| Author | Message | ||
     Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 64 Registered: 01-2003 |
Interesting news story about what happens if you aren't prepared. This road is near hole in the rock if you've seen the video. Its been in the news out here, seems like they want to scare those of us that go into the back country. http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Mar/t03052003.asp | ||
| John Moore (Jmoore) Senior Member Username: Jmoore Post Number: 451 Registered: 10-2002 |
That's sad! I do hope that it does scare those who might venture into the back country unprepared as those two obviously were. | ||
| Brian Kluge (Brianwi) New Member Username: Brianwi Post Number: 18 Registered: 10-2002 |
Man, another sad story. If you want more depression read the book Into the Wild by John Krauker (a writer for Outside Magazine). He mainly recounts the life of this young guy who is found dead in Alaska, but also talks about others that have died trying to be 'at one' with nature. Good book and a quick read. | ||
| Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Moderator Username: Axel Post Number: 71 Registered: 02-2003 |
It is a tragedy, but I have to wonder what the hell these people were thinking. Going into the Utah desert in the winter alone in one truck without any food, water or proper clothing is just sheer stupidity and a disaster waiting to happen. When I was living in Norway, it was a popular passtime to go crosscountry skiing up in the mountains in the winter. Because of the inherent danger in that, the media would run a safety rules campaign each ski season (Fjellvetts reglene for the Scandinavians out there) , and they still do, I believe. I think these rules apply just as much to offroading, especially in remote areas, so here they are: 1. Do not go on a long/remote trip without having the necessary experience and training. 2. Let someone know where you are going and when you expect to be back. 3. Pay attention to the weather and weather forecast. 4. Listen to experienced outdoorsmen (and wheelers) 5. Be prepared for breakdowns and bad weather, even on a short trip. 6. Bring a map, compass, GPS and cellphone 7. Do not travel alone. 8. Turn around before it's too late, it's no shame in returning the way you came. 9. When caught in bad weather, save your strenght and make a shelter if necessary. The last one applies more to skiers, but in extreme conditions a good shelter such as a properly constructed snow cave can be warmer than a car. As for number 5, when out in a remote area I never ever hit the trail without carrying enough water and food for at least a week. I also always have a sleeping bag in the truck. You just never know what that half day trip is going to turn into. Also, in winter conditions, the number one concern is to keep dry. If you get wet, you will have a very hard time keeping your body heat contained. That's my observation from growing up in Norway and spending 9 months avbove the Artic circle in the Norwegian military anyway..... There are a couple of items I always carried in my backpack when cross country skiing in the mountains in Norway, and I keep them in the truck now. These can save your life one day: - Map and compass. Know how to use them, the compass comes in very handy when you can't get a GPS signal or the batteries are dead. - Plastic whistle: If you are very exhausted, you will not be able to yell out for rescuers. Yelling uses a lot of energy, and your voice don't carry far. A whistle uses less energy, and the sound carries farther. Don't use a metal whistle, it will freeze to your lips. - Emergency blanket. It don't take a lot of room, but helps conserve your body heat. - Collapsible shovel. It can be used to dig a snowcave if needed, and can also be used to dig your truck unstuck. Useful to make a latrine, too. - Emergency rations. A couple of granola bars or pieces of chocolate is a good source of energy. - Lighter or matches. I smoke, so I always carry that anyway, but non-smokers should carry it as well, for obvious reasons. - A couple of candles. It's a source of both light and heat if you need to abandon your vehicle and make a shelter. There is not always wood to be found, and you don't want to make a fire inside a snow cave anyway. - Cell Phone. Don't get a false sense of security from a cell phone, you can't get a signal everywhere. But it can save your life if you do have a signal. Feel free to add other items that I might have left out. - Axel | ||
| TPH (Snowman) Senior Member Username: Snowman Post Number: 276 Registered: 12-2002 |
Brian- I have read the story you described. I believe the young man mis-calulated a rising river he needed to cross to return to civilization. He starved to death in his shelter. Oddly he had only a .22 to kill game. He had taken photo stills of himself that are very haunting, considering the story. S- | ||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 66 Registered: 01-2003 |
True, very sad. Brian, very good book. Axel, Interesting, this time of year the warnings they work on getting out in the news is for avalanches. Lots of good warnings, people just don't listen to them enough. Your guide lines for safety are great. It amazes me out here how easy it is to get trail condition information from the district BLM or park service offices, and the number of people who don't even think of checking conditions before they head out. | ||
