| Author | Message | ||
     Shawn McKenzie (Shawn) New Member Username: Shawn Post Number: 33 Registered: 10-2002 |
I'm pasting Rob Davison's comment (below) from my NWP springs thread: "3" Of lift and you are just asking for drive line issues. I'd say it's as low as 10% of the people with 3" of lift do not have vib's, or 90% DO. Plus you will have the on-road wandering, 3" makes the truck handle like shit. (unless you get into all the corrective mods) rd" SO... the $10,000 question is what odds do I have of making my truck painful to drive if I lift it 3" w/out Castor-correction radius arms, bushings or welding? This is our family's daily driver for the next year. I can handle the stiffer ride and different road manners, but if it's shaking so bad I can't use the mirrors, then the lift is out. Todd Rooker (tryrook) did the NWP 3" with gas-shocks on his D1 and says it doesn't shake at all. I'm running BFG AT KO's, as is he. So is it "your results may vary" or am I hopelessly wishing for no shake with the 3"? | ||
| Eric N (Grnrvr) Senior Member Username: Grnrvr Post Number: 1266 Registered: 02-2002 |
Hell, I had drive line vibes with two inches of lift. Some people don't have problems and some do. You really will never know for sure unless you just do it. Could always get the springs, put them in and see what happens. If you get vibes and wander all over the road then take them out, put the old ones back in, and save up some money for corrective parts. | ||
| James (Jimmyg) Member Username: Jimmyg Post Number: 165 Registered: 10-2002 |
I second Eric, I had no vibes at 3 inches of lift and then got them 2 months later. Driveshafts had to be replaced and Fr. Radius arms were needed. With three inches of lift you are like a motorcycle rider, there are those who have had accidents and those that are going too. | ||
| Keith Kreutzer (Revor) Member Username: Revor Post Number: 152 Registered: 11-2002 |
3" Rovertym, D11 drive shaft.. bunch of weight up front...1" spring spacers... Detroit in the back TT in the front 4:11 gears ... RS9000's all around and 235/85 BFG AT KO (XYZABC) While it doesn't drive like our former Eddie Bauer Expedition It's quite pleasent and a lot of fun... | ||
| Peter J Blatt (Peteb) Member Username: Peteb Post Number: 103 Registered: 10-2002 |
Why not do a 1-2" lift, and then add a 2"body lift if you're not happy with height, | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Senior Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 139 Registered: 02-2003 |
shawn, you can drive it. it's just going to wander all over the road and probably vibrate like you are driving over the rumble strip on the side of the road. you soon realize after driving that it is probably not a good idea to lend the car to someone because they'll wreck it. if that's acceptable then go for it. if it's not , you been warned. rd | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 513 Registered: 09-2002 |
I wonder like crazy with a 2". I don't really have vibes though, now that I ballanced my tires. Oringinally I tghought it was because I no longer had my sway bars on but after reinstalling the front I still wander. But it is getting predictable now. A little left then a little right..kind of like the beat of a good song. I will probably correct the castor someday as I go higher or I may just let it be and get used to it. But I do not like others to drive my truck for fear that they won't know how to drive it. | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1107 Registered: 02-2002 |
I think that much of the problem with vibrations on lifted vehicle is not necessarily directly attributable solely to the lift, but is more likely due to lifitng a higher mileage truck, the provenance of which is a mystery. In my case, I had some vibes initially and found a BAD front driveshaft that would have made its condition known to me eventually. The same can be said for rear driveshafts where I found the balancing weights had been busted loose and were flapping about in the wind. The roto-flex brings in its own pile of problems. If one goes into such mods aware of what can be expected and deals with them in a logical manner (real baseline before making further mods) many of the trials and tribulations we deal with can be avoided or minimized. So, what do we do now? Before doing a lift, replace all of your universal joints and roto-flex. Carefully inspect your front and rear driveshafts for play in and utility of the sliding joint (my front one was seized) and finally, confirm acceptable balance on the rotating parts, tires, and driveshafts. Once these clearly wise steps are followed, one's likelihood of having vibrations is minimized and if you still have vibes, your search for the source will be musch shorter as you have already removed many of the usual suspects. Peace, Paul | ||
