| Author | Message | ||
     Brad Russell (Bradnc) Member Username: Bradnc Post Number: 163 Registered: 03-2002 |
I have a D1 w/ OME HD and Radial Rover 235/85s with removed rear swaybar. I was wondering why I would or if I do need either spring retainers or drop cones. Is there anywhere I can look for the purpose of these or the necessary wheel travel to need them? I read EEs description but didn't get a great understanding of the theory, just about how their's won't break! So can someone describe these two things to me in fairly good detail or point me somewhere that will? I've tried to find something but failed. | ||
| Greg Davis (Gregdavis) Senior Member Username: Gregdavis Post Number: 728 Registered: 08-2002 |
Brad, if your rear shocks are long enough, your rear springs may actually fall away (unseat) from the frame. The drop cones guide the springs back into position when this happens. The retainers attach the springs to the frame and axle so that they will not fall out of position. Some like the cones because they allow the rear axle to drop farther away from the frame. However, if the axle is just sitting there with no weight on it, you're not really gaining much from it. Others (like myself) like the stability of the retainers. The weight of the rear axle will pull down on the spring, and conversely the spring will pull up on the axle. To some this adds a bit of stability because you don't have an axle that suddenly just drops away. It all boils down to personal preference. | ||
| Lawrence Tilly (L_tilly) Member Username: L_tilly Post Number: 104 Registered: 02-2002 |
Anyone have a link to the Crispy Creme Challange last year? I tried using the Search in the archives but came up blank. Those messages had some good arguments for both sides and actually some real comparisons... Lawrence [email protected] 96 Disco "Beowulf" NH, USA | ||
| Brad Russell (Bradnc) Member Username: Bradnc Post Number: 168 Registered: 03-2002 |
Greg, They were talking about you awhile back about how you make all your own stuff for your disco and how you backed up onto your wife's Volvo one morning or something like that. Wanna give us the full story??? lol | ||
| Blake Luse (Muddyrover) Senior Member Username: Muddyrover Post Number: 774 Registered: 02-2002 |
i don't think you need either with a ome hd setup. Even with sway bars removed. I have the same setup with 255/85's and haven't unseated any shocks. Your springs probably aren't long enough to unseat the spring. | ||
| Brad Russell (Bradnc) Member Username: Bradnc Post Number: 174 Registered: 03-2002 |
thanks. Good deal. I'll hold off for now | ||
| Greg Davis (Gregdavis) Senior Member Username: Gregdavis Post Number: 764 Registered: 08-2002 |
Actually, It's a Mitsu Galant. She parked behind me in a friend's driveway. When I was leaving, it was pouring rain and I had my daughter with me. Got her loaded up, jumped in up front, looked in my mirrors, and reversed. Crunch! My fuel skid went right up on her hood, and opened it up like a can. Didn't hit the grill or anything, just the hood. Long story short, that little Ooops cost me almost $600!!! Her response? "It's OK. It's leased anyway" What a gal!  | ||
| Larry Grubbs (Larryg) Member Username: Larryg Post Number: 165 Registered: 03-2002 |
"However, if the axle is just sitting there with no weight on it, you're not really gaining much from it." - Greg Davis I call BS. This is obviously stated from someone who doesn't have drop cones. Wheel travel helps keep the truck level so as not to roll. If you have the right spring/shock combo with cones then the truck is more stable than most trucks without cones. My truck rarely get off-camber when crawling through the rocks. It also feels very stable on the off-camber. Larry | ||
| Greg Davis (Gregdavis) Senior Member Username: Gregdavis Post Number: 765 Registered: 08-2002 |
Larry, if your axle is sitting on the ground because of drop cones, how the hell is that adding to your stability? There's no weight on it, and it's not supporting your vehicle. I've had the cones, and switched to the retainers. I prefer the axle to pull down on the vehicle rather than sitting on the ground with no weight on it. Ever see a vehicle leaning on an off-camber obstacle and then someone jumps on that side to add weight? Same principal with the retainers. Call BS if you want, but I know what's worked better for me. | ||
| Dave_lucas (Dave_lucas) Senior Member Username: Dave_lucas Post Number: 350 Registered: 02-2002 |
Larry, Did you ever get a pic of your RR resting on the front rovertym bumper when we were at behind the rocks? | ||