| M. K. Watson (Lrover94) Senior Member Username: Lrover94 Post Number: 704 Registered: 02-2002 |
Axel great list,I would add one thing that you did mention, sorta, WATER, WATER, WATER, WATER! even in the dead of a snowdrift water is important. just my 2.5 canadain! mike 704 w | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 70 Registered: 11-2002 |
Fucked up , thats all I can say.... Very fucked up... Kyle "Blow me" | ||
| Jack Parker (Jack) Member Username: Jack Post Number: 101 Registered: 03-2002 |
Axel - You nailed it. | ||
| Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Moderator Username: Axel Post Number: 72 Registered: 02-2003 |
Mike, you are right, water is an important item, too. Eating snow won't do much good, you will burn a lot of energy melting it in your mouth, and it will cool your body down eventually. Eating snow is bad, bad, bad.... To quote the late Frank Zappa: "Watch out where the Husky's go, and don't you eat that yellow snow..." - Axel | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 494 Registered: 09-2002 |
very very sad indeed. I put my family at risk once because I was not prepaired. Luckily nothing happened and we were safe but I will never jepardize myself or family like that again. | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Member Username: Bri Post Number: 241 Registered: 08-2002 |
Good list Axel, I carry more than this when I am backpacking or climbing, some of them are (again add to the list if you have something). It all goes in the rig on any trip (well maybe other than to the grocery store). Some other things that I carry: --Headlamp/flashlight --Knife --First aid supplies --Extra clothes --WINDPROOF light or matches --Bandanas --Duct tape Another good list is the 10 (or so) commandments of mountaineering: 1-Never get separated from your lunch 2-Never get separated from your sleeping bag. 3-Never get separated from your primal urges. 4-Carefully consider where your primal urges are leading you. 5-Expect to go the wrong way some of the time. 6-First aid above 26000' consists of getting below 26000'. 7-Never step on a rope. 8-Never Bivouac. 9-Surfer Girl is not in the mountains. 10-Never pass up a chance to pee. 11-Don't eat the yellow snow. 12-Experience does not exempt you from danger, physics wins. 13-Have fun and remember why you started. You know it is kind of ironic... People that are experienced take many things for granted as they become more and more experienced. This can be good if they constantly remember their rules. But with the confidence many forget. Some don't remember even their own rules until they have a truely life threatening experience. Into Thin Air, the story about the 1996 everest expedition is a fine example of how some of the most experienced people in the world make poor calls and end up killing themselves and others. They completely lost it with regards to #4. Many times just good common sense can be better than experience. For example the goal of climbing a mountain is NOT to get to the top, it is to get back down. Have fun thinking about other important items to keep in your kit. And always be prepared. Cheerio! Brian PS: Love that Zappa quote Axel! | ||
| Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Moderator Username: Axel Post Number: 73 Registered: 02-2003 |
Your list is very good, Brian. Mine is just a bare minimum list of items that are in the truck at all times. When I get ready for a trip, I pack much more, including the items on your list, too. If it was me getting stuck in the snow in Utah, I would probably be kicking back drinking coffee and building snowmen when the rescue party got there a week or two later. But that's me, I like to be prepared. Not because I am paranoid, it is just that I have spent a lot of time under extreme winter conditions, both when I was in the army and later when I was doing search and rescue. I have seen how quickly the weather can change and how violent it can become all of a sudden. I can't stress enough how important it is to be prepared. The Zappa quote is from "Don't eat the yellow snow" on the Apostrophe album. - Axel | ||
| Jaime (Blueboy) Senior Member Username: Blueboy Post Number: 569 Registered: 02-2002 |
"album"??? Jaime | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Member Username: Bri Post Number: 245 Registered: 08-2002 |
Man... I got rid of too many Zappa albums around '90 when I decided never to move any more vinyl accross the country. Suddenly I miss them. Joes Garage used to crack me up. I'll have to remember to update my CD collection with some Zappa. Funny that mountaineers and Zappa live by some similar rules. ;-) No kidding about the list. I constantly modify, take things out that I haven't used for a while or at all; and add things that I have missed. This is especially true about my backpack items. It is wise to be prepared, when on day hikes I usually take my full pack. People laugh at my pack until they need a hat, coat, gloves first aid item or cup of hot tea. All of a sudden they are very greatful that I am overly prepared. They also learn a valuable lesson. And of course... as soon as I decide to take my fanny pack and be light someone needs something that I do not have. You can never be too prepared. | ||
