| Author | Message | ||
     Jared Schnelle (Jared) New Member Username: Jared Post Number: 29 Registered: 09-2002 |
Hey guys, I've been without my LR for about a month now trying to get it running, but luckily I havnt sold my old car yet. Anyhow I was having a very general "Crank - no start" problem. I went through the Lucas Constant Energy Ignition System diagnostics from the workshop manual and I found some odd readings in the coil with a volt meter. So, I replaced the coil today. (I opted to buy from parts america at $60 versus the 120 from the dealership, but it took _Ten_ days to get it to me). While I was in town today, I purchased a fuel pressure gauge. So, when I returned home I did some testing with the fuel pressure gauge, and this is really odd. When I turned on the ignition, the system would pressure up to 40 psi, then drop to zero in about 5 seconds. Obviously there was no pressure when ignition was off. I read on another LR board that I should restrict the return flow from the pressure regulator to see if the problem was pumpside or return side. I had the same loss when I crimped the line with the needle nose. Considering this is a 95, and it has 150k, I decided I might as well replace the OEM fuel pump since that is what the signs were pointing to. Bought the fuel pump, and installed. Installed the new coil while I was at it. Now when I turn ignition on, it pressures up to 40 psi, and down to zero in about 20-30 seconds. What's going on here? What do I need to focus on next, I need some help guys. Thanks, Jared | ||
| Roland Kutasi (Disco1) New Member Username: Disco1 Post Number: 21 Registered: 10-2002 |
The pressure you are reading on ignition is correct. Have you installed the fuel isolator in the line to your gauge properly. Sounds to me this could be your problem. Incidently, I hope you have fitted the isolator in the engine bay and not inside your cabin. Regards, Roland | ||
| Jared Schnelle (Jared) New Member Username: Jared Post Number: 30 Registered: 09-2002 |
What do you mean by the fuel isolator? I'm reading the pressure from the fuel rail which leads to the injectors. You say the drop in pressure from 40 psi to zero _while ignition is on_ is correct? We bought the pressure test kit to test the fuel pressure on a dodge ram we own(which also isnt running, go figure) and it builds pressure to 40, and when you shut it off, the pressure stays around 35 psi. Thanks for the clarification. | ||
| Mike Rupp (Mike_rupp) Member Username: Mike_rupp Post Number: 158 Registered: 02-2002 |
A couple ideas: Are you sure the fuel lines going in/out of the pump are properly fitted? When I replaced my fuel pump, I had a small leak at one of the brass fittings connecting the pump line to the fuel line. Leaky injector(s)? Try to check the lines going from the pump and back to see if you can isolate a leak. Do you smell gas anywhere? | ||
| Bill K (Bill_k) Member Username: Bill_k Post Number: 147 Registered: 08-2002 |
I hope you checked your injectors before you replaced the pump. With your mileage, injectors are probably the problem. Most likely, more than a couple are bad. | ||
| Jared Schnelle (Jared) New Member Username: Jared Post Number: 31 Registered: 09-2002 |
I did not check the injectors before replacing the pump. This was a very sudden problem though. It's as if a piece of hardware failed, and considering the mileage, I figure if it wasnt the pump, then it needed to be replaced anyways. Can you refer me to a good process for testing the injectors, or would it be best to remove them and have them tested at a shop? I cant quite tow it into town and have them work on it. Thanks again, Jared | ||
| Jared Schnelle (Jared) New Member Username: Jared Post Number: 32 Registered: 09-2002 |
The next step in the workshop manual if it fails the pressure test, is to replace the regulator, but I just called the rover dealership, and it's 152. $152 for a vaccum pump seems mighty friggin expensive. Anyhow, hope we get this figured out, heh  | ||
| Bill Bettridge (Billb) Senior Member Username: Billb Post Number: 686 Registered: 02-2002 |
Jared - if you check on the net or in your local yellow pages - you will find plenty of places testing/rebuilding injectors. Remove and send to them - it's usually pretty fast turnaround. Even if you have other issues - after 150K they probably need cleaning and new seals/screens. Bill | ||
| Jared Schnelle (Jared) New Member Username: Jared Post Number: 33 Registered: 09-2002 |