| R. B. Bailey (Rover50987) Senior Member Username: Rover50987 Post Number: 386 Registered: 07-2002 |
I used to daily drive an original condition '65 IIa - I think my 2" lift on my DI will be fine... Why would it wander any more than with OEM springs when the ones I am getting are quite a bit stiffer? My mom had one of those E.B. Special Edition Explorers. We tried to tell them not to get it. I remember the first time I saw it I said, "It's nice, but it's a Ford..." It was a '95. They sold it two and a half years later after replacing the main wiring harness 3 times, rebuilding the transmission 2 times, replacing the transmission once, and rebuilding the drivers side dash and door trim... 'nough said. I was scared to drive it because it handled like a boat; delayed steering, wandered, swayed... http://landrover.mrbaileyshistory.net | ||
| R. B. Bailey (Rover50987) Senior Member Username: Rover50987 Post Number: 388 Registered: 07-2002 |
Actually, I am a little worried about the vibes from my lift. I already have a KNOCK-KNOCK-KNOCK at low speeds from somewhere in my drivetrain. I assume that it is a u-joint, although I have checked them and cannot tell. It has been that way for nearly two years with no adverse effects - but... Other than going through a change to U-joint, what things can a person do with that rotoflex? Will the lift of 2" damage it? Not something I want to replace every 6 months. | ||
| Shawn McKenzie (Shawn) New Member Username: Shawn Post Number: 35 Registered: 10-2002 |
Peter, I considered the suspension/body lift combo, but I want to get the best articulation bang for my buck. I'm not totally sure how a body lift affects steering shaft angle, and shift levers, I'll have to look in the archives. I suspect that I'll likely go to a body lift in addition later, once we have a second vehicle. | ||
| Blue (Bluegill) Senior Member Username: Bluegill Post Number: 2037 Registered: 02-2002 |
1996 D1 with rotoflex: I installed OME Medium Duty rear springs and heavy duty front springs, along with OME shocks, lifted about 2". NO VIBES. Then I swapped the rear Mediums for rear Heavy Duty springs, lifted the rear an additional 0.25". VIBES VIBES VIBES! I replaced the rotoflex driveshaft with a standard ujointed shaft and it's better, but it still rides and handles like a non-stock truck. | ||
| Shawn McKenzie (Shawn) New Member Username: Shawn Post Number: 36 Registered: 10-2002 |
Keith, Brian and Paul: Thanks for your insights/experience. I am going to order the 3" springs from NorthWestParts.com this week and sort out problems as I encounter them. Damn, if this Rover thing wasn't so addictive, my life would be a lot easier and I could concentrate on IPSC!  (The USP .45 is good fun!) | ||
| R. B. Bailey (Rover50987) Senior Member Username: Rover50987 Post Number: 391 Registered: 07-2002 |
OK, so OME and NWP and everyone else say their springs and shocks will IMPROVE the ride. But all you guys are saying different, or at least sounds like that is what you are saying. Except for possible vibes, is the ride better? | ||
| Shawn McKenzie (Shawn) New Member Username: Shawn Post Number: 37 Registered: 10-2002 |
Who knows why the Disco's are so susceptible to driveline vibration? I have friends driving 4Runners and Jeeps with 4" and 5" lifts and they don't seem to have the issues. (They still can't lose me on the trails though  ) | ||
| marc olivares (Pugs) New Member Username: Pugs Post Number: 25 Registered: 12-2002 |
shawn My 99d1 has a 3"ome lift(235/85s) and vibed like mad until I replaced the front driveline with the GBR double cardon. We compared it with others I ride with and even a stock setup truck vibed more than mine. Some just shake from the factory, others get lucky. @ 3" sooner or later you'll be changing u-joints, just change the shaft from the start. As far as road wander, yes @ 3" it will tend to wander but it is only noticable at fast highway speeds, and lets face it these pigs shouldn't be driven fast anyway. And pass on the body lift unless you plan on stuffing huge tires under it. A 3" spring lift is the perfect over all balance for these trucks (imo). marc | ||
| Blue (Bluegill) Senior Member Username: Bluegill Post Number: 2039 Registered: 02-2002 |
RB, you have to define "better ride" - if better ride means less lean in the corners, less nose-dive on braking, better offroad, etc, then my ride has definitely improved. But if you mean better ride with cruise control set at 75 mph on the highway, or better ride when I slam the brakes on to avoid some asshole in a ford taurus backing out of his driveway, then my ride is worse than stock (NEW stock that is) | ||
