| Author | Message | ||
     Nick Bellistri (Nickbell) Member Username: Nickbell Post Number: 50 Registered: 11-2002 |
While i was looking for places to by some Stainless bolts online i came across a site which sells ti bolts. i was wondering if any body had any experience w/ them. i know there are some metalurgy (sp) experts lurking around. most of the ti stuff i have and liek. i use ti ice climbing screws and ridden some ti road bikes. all of which are great, but expensive | ||
| phil (Powerslide) Member Username: Powerslide Post Number: 61 Registered: 11-2002 |
Aerospace technology. Excellent stuff if you really need them. You can even buy titanium exhaust systems nowadays for automotive applications. | ||
| TPH (Snowman) Senior Member Username: Snowman Post Number: 291 Registered: 12-2002 |
Ti bolts apply nicely to bikes because of the strenghth/weight ratio and a ti bike frame is great to ride, I got one myself. But I am lost as to the advantage on misc. truck bolts and what's the advantage on an exhaust? The price must be extremely high to machine and build. Personally I would think stainless would be fine. | ||
| Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Member Username: Adtoolco Post Number: 88 Registered: 08-2002 |
personally as a crazy machinist, i dream of replacing nearly all steel componants on my rover with titanium and aluminum ones. stronger yet 30% lighter. that would be sweet. it would be expensive and time consuming...but it could be done. | ||
| Paul D. Morgan (V22guy) Senior Member Username: V22guy Post Number: 1284 Registered: 02-2002 |
Yes, Ti is lighter and stronger. But, to use Ti fasteners in areas that you access often is a waste. Ti fasteners have a tendacy to strip out and can be a real prick to remove; even with an extractor kit. As mentioned in other threads of this board: if you use Ti, you must be careful of who or where you get it from. Snow you getting any riding in up there? Someone turned the rain machine on down here and it just won't stop. | ||
| TPH (Snowman) Senior Member Username: Snowman Post Number: 292 Registered: 12-2002 |
I hope to start road riding (cyclocross bike) in the next two weeks. The roads are presently clear but it's still very, very cold! Right now it takes longer to get dressed then the ride usually lasts. S- | ||
| John Moore (Jmoore) Senior Member Username: Jmoore Post Number: 464 Registered: 10-2002 |
Paul, here in Albany, we had rain earlier in the week, but a few inches of snow yesterday. I bet the rain hurt the conditions, but with the 100"+ we got this year, and the "Xtreme" cold most resorts are makin' plenty of new snow. Come on up! | ||
| TPH (Snowman) Senior Member Username: Snowman Post Number: 293 Registered: 12-2002 |
Bring on the rain. I want to see the ground again. Enough is enough! S- | ||
| Paul D. Morgan (V22guy) Senior Member Username: V22guy Post Number: 1287 Registered: 02-2002 |
I would love to do some snowboarding up there John. And Snow, it's suppoed to be 65F tomorrow and 75F on sunday here. I'll be hitting some miles. Getting back to Ti fasteners, I had them all over my Specialized S-works road bike. But whenever, I had to take something apart, I had to scrap the fastener for a new one. | ||
| Jonathan Hensel (Nanoscale) New Member Username: Nanoscale Post Number: 9 Registered: 03-2003 |
Ti isn't magically strong, you can think of titanium alloys as: Strength of a an austenitic stainless steel (300 series corrosion resistant 'soft' stainless) with the wieght of an aluminum alloy (6061,7075 etc), with corrosion resistance surpassing both. Aluminum protects itself by building up an oxide 'skin' when exposed to air. Once you scratch that skin and allow the base material to be corrupted, it will corrode and fatigue in a marine environment. Although, the skin will grow back over the scratch unless immediately corrupted. Austenitic stainless steels(3XX, used on most stainless type nuts & bolts) are alloyed with chromium to achieve this same effect. The casting, forging or machining processes leave very trace amounts of ferrous material (iron, rustable) allowing stainless to rust if not taken care of. Find out if your SS screws are passivated or electropolished which "sucks" surface iron content out of the