| Evan Price (The_big_daddy) New Member Username: The_big_daddy Post Number: 11 Registered: 02-2003 |
"I'm moving to Montana...going raise me a crop a dental floss" I'd like to add large plastic garbage bag(s)to your lists.. Raincoat,hypothermic shelter ,solar still ,fire starter(try it sometime), and a bucket full of other uses. And of course you can pack your shit out rather than leave it on the trail . Evan | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Senior Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 131 Registered: 02-2003 |
Ehh.. man that story made me sick. can't image how that would feel to leave someone. i probably would end up staying until the end, shit, i don't know. i hope i never do know. rd | ||
| John Moore (Jmoore) Senior Member Username: Jmoore Post Number: 454 Registered: 10-2002 |
Jaime, an "Album" is generally a cohesive collection of songs created by an artist meant to be enjoyed as a unified work or artistic statement. Not something to be ripped or burned piece-meal.  | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Member Username: Bri Post Number: 246 Registered: 08-2002 |
John, exactly what are you saying? | ||
| John Moore (Jmoore) Senior Member Username: Jmoore Post Number: 455 Registered: 10-2002 |
I was just giving Jaime some shit, he didn't seem to know what an Album was. | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Member Username: Bri Post Number: 247 Registered: 08-2002 |
Good, for a second there I though you were dissing Zappa and was gonna sling some shit your way. ;-) Afterall not many rock and rollers have composed songs for and directed the London Philharmonic. Anyway, maybe Jaime will come back so we can properly highjack this thread... | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 75 Registered: 11-2002 |
I would like a certain Marines take on this thread...... The whole thing is borderline unbeleiveable... Kyle "Blow me" | ||
| EricV (Bender2033) Member Username: Bender2033 Post Number: 154 Registered: 08-2002 |
I would recommend adding these to any trail kit:  | ||
| Lawrence Tilly (L_tilly) Member Username: L_tilly Post Number: 93 Registered: 02-2002 |
Here in NH the big "idiot magnet" is Mt. Washington. For a short while my wife and I lived and worked in a resort town a little south of the mountain (North Conway). I worked at the front desk of a 4 season resort and at least once a month I'd have some fruit cakes come to the front desk in shorts and tee shirts and ask what the quickest way to get to Mt Washington was 'cause they're "gonna hike it". We'd tell them and politely ask if the rest of their gear was in their car. They'd usually respond by pointing out the fleese pull over tied around their waist and say "and we've got a couple canteens of water in the trunk". We'd try to remind them that just because it's 87 degrees there in the valley, you're in an entirely new world when you start heading up. I've driven up that mountain in the summer and found 2' long icicles coming out sideways from the weather station (home of the fastest recorded winds on earth). I'd try to encourage them to stop into the Appilacian Mt. Club's lodge at the base before heading up and hope someone there will slap some sense into them. People die on that mountain every year and it's usually because they were clueless (at least they're removed from the gene pool). As a result of such stupidity, NH park service evaluates every situation after they finish rescuing someone. If it's determined the rescue was because the person failed to take proper steps and precautions, then they are billed for the entire rescue operation (they usually make a public service statement as part of the settlement). VT has started talking about similar actions. -Lawrence Lawrence | ||
| Lawrence Tilly (L_tilly) Member Username: L_tilly Post Number: 94 Registered: 02-2002 |
As a side note, I agree w/ EricV's post above, especially the Army manual. Although I've not read the Army version, I have spent time w/ the AF counterpart. Military manuals are good, no-nonsense, no bullshit, directives. They don't assume you have an unlimited credit line w/ LLBeans and are carrying 250 lbs of gear. The AF manual assumes you just hit the ground with nothing but your parachute and a knife, and both of those are optional. I'm sure the Army manual is at least as good. In one of our "former lives" my wife and I were each air crew in the AF and attended USAF Survival School and Resistance Training up in Washington state. I was lucky enough to go there in early November, so I had a little taste of winter survival techniques. I can't stress enough the note above about don't eat snow as a water source. By volume snow is actually not a lot of water, and your body has to waste so much of its energy (heat) to melt it that you will likely put yourself into hypothermia. You can survive a lot longer without water than you can without body heat. -Lawrence "US Air Force...the next best game from Milton Bradly for ages 18 and up" - quote from a baseball cap I bought while touring a Navy base. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 76 Registered: 11-2002 |
