| Author | Message | ||
     Tom Hyslip (007) Member Username: 007 Post Number: 138 Registered: 03-2002 |
Looking to add on-board air, and I am looking for some recommendations. The CO2 tanks seem nice, but how much air do they give you? What about air compressors, any advice? | ||
| Lawrence Tilly (L_tilly) Member Username: L_tilly Post Number: 92 Registered: 02-2002 |
Check out the EE site (www.expeditionexchange.com). They have a good solution for sale there. What's great is they don't just list the product specs, they give a good write up and links for even more info. They would also answer any questions you may have if you droped them a message or gave them a call. -Lawrence | ||
| Mike J. (Mudd) Member Username: Mudd Post Number: 80 Registered: 02-2002 |
I have a Quick Air compressor, that works ok but not even colse to a tank. It takes me about 20 minutes to go from 20lbs. to 38 or so. Its about 3lbs per minute which sucks compared to the tanks. I'm not sure how fast they go but it's twice as fast at least. My unit is a lot smaller... I also use and love the oasis defators, they are great and as fast as it gets for deflating. | ||
| Barry (Barry) New Member Username: Barry Post Number: 2 Registered: 02-2003 |
Tom, I have narrowed down my choice of 100% duty cycle compressors from these two: www.extremeoutback.com/Compressors.htm www.viaircorp.com/product.html Still have not decided if the larger size 100% duty cycle units (Greater CFM) are worth the challenge of finding a suitable location for fixed mounting. -Barry | ||
| RVR OVR (Tom) Senior Member Username: Tom Post Number: 739 Registered: 07-2001 |
CO2 Tanks give you enough to fill about 20 33" tires with a 10 lb tank. Obviously a larger tank size/smaller tire size means more fill ups. Are you looking to run air tools as well? For CO2, also check out http://www.4wheelair.com Tom | ||
| Bill Bettridge (Billb) Senior Member Username: Billb Post Number: 671 Registered: 02-2002 |
You might also look at the Oasis air compressor - an electrically driven York AC pump (via winch motor) - Picey, but still interesting. Bill | ||
| Tom Hyslip (007) Member Username: 007 Post Number: 139 Registered: 03-2002 |
tools would be nice, but I assume the price would go way up. So I have to weigh the options. | ||
| Tom Hyslip (007) Member Username: 007 Post Number: 140 Registered: 03-2002 |
Barry, With the 100% duty cycle do you still need a tank? I also like the simplicity of the power tank or 4wheelair, but have never seen these in operation. Anyone use them now, or know how effective they are with tools? | ||
| Perrone Ford (Perroneford) Member Username: Perroneford Post Number: 46 Registered: 02-2003 |
The powertank and the Oasis can both run air tools. The benefit of the Oasis, is that you never need to do a refill. I have to be honest and say I am sorely tempted to get one JUST because I can use it for air tools. It would be pretty nice to have that capability around the shop and on the trail. Air Chisel, air hammer, ThunderGun, air ratchet, nibbler, even a HVLP paint gun. -P | ||
| Ho Chung (Thediscoho) Moderator Username: Thediscoho Post Number: 48 Registered: 02-2002 |
i use the 15 lb powertank. it takes care of air tools just fine: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/powertank/DSC02244.jpg http://www.expeditionexchange.com/powertank/DSC01688.jpg and for that extra assurance, i carry a small 5 pounder always full on top of the cheese ARB compressor. the only thing that comes close to the powertank in performance is the oasis unit mentioned above. http://expeditionexchange.com/sema2002/DSC02037.jpg and even then, it's not 100% cycle. you have to let it cool off. and a dual battery setup would be nice to supply juice for the hungry little motor. not the mention the noise you create in the morning airing up tires while your friends are trying to get some sleep in the tents.  ---------- Ho Chung | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1075 Registered: 02-2002 |
HVLP paint gun on the trail? Perrone, why are you painting on the trail? WHAT are you painting on the trail? | ||
| Peter Carey (Pcarey) Senior Member Username: Pcarey Post Number: 535 Registered: 05-2002 |
I built my own from various sources. I got a 20# tank off of eBay for about $118, then got the regulator and hose from 4wheelair. At this point I was running about $234 for 20# of CO2. I ended up getting the PowerTank handle because it does do a great job of protecting the regulator. All said in done, $299 shipped. Will fill some 54 tires from 20-35PSI (depending on tires size of course) and the reg will go from 0-300PSI, although the hose is rated around 160PSI, but there is that extra omph if you need it and have the proper hoses to handle it. Then spent about $6 on straps and hardware to hold it tight in the truck. I'm cheap that way. Locally it's $19 to fill the 20#. It's a good 45# when full, but that PowerTank handle makes it fairly easy to carry. pwc | ||