part. ...Ah geez, now I'm geeking out... Ti is the most chemically and biologically inert of the three. Pure titanium is not structurally sound so they alloy it with large percentages of aluminum molybdenum silicon etc to boost it's strength, but Ti's most valuable property is it's corrosion resistance, second only to it's wieght. Enough, sorry. Christopher you machined Ti yet? A real bitch isn't it. Want the real deal? try beryllium. Lightest metal element second only to magnesium, 2-4 times stronger than aluminum, absolutely badass shite. Don't actually machine it though cause the dust will kill you slowly and painfully (see: berylliosis). I have had flexures EDM'ed of this stuff it is really neat. | ||
| Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Member Username: Adtoolco Post Number: 89 Registered: 08-2002 |
Turning titanium isn't all that bad, but milling is a pain. Like everything else you have to follow the rules. Nickle alloys are much more difficult, but again if you follow the rules for machining them it shouldn't be too big of a problem. I have never cut beryllium but if its metal I can cut it  -Chris | ||
| Nick Bellistri (Nickbell) Member Username: Nickbell Post Number: 51 Registered: 11-2002 |
Now this is a stupid question so dont flame me... what is the difference btwn coarse thread and fine thread. is one more appropriate for automotive applications? | ||
| todd slater (Toddslater) Member Username: Toddslater Post Number: 230 Registered: 08-2002 |
Paul, Do titanium threads gaul the same way stainless does ? Not that I am going to nor would I dream of using it on the LR...more of an FYI for me. | ||
| Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) Senior Member Username: Deanbrown3d Post Number: 547 Registered: 02-2002 |
Jonathon,
Lightest structural metal, but not lightest metallic element, it falls after lithium, sodium, potassium rubidium and cesium. And just in case anyone is thinking of beryllium, heed Jonathon's advice since its the single most toxic non-radioactive element, by orders of magnitude. One whif of the smoke and you'll be dead in a few years. | ||
| Paul D. Morgan (V22guy) Senior Member Username: V22guy Post Number: 1289 Registered: 02-2002 |
Todd, The problem I have had with Ti fasteners is the top of the screw; be it Hex, Cruciform, or phillips. In reference to threads, they will strip out the anchor and/or helicoil just like any other. Dean, Beryllium is bad shit. There's a couple Helicopter Manufaturers out there that like to use it in their rotor systems. Nick, If you hold up a coarse threaded bolt next to a fine threaded bolt you notice the difference. Coarse thread: the thread depth is deeper and there are less threads per inch and v/v fine thread: consists of more threads per inch and not as deep. FYI, there are metric and US threads out there...There is a neat little tool out there called a 'screw pitch gauge' which helps you figure out the number of threads per inch. Paul | ||
| michael burt (Mikeyb) Member Username: Mikeyb Post Number: 162 Registered: 03-2002 |
ok...as a former bike shop tool driver, i will toss my 2 pennies in too... ti is great as a bike frame, i agree...but, it needs to be a ti alloy as pure ti breaks pretty easily (as a bike frame). that is also why i am actually a little paranoid about my ti ice screws...but i love how light they are! the secret is how and what with the alloy is comprised. the other thing...and i guess since this comes from a bike mech world and small fasteners are used, you had to (and i mean had to) use an anti-sieze to be able to take the fastener back out without torches and power tools. like i said, that may have just been in the small fastener/light wieght metals bike world, but i would keep that in mind when using ti fasteners... mike | ||
| Land Rover Certified Used A**hole (Jason) Senior Member Username: Jason Post Number: 337 Registered: 04-2002 |
Why Ti? For looks? For strength? For weight reduction? Can you really replace enough nuts and bolts with Ti to save any noticable weight? Or is that weight loss coming out of your wallet? Strength? Where are you worried the strength of stainless? Maybe if it is in question. go get some Grade 8 hardware and be done with it. Certainly don't compromise your safety by using underrated hardware just 'cuz it looks swanky and sounds cool when telling your neighbors about it. | ||