| marc olivares (Pugs) New Member Username: Pugs Post Number: 27 Registered: 12-2002 |
if you define ride as what your ass feels in the seat, then no the 3" lift feels like shit. and any one who tells you different is bolwing smoke. if your worried about ride leave it stock. otherwise it's just a matter if your individual tolerance and everyone is different. marc | ||
| R. B. Bailey (Rover50987) Senior Member Username: Rover50987 Post Number: 392 Registered: 07-2002 |
Blue- So you're saying it wanders on the freeway? And why would it do that? And why would a brakeing maneuver be worse with stiffer taller springs - as long as it is a straight stop? Also, when you replaced your rotflex you said you got the four bolt flange from a 98 Disco - does that mean the newer models don't have the wonderful rotoflex marvel of technology? I assume you also got the drive shaft from the same truck?? I am just full of questions... you can email me personally if you want rover50987@yahoo.com I would appreciate it since I am putting a lift on and have limited funds to fix other possible problems... | ||
| Blue (Bluegill) Senior Member Username: Bluegill Post Number: 2041 Registered: 02-2002 |
not so much "wander" as just the combined effect of a lot of variables: lift = higher center of gravity; lift + removed airdam = more air under vehicle, especially at speed; bigger tires = worse ride knobby tread = worse ride removed anti-sway bars = surprisingly enough, more sway! all of the above changes the dynamics of the vehicle, especially noticeable when you have to push the brake pedal through the floor and yank the steering wheel in an evasive maneuver. Rotoflex was phased out of the D1's. I think some 97's had roto, some did not. Yes, I picked up the uj shaft and pinion flange from a wrecked '98. Also think about what Eric said - if you have issues after a lift (and limited funds), you can always put the stock parts back in while you sort out the issues. If I were you, I would get rid of the roto before you alter the suspension. The down side is the possibility that a bigger lift (3") may make a stock uj shaft vibe too. The solution is then aftermarket driveshafts made to your truck's specs (based on actual measurements you take on your truck after the lift). | ||
| R. B. Bailey (Rover50987) Senior Member Username: Rover50987 Post Number: 393 Registered: 07-2002 |
OK, all that makes sense. How many of you people have removed your Roto-not-so-flex with 2" or lower lift? | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1112 Registered: 02-2002 |
I am still running a roto-flex driveshaft with a 2" Rover Tym lift and 235/85/16 for a combined overall lift (measured from ground) of how much-~2". Now that I got a better driveshaft (thanx Matt) it drives much better. But, I do have a Range Rover driveshaft to swap in "Some Day". The current front driveshaft is of Rover origin, but I'm not sure what it came from, nor how many miles. It and two others will "Some Day" be used to build a double cardon CV shaft that will bolt directly to my transfer case output flange. I often pull a heavily laden trailer (either dragging Series trucks home, or machinery-last one was a 2000# surface grinder), I think I'll pass on removing the sway bars until I stop pulling a trailer. A comment was made about replacing universal joints, sooner or later. Gentlemen, let me assure you it is better to do this sooner, rather than later as the carnage that comes from failed u-joints can be expensive and in extreme cases, painful. They are cheap, fairly easy to swap and give me great peace of mind. Lastly, as in all things in life, BALANCE is important, and moreso here. Shawn, with a three inch lift, you may also need extended brakelines. If you think IPSC is fun, stay away from the trap/skeet ranges! Peace, Paul | ||
| Mike Carino (Mikec) Member Username: Mikec Post Number: 59 Registered: 03-2002 |
i have a 3 inch RTM lift( which w/o a bumper and winch netted 4 inches) and 33's. The only thing I noticed differnet from before is a very small vibe from the front shaft at around 10mph. So I only notice it on start and stop. I had to adjust my driving style and it does wander some, but that is w/o the corrected radius arms which come next. I will change out the shaft down the road to a more HD unit, but for now it is OK. It is all give and take. What are you willing to give up on the highway, so that you can gain off-road? That is how I look at it when I make a modification at least. Mike | ||
| R. B. Bailey (Rover50987) Senior Member Username: Rover50987 Post Number: 395 Registered: 07-2002 |
How do you correct the radius arms? Get new ones I suppose. | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1114 Registered: 02-2002 |