| Jerry Crawford (Jcrawford) Member Username: Jcrawford Post Number: 65 Registered: 08-2002 |
...hmmm, interesting string. I'm not at all knowledgeable about this so...., is there any good reason a guy couldn't use a spare O2 bottle from an oxy/acet rig and get it filled with Co2? These bottles and regulators are available in many pawn shops for under 50 bucks. I'd use a new hose but ...would this work or is there some reason a supplier would not fill an Oxy bottle with Co2 | ||
| D. Chapman (1hank1) New Member Username: 1hank1 Post Number: 28 Registered: 02-2003 |
I have a Co2 Bottle for my Kegarator. Will this work? I am using a Power inverter now with a small 100psi pump, no tank. I have thought about using my rock sliders as an air tank. Think it would work? | ||
| Tom Hyslip (007) Member Username: 007 Post Number: 141 Registered: 03-2002 |
I have decided on the CO2 tank, but cannot decide on Power Tank or 4wheelair solution. Any recommendations? I like the price of the 4wheelair system, but prefer the handle on the power tank. | ||
| RVR OVR (Tom) Senior Member Username: Tom Post Number: 741 Registered: 07-2001 |
since the powertank doesn't come with a mount, you are looking at over 380, maybe even 400 after shipping if you add the mount. i guess you have to ask yourself if it is worth $120 for a different type of handle. when it comes to mounting whichever you chose, this will help: http://www.4wheelair.com/mounting/discomount/discomount.htm tom | ||
| Barry (Barry) New Member Username: Barry Post Number: 4 Registered: 02-2003 |
Tom, You do not need an aux. tank when running a 100% duty cycle compressor. The addition of at least a 2 gallon tank is recommended to run an impact wrench for short bursts of air needed to lossen and tighten 6-8 lug nuts. Simplicity? That's why I like the fixed mount compressor. Less impact on cargo capacity as well. Sure, a Power Tank will knock about a minute off of filling each tire on the trail. But, how much time have you really saved when you realize (After helping air-up others) you're the one left going to the shop and paying for a refill? $.02 -Barry | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Member Username: Bri Post Number: 220 Registered: 08-2002 |
Barry, I too don't know much about this topic. Do the compressors that you mention run strickly off the battery or electric system? | ||
| Barry (Barry) New Member Username: Barry Post Number: 5 Registered: 02-2003 |
Brian, The big VIAIR 550C comes with a 40A relay. You would want to wire directly to the battery with the appropriate gauge wire for length of run. -Barry | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Member Username: Bri Post Number: 221 Registered: 08-2002 |
Hmmm definitely seems like a good alternative to the airtanks and likely cheaper in the long run. I would guess that a dual battery setup might be a plus for this is it true? Make sure you post some pictures when you get it mounted, I'd love to steal some ideas ;-) What are your thoughts on the battery? Brian | ||
| Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Member Username: Adtoolco Post Number: 87 Registered: 08-2002 |
This is what I did. 20lb tank off ebay $120. 150psi fixed regulator from Bigairsystems.com for $39. Went to Home Depot for a hose and connectors $40. Total investment $200 for a 20lb CO2 system. -Chris | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Senior Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 116 Registered: 02-2003 |
any one out there done this the right way and have a compressor running off the engine with a tank? that's what i want to do... rd | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1082 Registered: 02-2002 |
Chapman: No reason you can't use your keg tank, although, if your regulator has a fixed output pressure, it may not be high enough for tire service, but you can find regulators real cheap if you look around. Crawford: You probably don't want to use an oxygen tank as the fittings won't be appropriate for a CO2 regulator, and you may or may not be able to have it filled. You MAY be able to buy a cheap tank from a pawn shop and just exchange it for a good CO2 tank at your gas supplier, I would check with them first. Now that I re-read this, I can't believe I said some of the things I did. I would not want to be around you if you're filling your tires with a potentially explosive (OK, so oxygen merely SUPPORTS combustion, but it does itvigorously!) gas mixture. When tires begin to heat up, the chemistry can become very complicated and I would not wish to have this occur in an oxygen-enriched atmosphere. Don't fill oxygen tanks with carbon dioxide. <significant> Once an oxygen regulator, always an oxygen regulator. Once a fuel gas regulator, always a fuel gas regulator. There are exceptions, but these are good safety rules to live by as compressed gas tanks are very dangerous, even when you know what you're doing. So far, I've been lucky. Peace, Paul | ||