| Larry Grubbs (Larryg) Member Username: Larryg Post Number: 167 Registered: 03-2002 |
I did get that pic. Unfortunately it only showed the rear with the tire about 3 feet in the air. I would have thought somebody would have walked around and took pics of the truck when I was 55+ degrees off-camber. Larry | ||
| Dave_lucas (Dave_lucas) Senior Member Username: Dave_lucas Post Number: 351 Registered: 02-2002 |
Bummer, That would have been a great one to have Mind sending me the one they did take? | ||
| Larry Grubbs (Larryg) Member Username: Larryg Post Number: 168 Registered: 03-2002 |
I'll try and send it tonight from home. Larry | ||
| Brad Russell (Bradnc) Member Username: Bradnc Post Number: 178 Registered: 03-2002 |
Hey, Not being knowledgable but using insight, I'd have to guess that Drop cones wouldn't add more stability, but don't quote me on that cuz i know nothing of the subject. On another note, I always here "Off-Camber" and I'm not sure what it means. I know in racing it's when you go around a turn that is banked to the outside oppossed to the inside (like NASCAR). How does this apply to four-wheeling and is the concept the same? Brad | ||
| Will Bobbitt (Rkores) Member Username: Rkores Post Number: 236 Registered: 09-2002 |
Brad, When you are off-camber, it means that your are traversing across a hill, not up or down it. And when Larry said he was at a 55 degrees off camber that means his Range Rover was perpendicular to the 55 degree hill. Will | ||
| Larry Grubbs (Larryg) Member Username: Larryg Post Number: 169 Registered: 03-2002 |
Brad, In short, the more off-camber you are, the closer your truck is to laying on it's side! Read Body Damage!!! Good Times Larry | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 160 Registered: 11-2002 |
Stop smoking crack Larry.... Just say no.. Kyle "Blow me" | ||
| Blue (Bluegill) Senior Member Username: Bluegill Post Number: 2141 Registered: 02-2002 |
hey Matusov, where's that freaky pic with the coned disco that looks like the body & axle are about to file separation papers? Remember that one you linked to in Kyle's House of Pain? | ||
| Larry Grubbs (Larryg) Member Username: Larryg Post Number: 170 Registered: 03-2002 |
Brad, This is Off-Camber...  | ||
| Larry Grubbs (Larryg) Member Username: Larryg Post Number: 171 Registered: 03-2002 |
Also, bad spotting. Bad Spotter! Bad Spotter! Larry | ||
| Larry Grubbs (Larryg) Member Username: Larryg Post Number: 172 Registered: 03-2002 |
And another showing stability of truck with cones.  A truck without droop here would be teetering back and forth. Because I had lots of wheel travel (Due to cones) my truck was very stable! Larry | ||
| Eric N (Grnrvr) Senior Member Username: Grnrvr Post Number: 1282 Registered: 02-2002 |
Wouldn't a retained rear with nice long stretchy springs help force the front to flex making your truck sit level in stead of leaning? Your limited by your shock anyways so once you run out of shock travel you ran out of drop retained or coned makes no difference in that. Retained the spring will have to stretch forcing the front to stretch too making your ride more level wouldn't it? At least that is my understanding and I could be wrong (wouldn't be a first). | ||
| James (Jimmyg) Member Username: Jimmyg Post Number: 197 Registered: 10-2002 |
Eric, I think it works both ways, depending on the situation and angles. I think that when running cones, you can use a longer travel shock? Then again, the cones will also let the body tilt (sometimes in the wrong way) and retained springs will pull the body closer to the axle keeping the body level. I've got a good picture in my head, but I don't think that I'm describing it correctly. You have retainers, right? What is an example of long stretchy springs? | ||
| Greg Davis (Gregdavis) Senior Member Username: Gregdavis Post Number: 766 Registered: 08-2002 |
Larry, I'd be tempted to guess that if you had retainers in the above photo, your truck would be sitting a little more level. I say that because if you were retained, the weight of the left rear would be pulling down on that corner. With the cones, that same left rear is allowed to roll over to the right because the weight of the axle has been allowed to fall free. Just my observation. None the less, we all have to run what we feel works the best for us. Just don't confuse "wheels on the groud" with "stability". Just because you have a tire that's on the ground doesn't mean it's adding to your stability. Great photos by the way. | ||
| Larry Grubbs (Larryg) Member Username: Larryg Post Number: 174 Registered: 03-2002 |