| Nick Bellistri (Nickbell) Member Username: Nickbell Post Number: 52 Registered: 11-2002 |
it just peaked my interest. i hadnt really thought about any of the above. the cost, in bulk was similar to that of the grade 8 stuff | ||
| Ron Brown (Ron) Member Username: Ron Post Number: 123 Registered: 04-2001 |
You are all insane. This is not an F1 ferrari it is a 5000lbs truck. Nothing Ti belongs on it. I can see it now, bolting on a 100lbs winch bumper with Ti bolts to save weight. Ron | ||
| Land Rover Certified Used A**hole (Jason) Senior Member Username: Jason Post Number: 340 Registered: 04-2002 |
You know, I usually keep about 35 psi in my spare...but on long trips, I'll drop the pressure in the spare down to 5 psi. That saves me 30 pounds in weight, helps to improve gas mileage. | ||
| Dean Brown (Deanbrown3d) Senior Member Username: Deanbrown3d Post Number: 550 Registered: 02-2002 |
You mean you don't use helium in the tires? | ||
| todd slater (Toddslater) Member Username: Toddslater Post Number: 232 Registered: 08-2002 |
The only problem with running helium in the tires is you have to remember to turn opposite | ||
| Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Member Username: Adtoolco Post Number: 91 Registered: 08-2002 |
"This is not an F1 ferrari it is a 5000lbs truck." In its current form, yes. But imagine your same Rover 25-30% lighter. Man I drool just thinking about it. Hard slams become less forcefull, better HP to weight ratio, less stress on drivetrain, climbing ability increaces. I could go on and on cause its just a dream, but the idea is an attractive one. -Chris | ||
| Jonathan Hensel (Nanoscale) New Member Username: Nanoscale Post Number: 10 Registered: 03-2003 |
Excellent! That was hella funny, true a couple hundred Ti bolts aren't gonna offset one single winch. You guys just hit an area of interest with me so I figured I'd throw that our there. Not going to make much of a difference in our trucks but does in high bandwidth nanopositioning systems. Absolutely Dean, assumption being structural base metal elements. Berrylium alloyed copper is nice stuff too but will corrode as copper does.. Also, run pure hydrogen in your tires it is lighter than helium...smoke anyone? | ||
| Land Rover Certified Used A**hole (Jason) Senior Member Username: Jason Post Number: 344 Registered: 04-2002 |
Hard slams become less forceful to the environment, but become more forceful on you (law of momentum). 25-30% lighter is 1250 - 1500 lbs...if you can afford that much weight loss through titanium, then maybe you can afford to go play in more exciting motorsports (WRC comes to mind). | ||
| Blue (Bluegill) Senior Member Username: Bluegill Post Number: 2038 Registered: 02-2002 |
LOL this thread cracks me up. How much do you think ALL the fasteners on your Disco weigh? Probably less than a hill of beans. Now if you're talking about re-engineering frame, engine, axles, etc, your efforts may add up to something substantial in both weight and cost. LOL | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 510 Registered: 09-2002 |
this thread cracks me up, too. let me tell you - for 8 years after college i worked at a place where there were cabinets full of Ti fasteners, in any size/thread/fashion etc. Of course, the first to try them on their cars were guys from the machine shop. One winter later (with rain, snow, ice, and salt on the road) ... Wherever Ti fasteners were used and exposed to the weather, steel nearly completely rusted out around them. The damage from a relatively short use from (really superior) Ti fasteners was by far greater than any possible benefits. so, go ahead and buy some, you'll enjoy it later! peter | ||
| Land Rover Certified Used A**hole (Jason) Senior Member Username: Jason Post Number: 348 Registered: 04-2002 |
Waaazat? Galvanic corrosion? | ||
| Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Member Username: Adtoolco Post Number: 92 Registered: 08-2002 |