| Milan (Milan) Member Username: Milan Post Number: 151 Registered: 10-2002 |
Rob, I looked at it but it's going to be a pain in the butt. There's not much room at all on the engine so the bracketry will be tricky. I might just turn my AC into OBA. Or I also figure if I add a compressor then it'll be same as stock or rotary Sanden and I'll try to put it between the AC and the manifold cover on top of the engine, just so I don't have to run another pulley. York seems too big to fit anywhere without major mods. | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Senior Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 119 Registered: 02-2003 |
milan, my range rover is not a serpentine belt and i see a few places it could fit. i recon this puts me to an advantage in this regard. i'm a long way off from doing this though... maybe next year rd | ||
| A. Ali (Alia176) New Member Username: Alia176 Post Number: 1 Registered: 03-2003 |
I use a Sanden air cond compressor for air. It's belt driven and does a decent job for tire inflation, lockers & impacts. It won't run any other air tools unfortunately. I'm using both sliders plus a 2 gallon air tank for storage. An air/oil separator is used for recycling the air back into the sysem. Overall it's been a reliable system. I've seen a couple of Sandens that uses no oil inside the crankcase. Once in a while the owners spray oil into the suction side before leaving for a trip! | ||
| Milan (Milan) Member Username: Milan Post Number: 153 Registered: 10-2002 |
I have a Sanden on my Heep and I made a set of brackets for my buddy's Sanden. It was easy to make but that's because with the I6 engine there's quite a bit of room and neither had an AC to begin with. My 96 has hardly any room to fit additional compressor. Like I said a Sanden will fit (anything can fit if you cut things off) but the bracketry will be a PITA. My first Sanden lasted over 2 years with no oiler and no oil in the crankcase. I only oiled it occasionally (once every 3 to 5 air up sessions of 4 to 12 tires) or when it started to squeak a little. I used Slick 50 initially and then DuraLube. DuraLube seems to work quite well. I'd still have that compressor but I blew it up because I forgot to turn it off after air up and with no oiling it siezed when the RPMs got high running up a hill. Siezed one piston, broke a cylinder wall, bent a connecting rod, jammed the rod in the wobble plate and chewed it, and worst of all cracked the crankcase. Quite a mess. That one cost me $400 new. My current one I picked up in a junkyard for $25. | ||
| Tom Hyslip (007) Member Username: 007 Post Number: 143 Registered: 03-2002 |
I received the on on board air kit today from www.4wheelair.com, and it is very nice. I got the 20lb tank with mount and regulator for $305. Very nice setup and fast shipment. | ||
| Chris Browne (Chris_browne) New Member Username: Chris_browne Post Number: 15 Registered: 02-2003 |
Which one of the air compressors will fit under the hood, thinking about where the jack etc are 1: Thomas 2: ExtremeAir 3: your call! Or where else would you mount them? | ||
| Milan (Milan) Member Username: Milan Post Number: 161 Registered: 10-2002 |
The Thomas will fit. Get the 1/3 hp version. The Extreme Air would fit too. The nice thing about electrics is that you can fit them in the vehicle (in the back I guess). Oasis TrailheadAir (http://www.oasisoffroad.com/trailheadAirCompressor.html) is just a York with 12V motor attached. I think it's too big but anything can fit really. It's just what do you remove/move or how inaccessible do you want it to be. I thought York alone was just too big but that's for the engine mounting. Now you're adding a 12V motor to the package but it can be mounted anywhere. I guess the Thomas or Extreme I'd try to mount under hood first. But really any of these I'd mount in the back. The Trailhead being the best choice. The cheapest solution would be to convert the stock AC but I'm not ready to get rid of it yet. | ||
| Barry (Barry) New Member Username: Barry Post Number: 7 Registered: 02-2003 |
Well,went for it today and ordered the ExtremeAire Portable kit. Should arrive in a week or so. When time permits, I believe it will convert nicely to a fixed mount in the passenger side storage box. -Barry | ||
| Chris DeJesus (Mudy_ovl) New Member Username: Mudy_ovl Post Number: 40 Registered: 02-2002 |
I have seen dual regulators (with guages) for use on CO2 tanks. Has any one used this setup to control the pressure to two pieces of equipment? I would like to run lockers with one regulator set at the lower required pressure. The second regulator would be set at a higher pressure and used for tire inflation and tools. Does this sound plausible? Anyone running this setup? Chris | ||
| A. Ali (Alia176) New Member Username: Alia176 Post Number: 14 Registered: 03-2003 |