Thanks Greg. Not trying to start a war or anything. Had I had less travel there the right front wheel and left rear wheels would have been teetering. I only know this because other vehicles who ran this obstacle with less travel did this. To me that teetering feeling (With a bit of a drop on the right) feels a little less nerving than the stability I had. Granted there are situation where the droop can make you feel less stable, but for the trails I run I personally feel wheel travel outweighs retained springs. BTW, for those of wondering that shot was taken in Prichette Canyon in Moab. Larry | ||
| Eric N (Grnrvr) Senior Member Username: Grnrvr Post Number: 1284 Registered: 02-2002 |
James, you can run longer shocks without the use of cones you just might not use all the travel if your spring doesn't stretch out that much. Long and flexy would make it real crappy for street driving since you would most likely have to use a lower rated weight spring in a longer free length. You have more rear flex then me but, not due to the fact that you are running cones. Your shocks are longer in the rear then mine. I never got around to getting the longer shocks for the rear so I'm still running the ones that I had with my 2 inch lift. I'm retained but, my travel is still limmited by the shock, the spring will still stretch more. | ||
| Dave_lucas (Dave_lucas) Senior Member Username: Dave_lucas Post Number: 353 Registered: 02-2002 |
"that shot was taken in Prichette Canyon in Moab" The first pic was @ behind the rock when I went with you guys right? I thought for sure that you were going over That was the only time I saw Bill a little worried, well other than the time you talked my wife into spotting me! | ||
| Larry Grubbs (Larryg) Member Username: Larryg Post Number: 175 Registered: 03-2002 |
Yes your correct. The first pic is Behind the Rocks, the second is Prichette Canyon. Larry | ||
| Paul Kleinkramer (El_rover) New Member Username: El_rover Post Number: 7 Registered: 03-2003 |
You guys are forgetting that when the unsprung half of your Rover drops out from under the rig, and you happen to give it a little gas... say while climbing a hill, the trailing arms can and will fold up and the unsprung half will happily drive out from under your rig. They generally keep on going until the rear drive line breaks off and stops the show. Once that shit drops out its nice but you should be very, very careful. | ||
| EricV (Bender2033) Member Username: Bender2033 Post Number: 163 Registered: 08-2002 |
POR preaches retainers. | ||
| Paul Kleinkramer (Slipinkramer) New Member Username: Slipinkramer Post Number: 1 Registered: 03-2003 |
Pirates? THE authority? LOL... oh please! Now that its all settled, shall we talk about how much we hate latte and going to the mall? | ||
| Eric N (Grnrvr) Senior Member Username: Grnrvr Post Number: 1287 Registered: 02-2002 |
I for one can't stand lattes or the mall. I don't like coffee and I hate large crowds of people. There is some good reading on POR and some really good ideas. | ||
| Larry Grubbs (Larryg) Member Username: Larryg Post Number: 176 Registered: 03-2002 |
EricV, BS. I live on POR and never get picked on. Paul, do you really think I am running stock trailing arms? Please! That is one of the first upgrades along with Diff Covers! Larry | ||
| James (Jimmyg) Member Username: Jimmyg Post Number: 199 Registered: 10-2002 |
Eric, We are the same, I'm still running my 2inch lift shocks, with my three inch lift...Ranchos...I hate them. They will be gone in 10 days. I think I may like retainers but since our trucks are almost identical I would like to put them to a mild test just to see how they respond to different angles. I agree with the Church gate. See you soon my friend | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 163 Registered: 11-2002 |
Larry , its pretty basic to know that you were not that close yet in those pics reguardless of what trails you were on.. Once you reach that threashold of rolling just one once can make the difference. A coned truck is going over before a retained one will... Kyle "Blow me" | ||
| Larry Grubbs (Larryg) Member Username: Larryg Post Number: 178 Registered: 03-2002 |
Kyle, I think your incorrect. Maybe in a few instances, but not all. The cones in that picture had nothing to do with my truck staying upright or going over. The only thing that was keeping me upright was the right corner of the front bumper. Larry | ||
| Larry Grubbs (Larryg) Member Username: Larryg Post Number: 179 Registered: 03-2002 |