"Hard slams become less forceful to the environment, but become more forceful on you (law of momentum). 25-30% lighter is 1250 - 1500 lbs...if you can afford that much weight loss through titanium, then maybe you can afford to go play in more exciting motorsports (WRC comes to mind)." So I return to my original statement: "personally as a crazy machinist, i dream of replacing nearly all steel componants on my rover with titanium and aluminum ones. stronger yet 30% lighter. that would be sweet. it would be expensive and time consuming...but it could be done." So as I dream I make plans...Lightening up the Rover would be nice but its on the lower end of my "to do list" but damn...25-30% is attractive. And yes with time and patience it could be done, and real deep pocket isn't nessecary in my case. But again just dreaming of the perfect trail rover. -Chris | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 512 Registered: 09-2002 |
Jason, yes, this is galvanic corrosion. crazy machinists, in general, have no grasp of this subject for people who build stuff for salt water environment, it becomes the second nature never ever have two dissimilar metals bolted together. With the only exception of sacrificial zinc pieces. peter | ||
| Land Rover Certified Used A**hole (Jason) Senior Member Username: Jason Post Number: 350 Registered: 04-2002 |
No, really...this has been a GREAT thread! | ||
| Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Member Username: Adtoolco Post Number: 93 Registered: 08-2002 |
Yea, being crazy I would replace that lousy steel with titanium so no worries about galvaniky corrosionium. Oh, I would also make it amphibious so lookout saltwater -Chris | ||
| Land Rover Certified Used A**hole (Jason) Senior Member Username: Jason Post Number: 351 Registered: 04-2002 |
'Cuz when Chris is done, that Rover could float in alcohol... | ||
| Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Member Username: Adtoolco Post Number: 94 Registered: 08-2002 |
whats really funny is no alcohol was used in the manufacture of this thread... this is how i think when i'm sober. | ||
| Kirk Thibault (Kirkt) Member Username: Kirkt Post Number: 44 Registered: 11-2002 |
The line repeated countless times to the bike people who had more money than they knew what to do with and wanted to replace every bolt and washer on their ride with a titanium one: "You'll save more weight and more money if you just take a shit before you ride." This was typically followed by the phrase "Steel is real." kirk | ||
| Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Member Username: Adtoolco Post Number: 97 Registered: 08-2002 |
"You'll save more weight and more money if you just take a shit before you ride." That would be at least a 1200lb shit, I don't think I got it in me. If you mean the "bull" type than it could be close -Chris | ||
| Nick Bellistri (Nickbell) Member Username: Nickbell Post Number: 55 Registered: 11-2002 |
lol kirk....steel is the best Nick B "ridin a steel eddy merckx" | ||
| Blue (Bluegill) Senior Member Username: Bluegill Post Number: 2083 Registered: 02-2002 |
I'm still wondering how you're going to shave 1200 lbs off your disco by replacing steel nuts, bolts, & other parts with lighter alloys... LOL on the bike comment Kirk. I had a couple full-suspension bikes in the mid-20-lbs range that I raced. After one race, I had almost 18 lbs of mud on one bike. Now what difference does all that Ti hardware make??? | ||
| Paul D. Morgan (V22guy) Senior Member Username: V22guy Post Number: 1306 Registered: 02-2002 |
Oh Man, it just keeps going and going...... There's no Ti on the Scapel, just good old-fashioned composite thermal plastic. Hey Blue, how much blood have you lost in an MTB race? I guarantee that coule equal the amount of weight savings you benefit from Ti! | ||
| Blue (Bluegill) Senior Member Username: Bluegill Post Number: 2084 Registered: 02-2002 |
My secret to victory was the ritualistic pre-race enema. | ||
| Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Member Username: Adtoolco Post Number: 98 Registered: 08-2002 |
I was talking ALL steel... Frame, axles, suspension, etc. You should read more carefully. -Chris | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Senior Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 151 Registered: 02-2003 |
sounds like you suffer from irritated bowel syndrome blue... | ||