Barry, I'd be interested in reading their instruction manual. Can you fax/scan me a copy of it when you have some time (after you're done installing it)? thanks. | ||
| A. Ali (Alia176) New Member Username: Alia176 Post Number: 15 Registered: 03-2003 |
Barry, Never mind. I thought you bought the endless air unit. Sorry. | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1134 Registered: 02-2002 |
Chris: You can split the line at the gland and run two regulators so you can do what you've described. Admitting some degree of ignorance, I've been using compressed gases for nearly thirty years and have yet to see what you described. Can you provide a pic or a URL so I can enlighten myself? Paul | ||
| Chris DeJesus (Mudy_ovl) Member Username: Mudy_ovl Post Number: 41 Registered: 02-2002 |
Paul, there is one for sale on E-bay http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2515373612&category=25379 See if you think my idea still works. you would need to run the higher pressure immediately out of the tank and run the lower pressure line next. Chris | ||
| Bill Bettridge (Billb) Senior Member Username: Billb Post Number: 699 Registered: 02-2002 |
My .02 cents Chris Seems like you'd be better off getting a small tank (very small - like paintgun sized) to run lockers since they require no volume, just pressure, and then a full size tank for tires/tools. That way you're always sure lockers will work if you got into someplace where you need them to get back out. Also seems like an accident waiting to happen with that dual regulator setup - too bulky and prone to breaking IMO. Bill | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1141 Registered: 02-2002 |
Crhis: That regulator does what I had described using more elegant plumbing! It's just two regulators with one plumbed through the unregulated port of the first regulator. Bill: I don't disagree with you. Not all of my ideas are necessarily practical in their first iteration. Peace, Paul | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 539 Registered: 09-2002 |
Bill, i heard rumors or extremely rare cases of ARB plumbing leaking. In which case a small CO2 tank will go dry real quick peter | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 540 Registered: 09-2002 |
On the CO2 tank issue - there are big advantages and some disadvantages. Of the latter, you have to keep in mind that you are carrying a bomb in your truck. Having a warranty on it will not save it from exploding if it is left out baking on the sun. Still, I am willing to take this risk. One big reason is that you can seat the bead on a big ass tire in a single CO2 blast - something almost no compressor can do. You need to unscrew the schraeder valve from the stem, and fit the quick-disconnect directly over the valve stem. You wouldn't believe how large the gap it can take! | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1143 Registered: 02-2002 |
Peter: Don't your tanks have a pressure relief on the neck to vent if over-pressurized? Granted, if a tank of CO2 cracks open from the vent you have a few minutes of oxygen deprivation to get out before major damage occurs, also, the tank should start to freeze reducing the flow rate. Tanks that explode usually have had major damage done to them and it is most commonly physical not thermal damage. Most common, shearing of the valve, next most common is proven to have been someone striking an arc against the tank destroying the integrity of the steel around the point where the arc was struck. Yes, I've been forced to take an AGA safety course! The videotapes are incredible! Someday, I'll regale you with my stories of transporting hydrogen in an open pick-up along with tanks of nitrous, acetylene and oxygen-and I'm supposed to know better! Or, maybe the time I knocked an acetylene tank over shearing the regulator off in a shop with a wood-burning stove! Peace, Paul | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 545 Registered: 09-2002 |
Every time i go to my local welding supply store to refill the tank, i look at this picture of a car where a 2-lb bottle of CO2 exploded. Every panel of the car (except for glass that's inexistent) is curved outwards. And there's also an example of an exploded CO2 bottle on the shop floor. The dudes at the shop have no reasonable explanation for either - there IS a safety valve on the bottle. The store replaced my bottle with expired sticker with a new one, and all i paid was $15 or something as inspection fee. FWIW, I have a 20-lb aluminum bottle, and nowhere really to safely store it in the Disco, so it never comes with me on long trips. I'd rather have a 2-lb bottle mounted inside the rear door, with simple regulators like the ones here. peter | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1144 Registered: 02-2002 |