Ok, so it's agreed that it's a good idea to get the injectors checked, but do you really think that this would cause the sudden problem I had? I thought if was an injector "going bad" there would be symptoms previous, but I really had no problem beforehand. The only problem I have that I can think of off the top of my head, is that when it is cold outside and the car hasnt been started it wont want to accelerate correctly until the engine warms up. If I were to go outside(and the car had not been on for hours) and it was warm, I would not have this problem, but it could still be leaky injectors I suppose You guys know better than I do! Ok, so what else should I be looking into, other than injectors? Anything? Does the fuel pressure regulator go out often? Are there tests for this other than "crimping the return line hose"? Thanks for all the help! | ||
| Joey Cox (Joey_cox) New Member Username: Joey_cox Post Number: 26 Registered: 02-2003 |
I would bet your problem is the fuel pressure regulator. I had a jeep that the pressure regulator went out - same symptoms. When I took the pressure regulator out, it seems as though a piece of dirt or something had gotten lodged inside. If I were you, I would replace the regulator. | ||
| Kevin Didion (Morerover) New Member Username: Morerover Post Number: 1 Registered: 02-2003 |
Following is a systematic diagnostic approach to supplement the procedure in the workshop manual: Step 1. Install fuel pressure gauge. Turn the ignition key to position II while observing the pressure gauge. Expected reading 2.4-2.6 bar or 34-38 psi. Pressure drop max 0.7 bar or 10 psi in one minute. Results: 1A. If no fuel pressure, then check fuel pump. If pump runs, then check for plugged inlet, plugged filter, or plugged fuel line. If these are okay, then replace pump and retest. If pump does not run, then check for power and ground; repair if missing. If pump still does not run, then replace pump and retest. 1B. If pressure is initially okay, but drops off, then go to Step 2. 1C. If pressure is too high, then repair restriction in regulator or return line. 1D. If pressure is too low, then check for restriction in supply line or fuel filter. If these are okay but pressure is still low, then with pump running (engine idling), gently pinch return hose. If pressure rises to specs, then replace pressure regulator. If pressure is still low, then check for defective fuel pump or blocked fuel pump inlet. 1E. If pressure is okay, then go to Step 3. Step 2. Block the fuel supply line. 2A. If pressure holds, then there is a leak upstream, possibly the check valve in the pump. 2B. If pressure still drops, then also block the fuel return line. If pressure holds, then the pressure regulator is defective. If pressure still drops, then the infectors are leaking. Step 3. With the engine idling, the fuel pressure should drop from its initial pressure (observed in Step 1) and remain at a constant 2.5 bar (36.25 psi) above the inlet manifold pressure. Expected reading is about 2.1-2.2 bar (30-32 psi). 3A. If pressure does not drop accordingly, then repair the regulator or vacuum supply. 3B. If idling pressure is okay, then the fuel delivery system is operating properly. | ||
| Jared Schnelle (Jared) New Member Username: Jared Post Number: 34 Registered: 09-2002 |
Thanks again guys for this help. Now, how in the world would you block the fuel supply line? I could block it at the fuel filter where it goes from metal to rubber, but my question is, does the fuel pump have an internal pressure sensor as well? If I'm blocking the fuel supply, and it does not, I'm worried I might damage it from back pressure. Ok, and for the return line, to block it, how would I go about that? The only spot I know of is where the fuel line meets the pressure regulator. What's the best method of "blocking" it? You guys are great! | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1099 Registered: 02-2002 |
Jared: Don't worry about blocking the fuel line. The only place it is convenient to do so is adjacent to the fuel filter. It should build up to op pressure and shut down. I'm curious as to which hose you crimped on the return line. Were you crimping the vacuum line or the fuel return line? I'm thinking it is likely the regulator over an injector as the injector(s) would have to be leaking mighty badly for the fuel pressure to fall so quickly. Also, the engine would have runn very poorly leading up to this situation, whereas the regulator coulld have been failing and finally failed (how long did you say you'd been working on this, a month?) a month ago. Also, I'd be willing to bet that if you weere to take your regulaltor into your local NAPA store, they wowuld have a genneric replacement from a domestic or more common (Japanese) import that wowould be a direct bolt-on replacement. I feel your pain as I also have a high miles Disco I that is often confounding me. I'll be swapping in a cleaned set of injectors here in a week or two, I'll let you know how it turns out. Peace, Paul | ||
| Jared Schnelle (Jared) New Member Username: Jared Post Number: 35 Registered: 09-2002 |