R. B.: The reason to modify the radius arms is to recover the original caster. This can be achieved a few different ways-most commonly by reworking original arms, or slotting the swivel ball mounting holes, or completely removing the stock suspension a la Safari Gard's three link. There are other less well-advised methods also available. | ||
| Jason Gustavson (Prescottj) Senior Member Username: Prescottj Post Number: 436 Registered: 12-2002 |
Doesn't $G three link= Lawn Chair  | ||
| Kris Arnott (Krisarnott) New Member Username: Krisarnott Post Number: 7 Registered: 02-2003 |
Installing a "Lawn Chair" now to correct my wandering problem associated with a ~3" lift. I will let you all know if it works. The adjustability of the three link system should allow for a good compromise between castor correction and pinion angle... I hope! Kris | ||
| Neil Flanagan (Electriceel) Member Username: Electriceel Post Number: 53 Registered: 02-2002 |
Isn't stability of the "Lawn Chair" as a daily driver an issue too? Get your castor corrected. The Rovertym mod is a great mod. I have 3.5" lift on the Disco with no wander or vibes(adjustable rear links). | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 265 Registered: 08-2002 |
Mike C do you have a rotoflex? | ||
| Shawn McKenzie (Shawn) New Member Username: Shawn Post Number: 40 Registered: 10-2002 |
Neil, do you have a totally stock front end?(other than springs and shocks obviously) The 3.5" lift w/out wander or vibes seems to go against many of the messages I've read here and in the archive. (See the quote in msg #1 of this thread) I thought I was taking a risk just going to NWP 3". Who did you get your adjustable links from? Geez, you guys are going to have me putting my daily driver on 35" MTRs w/ 5" of lift before the week is out! K Damn, I love this site! | ||
| Neil Flanagan (Electriceel) Member Username: Electriceel Post Number: 56 Registered: 02-2002 |
"Neil, do you have a totally stock front end?(other than springs and shocks obviously) " I have Rovertym radius arms and rear links. I purchased the radius arms long before the swivel ball mounting flange relocation mod John also offers. Even with a 3" lift and NO mods, wander shouldn't be too bad provided your steering components are in good shape and your swivel preload is within tolerance. I would say these are the main reason people experience wander after a lift. The lift just brings more attention to loose failing ball joints, swivel preload and wheel bearing play. | ||
| Mike Carino (Mikec) Member Username: Mikec Post Number: 60 Registered: 03-2002 |
Hey Brian, yes I do have rotoflex. But that will be changed when I install new axels,lockers and new gearing. Mike | ||
| R. B. Bailey (Rover50987) Senior Member Username: Rover50987 Post Number: 403 Registered: 07-2002 |
Alright, someone explain the caster and swivel ball adjustments that apparently need to be made. Seriously, I don't have the money to do this if it will all hit the fan when I put my 2" in! Technically, I'm unemployed! | ||
| Andy Thoma (Andythoma) Member Username: Andythoma Post Number: 77 Registered: 01-2003 |
I think the best method is lift it an see what happens. My 95 d1 with ome md springs gives me a lift of 20" front and rear measured from the wheel center to bottom of the fender lips. My luck was that before I got my truck it was a lease mall crawler. My ball joints, bushings, etc. where all in good shape. Before I lifted I did one rear wheel bearing. After the lift I had vibes going down steep long canyon hills. Turned out my rotoflex was in need of replacing. So far (knock on wood) I haven't had any more problems. I went to Great Basin Rovers when I got my lift, Bills advice was with a 2" lift the best thing to do is make sure all the suspension and steering components are in good shape first, then lift the truck, if you get vibes deal with it later. I think if you go bigger than the 2" lift you'll run into more issues to deal with. | ||
| Jason Gustavson (Prescottj) Senior Member Username: Prescottj Post Number: 459 Registered: 12-2002 |
RB, Search 2001 Archives for cheap bastard lift. Maybe Ron still backs it up. | ||
| Zach Jaggers (Mountenn) New Member Username: Mountenn Post Number: 18 Registered: 03-2003 |
I've got a '95 Disco with RTE 3" lift. This is my daily driver. Rovertym's castor correcting radius arms have helped a lot. I get vibes at about 70mph, but if you're looking for speed, you're on the wrong site. It's all personal preference...if you are worried that your ride will be that much different, only go with the 2", but from personal experience, I have had no problems with 3", and it's been lifted since September. |