Curious. I have seen multiple tanks that were thrown into fires in drunken escapades-with the groans of disappointment when the reliefs opened! Even moreso when in my fire classes, the instructors have been very nonchalant about both compressed gases and drums of chemicals. I hope my halon fire extinguisher tank doesn't explode! | ||
| Reed Cotton (Reedcotton) Member Username: Reedcotton Post Number: 44 Registered: 01-2003 |
Several years ago I was driving down to Mexico in my 109. the weather was extremely hot, well over 115 degrees. My SCUBA tanks were in the back, and through an oversight were sitting over the diff. Suddenly I was pushed out of my driving stupor by a sudden and loud hissing noise coming from the back. I was really scared because I thought it was a propane tank for the camp stove de-gassing. Thankfully, after getting off the freeway, I found that it was a safetly plug on one of the air tanks. Kinda like instant air conditioning. The noise chilled my blood, the out gassing air chilled the cab down. Those air tanks carry quite a bit more preassure than a CO2 tank, and they have been known to explode, but usually only after they have been negligently handled in some way. The CO2 tanks are potentially dangerous, but so is 24 gallons of high octane gasoline that the truck has on it every day. -Reed | ||
| Edward Mah (Emah) New Member Username: Emah Post Number: 34 Registered: 11-2002 |
I have sold hundreds of scuba cylinders...high and low pressure and I also have a 15lb CO2 cylinder for off roading. There is no worries about the CO2 tank exploding while baking or anything else. That safety feature is built into the valve in the form of a burst disc. Should the internal pressure of the cylinder exceed the recommended max. cylinder pressure by 5/3, assuming; you have the correct burst disc, the disc will rupture and release the pressure inside the cylinder. Having said that, there is no real threat of it expolding if it heats up on you. Also, unlike scuba cylinders which is compressed air, the CO2 tanks are filled will liquid not gaseous materials. They only become a gas when not compressed. In the liquid form it is harmless. Air cylinders usually only explode when they are being filled unless of course they don't have the correct burst disc...which is something I occasionally see. I highly recommend the CO2 tank over the compressor...just my experience. Good luck with your choice. Ed | ||
| Joe Wooten (Joe_w) New Member Username: Joe_w Post Number: 2 Registered: 02-2003 |
While on the subject... I have access to a used RR classic tank and compressor setup left over from an air to coil suspension conversion. I am thinking about trying to install it as an on-board air supply for my '93 RRC. Has anyone tried to do this? Is it feasable or worthwhile? | ||
| Keith Kreutzer (Revor) Member Username: Revor Post Number: 160 Registered: 11-2002 |
I use the smallest Viair pump and a couple of tanks (2 gallons) under each side of the truck to fill tires. The tanks came from a local small engine shop off a small contruction compressor that died ... Cost $0 the viair pump was $100 a compact pressure switch for $30 (Grainger)keeps the pressure down and it only runs 8 amps once in a while and will fill 8 tires (32-11.50) pretty easily... At least as well as the York AC compressor with one tank I have on my Jeep Both are set to run to 120 psi. Yes my ARB does leak after a while, I wouldn't count on it without having a constant air supply on board | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1150 Registered: 02-2002 |
Joe: Everyone wants to try to use a Rangie compressor. The duty cycle is too low, the volume generated too low-shall I stop here? Go ahead and give it a try and let us know what your real world experiences are. this question arises quite often annd gets shot down for the reasons I reiterated, but give it a try. Paul | ||
| Joe Wooten (Joe_w) New Member Username: Joe_w Post Number: 3 Registered: 02-2003 |
Thanks Paul, I figured there must be a reason everyone doesn't do it! I don't usually have very high needs on the trail, just for airing up occasionally. By low 'duty cycle' do you mean that the pump couln't handle refilling the tank quickly? Do you think it would be worth it just for airing up the tires? | ||
| Andrew Clarke (Aclarke) Senior Member Username: Aclarke Post Number: 311 Registered: 10-2002 |
Keith, which viair do you have? I emailed them a week or two ago and they recommended the 350C which is a 100% duty compressor. Their smallest one listed on the web site is the 100c which is a 15% duty compressor. Is this the one you're using? How long have you been using it? What's the maximum number of tires you've filled with it at one time? How long does it take? I like the compressor idea, but it does seem a lot cheaper to pick up a 10lb co2 tank off eBay and a regulator from www.4wheelair.com. Last time I used my little Sears 12V thing to air up my tires it took me *40* minutes!!!! Geez. Thanks! | ||