Thanks a ton Paul. I'm one of those "learn it as you go along" guys, when it comes to cars. I didnt realize the return pump for the fuel system was a vacuum pump at first, and yes I was crimping the vacuum line, which I understand now would do _nothing_ good, it'd just simply keep the pump from working, heh. I see now that it's a solid metal fuel line from the outlet of the pump all the way back to the tank. I'm going to take your suggestion, and take the regulator up to the local parts stores and see if I can get a domestic one. And yeah, this has been more than a month long project, but that is due in part to the fact I had another vehicle and the parts were taking a long time to ship. Thanks again, Jared | ||
| Patrick Hartigan (Patrick) Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 102 Registered: 02-2002 |
Same problem here. not sure if it's the fuel pump or the injectors. But, since it's a 97, it doesn't have a fuel pressure regulator. can one of those be added in the engine bay? By the way - the rover is for sale, $8750 or best. Please help. | ||
| Jared Schnelle (Jared) New Member Username: Jared Post Number: 36 Registered: 09-2002 |
I think I'm almost there. I replaced the regulator today and I checked out the pressure in the fuel line. It went from 45 to 30 in about 2 minutes, then continued to _slowly_ drop. I turned the ignition on again and it'd drop pretty fast to zero, but this now I can hear an audible hiss like pressure is leaking. It's a tad late tonight to finish the investigating, but I'm going to go ahead and replace the rubber lines that run from the regulator to the return line tomorrow(about 3-4 feet max), and put on new clips, but I think this should get me working. FYI I got the regulator for 29.99 at the local parts store. Sure beats 150.00 if it works. I'll let you know tomorrow! | ||
| Jared Schnelle (Jared) New Member Username: Jared Post Number: 37 Registered: 09-2002 |
Well, we looked at it a tad closer, and the pressure regulator we bought isnt an exact match. The O-ring is about .3mm smaller than the OEM and we're still getting a pressure leak. I removed the regulator, and held my finger against the fuel rail after the last injector and it held pressure(BTW 40 psi is a lot more than you think). Anyhow, the problem has to be regulator or on, so we are probably going to end up getting the OEM version for 85 from the internet and get that installed. I'll keep ya up to speed. | ||
| Jared Schnelle (Jared) New Member Username: Jared Post Number: 38 Registered: 09-2002 |
Ok guys, it does seem to be an issue with the overall size of the regulator. The O ring was too small and the outlet from the regulator was about .5mm too small as well. If I hold my finger on the outlet of the regulator, it seems to hold pressure much better than with a straight piece of tubing connected. The new OEM replacement should be here tomorrow, so I'll update once I get everything else installed. | ||
| Jared Schnelle (Jared) New Member Username: Jared Post Number: 39 Registered: 09-2002 |
Alright, need some more help from you fellas. Replaced the OEM fuel pressure regulator and it now holds pressure. It's staying at about 25 PSI, whereas the workshop manual calls for 35-40 psi normal operating. I replaced the fuel filter to make sure there's no blockage there either. It's still crank, no start, but I _do_ have a spark at the spark plug(new coil), I have fuel pressure(albiet, a tad low), a new fuel pump, and pressure regulator. Any suggestions to go from here? I'm going to try to jump it just to make sure the battery hasnt run a tad low, but it's still cranking fine. It could also be flooded, but I'm not sure. I do notice a gargling sound at the very end of the fuel pump's power cycle when turning on. It sounds like there's some air in the lines. I refit the old fuel pump and I noticed the same sounds with it. Any ideas/suggestions? Thanks so much, Jared | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1135 Registered: 02-2002 |
Jared: Does it have the same pressure with both pumps? Usually, the lower limit listed by the factory is a magic number beneath which, the engine ain't gonna start, nor run. The fact that you have no spark past the coil inndicates a secondary ignition problem, something between the coil and the plug-that limits things to the cap/rotor/wires/plugs. Gurgling-make darned sure you don't have a leak where air is beinng introduced to the system. This is likely to be a difficult project as the pump will no doubt cycle off just as you think you're getting close to the problem. Peace, Paul | ||
| Jared Schnelle (Jared) New Member Username: Jared Post Number: 40 Registered: 09-2002 |