WEll I dont think an army manual was actually needed. Woulda been nice to take some brains along with them on that trip. That alone , above all the other stuff would have probably saved her.... I still aint believing that the dude left her there under a tree instead of in the nice warm Jeep..... Kyle "Blow me" | ||
| Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Moderator Username: Axel Post Number: 75 Registered: 02-2003 |
Lawrence, I know exactly what you are talking about regarding Mt. Washington. I hiked it with a couple of friends from work about 10-12 years ago. Don't recall all the placenames now, but we hiked in through the valley at the backside, and up the mountain. Not the side where the road goes, but the other end. This was in the end of April. We were coming up from New York, and since we did not know what the conditions was going to be, we were prepared for the worst. As I recall, we even brought snowshoes. Some people were laughing at us for that one. As it turned out, it was nice and warm down in the valley, so we ended up dressing pretty light for the hike through the valley, keeping the warm clothes in the backpacks. The backpacks were a bit heavier than they coud have been, but once we got up to higher elevation and hit fog and wind, it sure was nice to be able to pull my anorak w/wolf fur lined hood out of the backpack........ As for the Utah situation, Kyle is right. It was not necesary for both of them to try and hike out. The dude should have set the girl up with a nice shelter back in the Jeep, then he shoud have tried to hike out on his own. Eating snow on the way out must have helped depleting their energy, too. - Axel | ||
| Eugene (Eugene) New Member Username: Eugene Post Number: 9 Registered: 02-2003 |
Axel, I have a feeling you probably hiked Mt. Washington via the Tuckerman Ravine trail. The Presidentials are simply beautiful. Even after moving to NJ from Boston, I still drive back on weekends to hike up there. There's a significant temperature difference between the base of the trail and higher elevations. For anyone who plans on hiking or skiing on Washington, here is a link to the weather conditions on the summit: http://www.mountwashington.org/ -ema | ||
| David Marchand (Dmarchand) Member Username: Dmarchand Post Number: 105 Registered: 09-2002 |
Hey Lawrence, ever read "Not without peril" by Howe? Very interesting read. Provides details on the 150 years of misadventure and death on Mt. Washington. Too many people forget how easily they can get themselves into trouble in the presidentials and the rest of the White mountains. I think it's largely due to the close proximity of civilization. False sense of security for too many who come ill equipped and totally unprepared. Hell, North Conway is over run every weekend with shoppers. It makes me sick. | ||
| Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Moderator Username: Axel Post Number: 76 Registered: 02-2003 |
Eugene, Tuckerman Ravine trail sounds familiar, I think that was it. I would be able to tell for sure if I look at my maps, but I don't have them here in the office.... - Axel | ||
| Paul D. Morgan (V22guy) Senior Member Username: V22guy Post Number: 1282 Registered: 02-2002 |
Great Thread! This is a perfect example to show my wife why I pack all kinds of extra stuff into the pig before heading into the mountains. During that AOA winter trip, if someone opened up the rear cargo bins they would have found water, blankets, powerbars, matches, etc. Lawrence, having grown up in Washington, it's not uncommon for a mountain pass to be closed due to heavy amounts of snow. I bet that 80% of the locals there keep emergency gear in their trucks year round. As far as the article in concerned: If that was Ann Marie and I in that Jeep, I would never have left the vehicle. Yes, I would have done everything possible to turn around, but once you are stuck, it becomes survival time. Instead of all that hiking, I would have attempted the following: #1 gather a shitload of dead brush, broken tree limbs for a big ass smoke producing fire. How would I light it? Easy, gas from the Jeep and the cigarette lighter or spark from the battery. Keep the fire going, this is most important. People will see smoke and ask WTF? They will eventually come check it out. #2 Axel and others are right; you need water to live. Use a makeshift container of any sort (Coke can), or make one out of jeep pieces (Rip the glove box out of the thing) to melt snow over the fire. #3 We would not leave the vehicle. It is easier for people to spot you next to a big pice of metal than if you were in the middle of a forest standing next to a tree. Granted, I wasn't there. But damn, I wouldn't have let that chick die. Paul | ||
| Jack Parker (Jack) Member Username: Jack Post Number: 104 Registered: 03-2002 |