| Blue (Bluegill) Senior Member Username: Bluegill Post Number: 2086 Registered: 02-2002 |
OK Chris. Do you have a toilet made of solid gold, too? | ||
| Jonathan Hensel (Nanoscale) New Member Username: Nanoscale Post Number: 13 Registered: 03-2003 |
So, now that we are on the corrosion topic, I have heard that there are aluminum body panels on these disco's in rust prone spots? Where would these reside? Obviously they wouldn't be in the area surrounding the damn alpine window that is rotting? | ||
| Kirk Thibault (Kirkt) Member Username: Kirkt Post Number: 46 Registered: 11-2002 |
Blue, My steel cross bike usually had the same amount of mud on it, but the vomit I left on the side of the course in minute 45 of a 50 min cross race made up for the difference in weight. it all evens out. kirk | ||
| Land Rover Certified Used A**hole (Jason) Senior Member Username: Jason Post Number: 367 Registered: 04-2002 |
Oh you crazy psycho-crossers...! | ||
| Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Member Username: Adtoolco Post Number: 99 Registered: 08-2002 |
No, but a stainless one with a mahogany seat & lid would be nice. No fru-fru bathrooms for me, I hate those, very emasculating. | ||
| Kirk Thibault (Kirkt) Member Username: Kirkt Post Number: 47 Registered: 11-2002 |
 | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Senior Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 152 Registered: 02-2003 |
the roof is steel on the disco and it's just good old fashion rust rd | ||
| Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Member Username: Adtoolco Post Number: 102 Registered: 08-2002 |
LOL! Nice one Kirk. | ||
| Land Rover Certified Used A**hole (Jason) Senior Member Username: Jason Post Number: 369 Registered: 04-2002 |
Okay, I get the gold...but all that green? Is that leftover eminence from Blue's ritualistic enema? | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 527 Registered: 09-2002 |
all this salsa and guacamole.... make wonders to unprepared easterners' bowels. | ||
| Paul D. Morgan (V22guy) Senior Member Username: V22guy Post Number: 1307 Registered: 02-2002 |
Oh My, It's the Holy Grail of Crappers!!!! I am so not worthy. | ||
| michael burt (Mikeyb) Member Username: Mikeyb Post Number: 163 Registered: 03-2002 |
most of the guys that brought ti bikes in our shop could spent their money more wisely on lipo. | ||
| Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Member Username: Adtoolco Post Number: 103 Registered: 08-2002 |
well I could afford to lose a few pounds | ||
| Blue (Bluegill) Senior Member Username: Bluegill Post Number: 2088 Registered: 02-2002 |
start eating Ti | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 532 Registered: 09-2002 |
... to be able to say "I even shit titanium fasteners!" | ||
| Christopher Dynak (Adtoolco) Member Username: Adtoolco Post Number: 104 Registered: 08-2002 |
Tastes great, less filling | ||
| michael burt (Mikeyb) Member Username: Mikeyb Post Number: 165 Registered: 03-2002 |
i will confess to having purchased a ti basso road frame back when i had access to employee purchase. put mavic's second generation electric shift on it...nice ride. ti has such an interesting ride quality that i have not been on my columbus tomasso in years. strange how i used to chant the steel is real mantra for years and now i have one steel road bike, one steel mtn bike and one ti road bike and three al mtn bikes...looks like i cant walk the walk...oh, well... | ||
| Kirk Thibault (Kirkt) Member Username: Kirkt Post Number: 50 Registered: 11-2002 |
Michael, I am a steel mtn/cross person as well, but a few years ago I purchased a Moots Ti road frame and I must admit, it is good for the aching body. | ||
| michael burt (Mikeyb) Member Username: Mikeyb Post Number: 166 Registered: 03-2002 |
yeah, kirk... they are pretty funny...i remember the first hill i hit. stood up on the pedals and thought...WHOA, SHIT that is one stiff frame, i had fears about how much abuse it was going to transmit up my spine...but in the end, i have to say, it has to be one of the most comfortable bikes i have ever been on. and as a former mechanic, i have been on an assload of bikes. big fan of ksyrium wheelsets too. those and crossmax wheels are the only ones i ride that i did not build myself. |