Paul, I do have a spark at the spark plug wire, so I'm assuming it's not an ignition problem. I noticed an odd fluctuation in the fuel pressure actually. If I key the ignition on, and it doesnt make the gurgling sound, it'll pressure up to 40 psi. If I do hear the gurgling sound it'll just drop to zero pretty darn fast. Any hints on locating the leak? I noticed the little cap that holds the fuel pump down was on _really_ tight, and we've tightend it quite tight as well with a screwdriver / hammer. There is a rubber o ring sorta thing that fits around the fuel pump, is this only to keep fuel out of the car, or does this also serve as an air-tight seal? Should I replace this, eventhough it seems fine? One odd thing, the old fuel pump sinks nicely in the fuel once I put it in the tank, but the new oem one wants to float out. -Jared | ||
| Jared Schnelle (Jared) Member Username: Jared Post Number: 41 Registered: 09-2002 |
Ok, since I'm getting good at replying to my own threads, here goes. I loosened the orange/red ring which the manual has a torque spec of 35 lb/foot, and it no longer makes that odd sound. I wonder if I had it tightened too much and something was scraping, or the fuel pump was at the very bottom of the tank. Anyhow, it's giving me good pressure now, 35 psi, and no gargling, but still no start. This is super super odd. It smells like gas pretty heavily, so I still think it may be flooded. I'm going to let it sit overnight, and give it a try tomorrow. If no go, I'm going to yank off the cats and try to start it. We just replaced a bunch of stuff on our dodge ram and the crank/no-start was a clogged catalytic converter. Considering I have 2 converters, I doubt that is the issue, but it's worth investigating. Any other ideas would be greatly appreciated as usual. Thanks, Jared | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1140 Registered: 02-2002 |
Jared: The fuel pump is supposed to sit on the bottom of the fuel tank. The springie thingies are there to allow it to float up if you should hit something with the tank. I'm not going to comment on the clogged converters as I'd expect you would have noticed that before the other problems arose. Pull the plugs out, dry them up, reinsert and see if it will start. It is very late to be asking this question, but what was the condition that began this odyssey? Peace, Paul | ||
| jerry d quintana (Exjeeper) New Member Username: Exjeeper Post Number: 24 Registered: 02-2003 |
y 1995 had the exact same symptoms hard to start didnt run well until warmed up. The dealer took a month to figure it out. BAD fuel injector. wasent leaking all of the time just every so often. They had checked all the injectors and missed the leak. It was found by a fresh tech who hadnt looked at it yet. But they let me drive a new discovery for a month for free adn cut the bill in half. | ||
| Jared Schnelle (Jared) Member Username: Jared Post Number: 42 Registered: 09-2002 |
Paul the problem which began this little trip of mine was just a crank no start. I was at the store one day, and it didnt want to start. It finally did. I drove home, and had no problems for a few hours, I went to a friend's house and I was going to drive the group to get some food, but it wouldnt start, since then, it's been dead The odd thing about the clogged converter on our dodge, was it was very very sudden, which took me by suprise. It ran fine the day before, then just died. It got a tad farther along in the cranking process than the disco did though. I'll go dry the plugs, give a few things a whirl, and more likely than not, pull the injectors and have them inspected/repaired. Thanks, Jared | ||
| Jared Schnelle (Jared) Member Username: Jared Post Number: 43 Registered: 09-2002 |
Ok, We've made some good progress. I removed all spark plugs, cleaned, and put them back in. Didnt seem to help. I called a local workshop, and they suggested pulling plugs, cleaning, and turning the engine to blow the excess fuel out. I did this, and it didnt seem to help, at first. I disconnected the power to the fuel pump, since I didnt see any sense in blowing new fuel out of the cylinders. I put everything back together, and left the fuel pump unplugged. After a few cranks, it started up and ran for about 10 seconds. I must have had a buttload of fuel in there. I reconnected the fuel pump and it started up, but it's pretty darn rough, as it's not wanting to idle for me. I let it heat up, and burn off all the crud it had in there for about 15 minutes. I drove it around front, killed it, went inside, and now it wont idle, so I have a little bit more troubleshooting to do, with a different problem, but we'll see how this goes. Thanks again. | ||
| Jared Schnelle (Jared) Member Username: Jared Post Number: 44 Registered: 09-2002 |
Case Closed! WHEE! Ok thanks a ton all you guys. I pulled the IAC valve(stepper motor), cleaned it with some carb fuel, and it's idling now. As a precausion, I'm going to go ahead and get my fuel injectors inspected, and also take the rover by the dealership to see how much they'd charge to adjust the idle. I know it's not a hard job, but they have the replacement parts necessary. Thanks again. |