I sure have enjoyed this thread a lot more than some of the other recent crap in "non-tech". Sorry, had to rant a little there. Anyway, I'm in a resort town at 9100' just off the Continental Divide. You wouldn't believe the stuff we see here. Some people are very cool, ask good questions and take suggestions. Others seem to know it all, and it's obvious they are putting themselves in peril. We've posted a "Do You Have..." sign reminding all of what they should carry and expect with changing weather conditions, the effects of altitude, increased UV exposure, and encountering wildlife. Last spring, I watch a man with a camera walked to within 50 feet of a grazing moose and her calf. Instead of charging, the mother and calf moved on (damn). I told him what a dumbass he was, as he could have been trampled, and he also was bothering the wildlife. He looked at me like I was the moron. So, again, I've enjoyed following this thread, and I think the guy had other motives. I would never leave my wife or daughters in that situation without making sure they could survive. But, I would have not ventured off unprepared either. | ||
| Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Moderator Username: Axel Post Number: 77 Registered: 02-2003 |
Here is a follow up story from Salt Lake Tribune: http://www.sltrib.com/2003/mar/03072003/utah/35972.asp - Axel | ||
| Paul D. Morgan (V22guy) Senior Member Username: V22guy Post Number: 1283 Registered: 02-2002 |
Damn Man, 300 yards? | ||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 67 Registered: 01-2003 |
That area is a very remote part of Utah. Peoples reactions out here then to be, its sad, but they should have been better prepared. No matter what we think he did in that situation (i.e. leaving the jeep and her), panic and reactions to their instincts were to blame. They should have done a lot of different things, but the main problem was general incompetence in dealing with the outdoors. Its kind of sad how ignorant people are when it comes to the outdoors. Those Mount Washington stories are great, I used to go and ice climbing in Huntingtons ravine all the time when I lived in Pa. I miss hiking in those mountains, I have completed 5 full presidental traverses of the White Mountains in winter. I have also failed 3 times trying the same traverse. The mountains out here in Utah are great, they are just to hard to travese, because of massive avalache danger in winter and because most all of the peaks are technical rock climbs to get over them. No good traverses like in New Hampshire. Sorry seeing those posts got me home sick. | ||
| Eugene (Eugene) New Member Username: Eugene Post Number: 11 Registered: 02-2003 |
As 300 yards sounds very close to us, it is probably not even noticable to someone experiencing hypothermia. Your speech is slurred, mental skills decrease, and all you want to do is crawl under a rock and sleep. Due to hypothermia, there have been cases of hikers found 50 feet from their tent with no clothes on. It's sad. One tip for those who are hiking in extreme conditions (whether it be the Presidentials or anywhere else): Please do not wear jeans! Jeans are almost entirely cotton and have no moisture wicking ability. Once they get wet, they take forever to dry and suck up body heat. In the end, you might put yourself at risk for hypothermia. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 77 Registered: 11-2002 |
"Grass dont grow on a rolling stone". At the point that it was obvious that the Jeep wasnt going to get out on its own I would have talked to the girl about the heater and the gas situation. I would have talked to her about not falling asleep in the truck with it running. I would have taken whatever clothing she didnt need (She has the heat after all). And I would have hauled ass while I was still healthy and had energy from living a fat domestic life. Then you turn one chance into two chances. Someone finds the truck they find her and track you. You find someone and you send them to the car. I just cant comprehend how leaving the girl under a tree was an option in the guys mind..... Kyle "Blow me" | ||
| Greg (Gparrish) Senior Member Username: Gparrish Post Number: 1107 Registered: 04-2002 |
And don't plan a mountain crossing or off road venture in a rental car........... How can you really ever be prepared for what you may find in a rental car? Even if it is a land rover, do you want to trust your life to something that budget or avis rents out to people every day? | ||
| David Marchand (Dmarchand) Member Username: Dmarchand Post Number: 106 Registered: 09-2002 |
I think the hard part is everyone on this thread is speaking to an audience that is already "converted". We all believe in being prepared. The issue is the rest of the world to some extent. | ||
| John Kruger (Johnnyk) Member Username: Johnnyk Post Number: 173 Registered: 02-2002 |
They should have stayed by the vehicle and burned the spare tire. It will burn for a long time, and throw huge nasty plumes of smoke in the air someone would have seen. I know it is not good for the environment, but it could have saved their lives. I still remember a club trail ride a few years ago, the leader got the whole group stuck overnight. Most of those in this group plan about as well for the trail rides as they do when they run to the mall. It has become standard practice for them to be more prepared. It is ashame that this happened. John www.teampb.com | ||
| Blue (Bluegill) Senior Member Username: Bluegill Post Number: 2026 Registered: 02-2002 |
