Sorry, poorly worded.
The government can allow us to keep them. Or not. Witness the Patriot Act taking them, and the database that's beeing prepared to track every single purchace, Dr. visit and anything else we don't do completely anonymously. Or the move to electronic voting that doesn't allow a recount, or, by law, doesn't allow an independent body to verify that an election hasn't been rigged. We have this already here in Georgia.
------
Yes, I agree that perhaps the wording would give room for interpretation of what I meant, however, my intentions were to point out the fact that our government is not the entity which afforded us the rights we have. Yes, they can take them, but being that we are a government for and by the people, we have the ability to 'restrict the restrictions' of government, so to speak.
There isnt a restriction of rights that you listed that could not be overturned or killed before it starts by an American public that (a) understood what our Constitution says about the rights that we have, and (b) cared enough to do something about it.
However, we, as a nation, have become so apathetic and complacent with our elected officials (not to mention ill-educated about what this country is based upon, among other things) that it nearly takes them to kill an intern before they are booted from office. It is sad how many people blow off their right to vote on issues, both locally and nationally, yet still are some of the first to complain when things don't happen the way they want them to.
That was more my point than the poorly written statement of mine that you quoted.
I completely agree with you about having to vote every 4 years for the "least bad" person.
Cheers.
jess |
Tom Rowe
| | Posted on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 07:06 pm: |
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Jess..I meant *my* statement (which you were responding to, was poorly worded ;-)
Paul, Yes, what you say is true, but if I'm not mistaken, I'll have to look it up to be sure, the US also went ashore in the area of Siberia. In any case, *why* we were there is irrelevent as far as I'm concerned, I was just addressing the statement whe had never commited a premeptive attact on another country. And in fact, as I think about it, that's what Bay of Pigs was as well. Yes, it was the US Miltary, but for all intents and purposes it was the US invading Cuba. I'm not talking right or wrong here, just whether we've done it or not.
In any case, I don't think it's the role of the US to go about the world overtrowing or ousting governments (legitimate or otherwise). I see it as a much larger scale of me going in a shooting a neighbor because I don't like the way he treats his family. I see that as a role for the police. I haven't heard anything about the world electing the US as the world policing body. I don't have the answer, but I think the way we are going about things is wrong. |
adtoolco
| | Posted on Monday, January 27, 2003 - 10:27 am: |
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Of, for, by. No one takes our rights from us but ourselves. Any other argument is unneccesary. Too many take for granted our right to vote. A sorry state of affairs that does an injustice to all that fought and died in the name of freedom.
-Chris |
Blue (Bluegill)
| | Posted on Monday, January 27, 2003 - 01:38 pm: |
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Quote:best solution I ever saw for tax reform was to stop witholding taxes from peoples pay and actually make them pay their taxes once a year. If people had to actually right out a check to the govt. then they will bgein to realize how absurd the taxes really are.
this is good - this is maybe the only way that people can begin to understand what taxes really mean to them as individuals. How many people really stop to consider that 1)they work hard, 2) their employer issues a paycheck for their hard work, 3) their government takes what they want from the paycheck, then 4)they get what's left. Like Musky said, those of us who have paid our own taxes on behalf of our own corporations understand what many salaried-people don't. That's why a lot of us get so upset with the stupid bullshit socialistic programs that waste MY money. You see some bullshit government waste of money on the news, and you think, "damn, I'm going to have to write a check to cover that..." |
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