| Keith Kreutzer (Revor) Member Username: Revor Post Number: 161 Registered: 11-2002 |
The reason you can get away with a little compressor is the tanks.. Otherwise you would have to deal with a much bigger unit... Typically you fill it once and you can do 4 32" tires depending on how far you aired down, in about 10 minutes... having the tanks under the truck also helps because they are now out of the passenger compartment or on the roof... I used the 100C as a compromise... Fill the tanks before you leave and you can have make up air for the ARB and air up once without running the wee out of the compressor although in testing on the last Jeep we set up this way the guy runs it all the time without any trouble... I think it takes him 20 minutes to air up 4 37" tires to 28 psi that had been run at a trail pressure of about 7 PSI.. This one has been in place for 8 months... No trouble yet... | ||
| Milan (Milan) Member Username: Milan Post Number: 163 Registered: 10-2002 |
For comparison, 1 35x12.50R15 tire on 8" rim takes me 1 min 20 secs to go from 8 psi to 24 psi using the Sanden. 37x13.50/15 takes 2:30 from 3 to 25 psi. Edward Mah, could you elaborate on this "I highly recommend the CO2 tank over the compressor...just my experience. " ? Thanks. | ||
| Edward Mah (Emah) Member Username: Emah Post Number: 46 Registered: 11-2002 |
Milan, I'm not sure what it is you are asking or what to hear but I am simply giving my opinion to the origial question as well addressing Paul and Reeds concern about exploding cylinders. I have used the compressors before and I currently have a 15lb CO2 tank and think it suits my needs as well and my fellow club members. I prefer the CO2 because it cost less to purchase, maintain and replace if I had too. Compressors require mounting, constant maintenance, dual battery set-up is ideal, noisy and not as convenient to share, etc. With my tank, you can fill many 33" tires quickly, you can pull the tank out and share it (portable), use it with any other car because it isn't fixed, for around the home projects, no maintenance needed, parts are cheap if I ever have to replace something, more durable because it's just a tank...not fine moving parts inside, etc. The list goes on. I have merely given my opinion to the above question. I am not discounting anyone else's opinions nor comments on the compressors...to each his own. I hope that I have satisfied your question. Thanks, Ed | ||
| Jason T. Barker (Speedminded) Member Username: Speedminded Post Number: 105 Registered: 10-2002 |
2.5lb. aluminum tank *NEW* $12.50 w/ 4 hours left: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2514842611&category=11876 Not sure how long it would last for tires though? Someone above mentioned using a tank for painting, wouldn't that freeze the paint??? | ||
| Andrew Clarke (Aclarke) Senior Member Username: Aclarke Post Number: 313 Registered: 10-2002 |
OK Keith, that's interesting about using the small Viair compressor. Yeah I guess as long as you use your shop compressor to air up the tanks before you leave, and don't have to air up anybody else's tires besides your own, then it does just fine. | ||
| Keith Kreutzer (Revor) Member Username: Revor Post Number: 163 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yes the little compressor is a compromise... But for under $100 (with tanks) it out performs the ARB and keeps the tanks filled nicely even with an Air Locker> I have a York on the Jeep (easy as factory brackets come cheap) but the thought of not taking up limited cargo space in the Disco (kids have to have some place to sit) and keeping an 800 psi bottle out of my truck makes me happy with the set up... I've seen what happens when a CO2 bottle decides to "POP". Not like I'm scared of it but it takes up space and I wouldn't mount it under the truck outside the frame rails. I'll post some more Disco fit Pics once i get this last set up finished, but here's one i had...Nice fit?  | ||
| Milan (Milan) Member Username: Milan Post Number: 164 Registered: 10-2002 |
Edward, That's what I wanted to hear. I was just asking as I did not understand what you meant by better. I disagree on the maintenance and need for dual batteries, though. Once mounted, compressors are maintenance free, especially the electrical, constant duty, oillesss variety. I also see the benefit of compressors on the trail. Once we suffered 8 lost beads and 2 leaky tires on 2 vehicles alone. One tire was repeatedly coming off the rim until we found the bead had formed an ice shield and never really sealed properly. Had we had only a tankfull of gas or air, we'd be toast as one try before we cleared all the ice off the bead had us pumping air in there for 15 minutes trying to seat the bead. Sure, error or stupidity on our part for not seeing it earlier but had we had finite amount of air, we would have not been able to fill the tire eventually. I agree on portability of CO2 and I definitely subscribe to "whatever tickles your pickle" philosophy. So I'm not arguing, just debating. | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1157 Registered: 02-2002 |