You're right - they should have stayed with the jeep. Even after it ran out of gas and could provide no more heat from the heater, it is still a shelter. As a last resort, they could have burned the whole jeep and attracted everyone's attention. and don't forget the cyalume lightsticks! Mandatory equipment for any trip. Get a few colors and you can put on a light show if you're lost. Lighter than flares and easy to pack. I hiked a few miles into a box canyon a couple of years ago with a friend who has impaired vision. There was no trail and we had full packs on for a couple nights stay. We got a late start and had to pack in after dark with no moon. Four light sticks around each leg right above the boots with duct tape, and one stick on the top of each pack - you wouldn't believe the amount of light we produced. It was pretty damn funny, too | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 78 Registered: 11-2002 |
Man , they arent in the parking lot of the walmart down the street. Winds and weather can make what you think is huge plumes into little more then smoke from a ciggarette out there. Look at some of the pics we have of that country and tell me if you think there are people out there looking There was a quote ina movie about climbers "You are above XX feet , you are already dying!" The same gos for you in that situation. You can roll the dice and let "fate" do its thing , or you can be proactive and get your own ass out. The longer you stay the less capable you will be to get yourself out. So lets hear it from the tire burners and such. What happens after that doesnt work and another day has passed without food and water ? Wait another ? From the moment that truck got stuck they both started to die. The way I see it you have a choce to wait for someone else to save your ass , or save your own.... Kyle "Blow me" | ||
| Blue (Bluegill) Senior Member Username: Bluegill Post Number: 2028 Registered: 02-2002 |
My premise is that they were known to be missing, and someone was looking for them. Black smoke against fields of white snow are likely to be seen. Besides, you get to burn a jeep. Obviously these numb nuts couldn't think beyond "it's in 'D' but it won't go" so they were doomed. I feel bad for them, but my pity has it's bounds. Sure, you or I would've waltzed outta there complete with sunscreen, chapstick, and a portable CD player with backup batteries, but these two ended up spending the night under a tree in their tshirts. They should've stayed with the jeep and worked with what they had - ripping up the carpeting and wearing it, pulling fabric & padding off the seats, make a signal fire, have sex to keep warm, etc. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 80 Registered: 11-2002 |
I hear you blue but that is only obvious contrast if someone is looking. You been to allot of remote places out there. Think about it. And whats with the "Spending the night under a tree" ?? Man , there is no stopping. I guess it just depends on how bad you wanna live.... Kyle "Blow me" | ||
| Christopher Boese (Christopher) New Member Username: Christopher Post Number: 19 Registered: 10-2002 |
This has a feeling of inevitability about it. I fear that, even with all the survival stuff most of us would carry, these particular people might have met the same end. It's not just having the equipment and supplies, it's knowing how to use them, and having a feeling for the geography of the backcountry and for how to move through snow. | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Senior Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 136 Registered: 02-2003 |
this reminds me of this story: click here | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 82 Registered: 11-2002 |
If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around , does it make a noise ? If a Jeep burns in the middle of nowhere and no one is looking does it burn bright ? "Blow me" | ||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 68 Registered: 01-2003 |
Good story Rob Funny thing about Utah is you are in the middle of no where almost all of the time. You can be ten minutes away from Salt Lake and be in terrain and conditions that make you, and you alone responsible for your own fate. Growing up in the east and moving out here was an education in how remote some places can be. In Pa you almost always find a way out. Hell even on Mt Washington there's a building occupied 365 days a year on the top and shelters on the mountain run by the AMC. I agree with Kyle. What the best course of action would have been was to try and free the jeep, but if all else fails, be proactive and seek help, don't wait for it to come, because it won't for a long time. Southern Utah is very lonely, if you spend time in it, it's almost freaky how there's nothing other than rock and dirt is around you. Having said that, I think those two where just plain idiots about the outdoors. We have had a rash of people walking over cliffs and falling hundreds of feet in the National Parks recentilly. Interesting fact was, as the two in the jeep where, they all seem to be coming from the east coast. Something about you east coasters, makes you guys unsafe ... | ||
| Axel Haakonsen (Axel) Moderator Username: Axel Post Number: 78 Registered: 02-2003 |
Oh, I don't know, I have made it out of Utah alive every single time.... But I agree with you, most of Utah is very remote. I love that part of the country, but I am fully aware that it is very easy to get yourself killed out there. You just have to minimize the risk by being prepared..... - Axel | ||
| Tony DiFranco (Nhrover) Member Username: Nhrover Post Number: 42 Registered: 11-2002 |
Lawrence, I live just outside of manchester and go to Mt Washington several times a year. How true about the clueless people that try to hike so ill prepared. I have seen 100+ mph winds and snow/hail in the late spring and early fall. Some people have no common sence when hiking. by the way if your interested in wheeling shoot me an e-mail. Tony D. NHRover | ||
| Kim S (Roverine) Senior Member Username: Roverine Post Number: 426 Registered: 03-2002 |
Sad story. Very sobering. Great thread about the need for preparedness. About being prepared, I'm almost paranoid. Especially when it comes to an activity or a place relatively new. However, at times, the comments about sometimes becoming complacent with more familiarty & experience can be equally true. .."it happens when you least expect it ..." Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences. I'm heading out shortly myself, and it inspired me to completely refill (and add to) my first aid kit. | ||
| Blue (Bluegill) Senior Member Username: Bluegill Post Number: 2030 Registered: 02-2002 |
I remember reading somewhere that if you iron Utah out flat, it would be bigger than Texas. I also think that we must test the burning jeep hypothesis... I've been in plenty of remote places in Utah & my own backyard (AZ), but it's hard to be lost with a GPS in your hand. | ||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 69 Registered: 01-2003 |
I never realized the value of a gps until I move to Utah. Utah has the highest average elevation of any US state including Alaska. | ||
| Reed Cotton (Reedcotton) New Member Username: Reedcotton Post Number: 32 Registered: 01-2003 |
Kyle- --From the moment that truck got stuck they both started to die.-- I might take it one step further. These two started to die when they didn't mention to anyone the direction they were going. If it hadn't been for dumb luck, they wouldn't have been found until after the Spring thaw, and by the time someone found their Jeep, the bodies may have been lunch meat for the scavengers. Blue - If you get in a cold situation like these guys did, the batteries in that GPS probably won't last the day because of the temperature. A map and a compass is still the best backup. Plus the map can also be used as a fire starter. I think everyone agrees that these two were clueless, but once you start getting cold (really cold) even the best trained arctic survival expert can start making mistakes. Just be careful out there. -Reed | ||
| John Kruger (Johnnyk) Member Username: Johnnyk Post Number: 175 Registered: 02-2002 |
I mention burning the tire, not only to signal for help and to keep warm, but to give them hope. It is funny how a fire, even a smelly burning tire, can give someone comfort. Plus a tire will burn for days. They did what a number of deceased travelers have done, they got lost and tried to find their way out. I wish everyone who ventures off the paved road would understand a simple thing. If you get lost it is much easier to find a stationary object than one wandering around. It is easy to look at this situation and say "I would have done this, or that", but in the end it really comes down to the fact that someone died as a result of a casual outting in a remote location. The guy learned a valuable lesson, and those who read the story may remember it when they are faced with a similar situation. It is a just a shame how the casual outting was concluded... John | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 264 Registered: 08-2002 |
Andy, If you are ten minutes out of SLC, then you could easily walk back. Want remote, go down to the Henry's thats remote. Utah is no more remote than any place and you can always tempt fate if you are not prepared. Brian | ||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 74 Registered: 01-2003 |
True Brian, if I was ten minutes away from slc I could always walk back. Definitally the Henry's are way different. I just remember growing up in PA, if you got lost or stuck, you could always end up walking and running into a major road somewhere. I grew up in central Pa and you had to work to get into as remote of areas that you can here in Utah with about ten minutes work. I live in the Avenues or the north part of SLC, I walk my dogs up by the foot hills and leaving from my door ten to twenty minutes I can be in some very remote areas, that in PA would have taken a good hour or so drive north. I'm anal, I carry extra clothing, headlamp and make sure my wife knows were I'm hiking even if I'm going with my pups on the well marked trails. Your right you can be screwed if your not prepared even in the middle of a city. I just think Utah is way more remote than PA, even northern PA. I could be jaded too, I moved out west to get to big mountains and easy access to the back country, now that I'm here and I love it to much to want to live anywhere that I don't have that freedom. |