Me afraid of compressed gases in the vehicle-not me! In moving my lab once,I carried a full tank of hydrogen, a big tank of acetylene, a tank of nitrous, and a blended Argon/CO2/He tank, along with some smaller "Lecture" bottles of less friendly things, like Chlorine, come to think of it, there might have been a 100# tank of Cl2 also. I would hate to think what would have happened had I been rear-ended that day. Oh yeah, it was summer and very warm out. It did not scare me nearly as much as the time I found 100 grams of picric acid in a histroical museum. The local SAC base shut down the town and detonated it at the air base. I didn't mean to cause that much trouble. Peace, Paul | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 552 Registered: 09-2002 |
Milan, you could pop 8 beads back up in no time with a 2-lb CO2 tank. Trying to pump air into the tire for 15 minutes to seat the bead is not the smartest thing One Q - does anyone have an idea on whether a CO2 tank could be used while laying on its side? I don't know how the regulators are made and what effect the contact of liquid CO2 with the regulator may have. peter | ||
| Chris DeJesus (Mudy_ovl) Member Username: Mudy_ovl Post Number: 42 Registered: 02-2002 |
Peter, you don't/can't/shouldn't use the tank while it is sitting on its side. The concept of the CO2 tank is to use the gas state CO2 that collects at the top of the tank due to vapor pressure. You want the regulator at the highest point wrt tank so you are extracting gaseous CO2 not liquid CO2. As you use this gas up, more liquid changes to the gaseous state to compensate. The volume of CO2 increases many many times over when it changes from liquid to gaseous CO2. That is why you get more work out of a CO2 tank verses an Air tank. Chris | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 553 Registered: 09-2002 |
Chris, you're absolutely right on the concept of the CO2 tank. however, i was wondering about the consequences of running it on its side. The regulator - as far as i understand how it works - just keeps the pressure on the outer side of it at certain level, choking its inlet when/if the pressure at the output goes beyond the set value. It should work the same way regardless of whether it works in gaseous or liquid environment. At the regulator's output pressure (say, 90 to 200 psi), and room temperature, CO2 cannot exist as liquid, so it turns into gaseous state - at the same pressure as one would have it if the tank was upright. So, I have a _feeling_ that I shouldn't run it on its side, but see no physical reason against it. peter | ||
| Chris Browne (Chris_browne) New Member Username: Chris_browne Post Number: 21 Registered: 02-2003 |
How effective is the little viair the 350 at filling tires? I really like its dimensions, 100% rating. and its ability to fit where the jack goes | ||
| Milan (Milan) Member Username: Milan Post Number: 165 Registered: 10-2002 |
"Milan, you could pop 8 beads back up in no time with a 2-lb CO2 tank. Trying to pump air into the tire for 15 minutes to seat the bead is not the smartest thing " LOL true. However, this is how it went. Try to pop the bead on, takes a while to get tire to take air, then it starts taking and bead starts to come around but never pops, then you discover constant leak. Not enough to make everybody stand around yapping and thinking the tire's filling and enough not to fill the tire worth 2 lbs. The CO2 bottle would have been empty, I tell you. | ||
| Andrew Clarke (Aclarke) Senior Member Username: Aclarke Post Number: 314 Registered: 10-2002 |
Peter, according to http://www.4wheelair.com/setup.htm: "ALWAYS secure the cylinder in an upright position with a secure mounting device" There was another page I saw somewhere recently that went into more detail on why, but essentially Chris DeJesus is correct from what I know. Running the bottle on its side can cause the regulator to freeze because it can start having to deal with liquid CO2 instead of gas. | ||
| Olaf Kilthau (Olaf) Member Username: Olaf Post Number: 67 Registered: 11-2002 |
Since not every person/vehicle can plan for or carry items for every contingency, and we shouldn't venture out alone...one person carry a tank and the other have a quality compressor. I hope that this solution will end this thread full of cackling hags. | ||
| Edward Mah (Emah) Member Username: Emah Post Number: 47 Registered: 11-2002 |
Shut up Olaf!! See if I fill your tires again!! And by the way, where's my money? On the more serious side, CO2 remains in the liquid form within the cylinder because under pressure the gas is liquified. Once it enters the regulator, it becomes a gas because the pressure is reduced. The reg. steps down the 1800 PSI to a workable, lesser pressure that can be controlled by a 2nd valve control. The cylinder should be in the upright position when being used and stored too. One last note, if you aren't utilizing a high flow regular and you continuously use the CO2 tank, it will begin to freeze at the reg. and eventually the outside of the tank which is not a good thing. You will accumulate moisture on the inside of the tank making it more suseptible to corrosion on the inside and prematurely reducing the life of the tank which will required it to be tumbled. Not a big deal but the cylinder can only handle several tumbles before it will be condemned because it will no longer pass a hydro test. That's all the cackling for now. | ||
| Reed Cotton (Reedcotton) Member Username: Reedcotton Post Number: 48 Registered: 01-2003 |
One other feature you might get by running the tank/reg on its side is a whole bunch of dry ice. This is pretty much how they make the stuff at ice houses etc. They do it by "pouring" liquid CO2 onto a plate. This is done by having the bottle upside down when it is opened. I used to watch them make it at the ice cream store. -Reed | ||
| Tom Hyslip (007) Member Username: 007 Post Number: 144 Registered: 03-2002 |
Why does the tank have to be in the up-right position when stored and used? | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 556 Registered: 09-2002 |
Chris, Edward, and Andrew - none of you said any more than said "the tank should be stored and used upright." Repeating this over and over does not explain anything. Regulator will freeze, big deal. Even the high-flow regulator will start freezing if you use impact wrench for 15 minutes straight. There was a reason for my question - a 10lb CO2 bottle can be stored under the floor of the rover, between the framerail and door sill. If one has rock sliders, protection is not a problem. peter | ||
| Craig Kobayashi (Koby) Senior Member Username: Koby Post Number: 287 Registered: 02-2002 |
Peter- Storing the tank on its side should be no problem. Using the tank while it's on its side is a problem for the reason Chris stated above:
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| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 562 Registered: 09-2002 |
is it just me being unable to express myself? Craig, repeating the same thing is not the same as giving the reason for it. I guarantee you that regardless of what CO2 you are extracting, you will have gaseous CO2 at the output of the regulator, with the set regulator pressure. The reason must lay with the regulator design and safety. | ||
| Ho Chung (Thediscoho) Moderator Username: Thediscoho Post Number: 69 Registered: 02-2002 |
PLEASE ADVISE ---------- Ho Chung | ||
| Craig Kobayashi (Koby) Senior Member Username: Koby Post Number: 288 Registered: 02-2002 |
Peter- Turn the CO2 tank upside down and open the regulator. Have fun with the frostbite. Say hi to your doctor for me. | ||
| Chris DeJesus (Mudy_ovl) Member Username: Mudy_ovl Post Number: 43 Registered: 02-2002 |
Peter, Let's try it this way. If/when liquid CO2 passes through the regulator it will change phases to a gas due to the pressure drop. This is in a sense boiling the CO2. This boiling requires lots of energy from the surrounding environment and will cause ambient moisture to rapidly condense and freeze to the regulator. True, some cooling occurs when you run the gas phase of CO2 through the regulator, but because the CO2 is already in the gas state, no boiling occurs and ambient moisture condenses at a much slower rate. To repeat Craigs info, storing on side is okay, but turn tank upright when discharging any CO2. Chris | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 563 Registered: 09-2002 |
Chris, the evaporation of CO2 does take some energy, and when the tank is upright, it happens at the liquid-gas interface. For a tank user, it appears as a ring of condensation near the level of liquid CO2. And, since it is spread over a large surface area, there is little danger of a frostbite. When the same thing happens inside the regulator, it may not get enough heat from the air and its temperature may plummet pretty low. It is unclear whether it would affect its performance or not. I think I found where the danger lies - there is a potential for a hydraulic jump inside the regulator when the valve gets open. It may rupture the regulator, with more damaging consequences than a frostbite. If the regulator is ripped off its thread or pipe, liquid CO2 will be propelled out by 1200-1800 psi of pressure inside the tank. ok, no CO2 tank under the floor of the disco... | ||
| Ho Chung (Thediscoho) Moderator Username: Thediscoho Post Number: 71 Registered: 02-2002 |
forget the disco, put it under the jeep. ---------- Ho Chung | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 565 Registered: 09-2002 |
i can't - it's going to be on my way when i'm replacing the transfer case (routine maintenance) |