BTW, I know for a fact that my truck can go to around 45 degrees with no support and still not roll. Not too many trucks, other than stock can do that! I also bet that less than 1% of the people on this board have ever been there without going over! Larry | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 567 Registered: 09-2002 |
I am running cones. Seems to me that the droop on one side due to cones helps some with uptravel on the other side. (angle of the tire?) Someone with more authority on the .....ics type of theories will probably be able to explain in more detail if this is a fact or not. As far as stability, I suppose that the weight of the axle on the droping side of the vehicle would hold the truck down better but in reality, I should say in most cases, that you will run the limit of your shock long before you roll over and then you have your weight back. | ||
| Ho Chung (Thediscoho) Moderator Username: Thediscoho Post Number: 80 Registered: 02-2002 |
brian, that's called the fake uptravel. ---------- Ho Chung | ||
| Paul Kleinkramer (Slipinkramer) New Member Username: Slipinkramer Post Number: 3 Registered: 03-2003 |
Grnrvr, Yeah I don't depute that they have some good ideas there but just because they call themselves "Pirates" and preach hardcore shit doesn't make them quotable. You dropped their name like it was supposed to settle the matter and I called you on it. That's all. Its their attitude that makes me laugh. EXTREME this and EXTREME that. I suspect that, like so many things in the world, its a few really excellent, hardcore, bad-ass, knowledgeable, honest, reliable, active and humble wheelers and 50 or so wannabee weenies trying to ride their coat tails. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 164 Registered: 11-2002 |
I dont think you are getting it larry. The weight of that retained rear can and will hold your ass down from going over where in that same situation that dropping ice cream coned rear wont. Its pretty simple really. As far as you being over to blah blah blah. Man , get some rims that are way offset and nail em on with some fatty tires... BAM Its not a great feat... Keep in mind that alot of these guys dont run fatty marsh mallow tires on big offsets and they will suffer differently from those cool ass cones. Cones also promote that whip action , meaning , it will go over further , faster then a retained truck.. Kyle "Blow me" | ||
| Paul Kleinkramer (Slipinkramer) New Member Username: Slipinkramer Post Number: 4 Registered: 03-2003 |
Larryg, How should I know what kind of trailing arm you have? hehehe. I don't even know if you have a Land Rover. Over the years there have been so many fakers and 15 minute experts come through all the lists.... I am a permanent sceptic now. It takes about 2 years doing this to realize you don't really know shit about it. I do know for sure that trailing arms can fold up when a suspension drops and torque is applied. Don't misunderstand me. I am not bashing cones. I have cones. Its just that they are good and bad. I am just discussing the badness of them. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 165 Registered: 11-2002 |
It aint just the arms , its the mounts that are a weak link as well.... Kyle "Blow me" | ||
| EricV (Bender2033) Member Username: Bender2033 Post Number: 164 Registered: 08-2002 |
Larry, WTF are you talking about: "EricV, BS. I live on POR and never get picked on." I never said anything about being picked on. I simply said that "POR preaches retainers." . Maybe preaches was too strong. I should've said, "It appears that the prevailing opinion on POR is leaning towards retainers rather than cones." And Paul, sure take POR with a grain of salt, but IMHO there are some very talented fabricators there (as well as here). I read both sites. | ||
| Larry Grubbs (Larryg) Member Username: Larryg Post Number: 180 Registered: 03-2002 |
Kyle, I do agree that very few people run Fatty tires with big offset on discoweb, however I haven't always ran this. I used to be a stock rims/245/75/16 guy myself. I will also admit that there has been times when the cones and extra travel got my heart going when off-camber. But you get used to it. I have never really felt like I was going over due to the cones. Usually the spot I am in and the trippy ass angles people like to put me in. I suppose we can agree to disagree! Basically I am just saying that people shouldn't rule out cones because they "heard this" or "heard that". They really should see equally equipped vehicles, one running cones, and one running without. Without debating the off-cambe issues I can tell you for a fact that with cones and no locker you will handle Moguls and similiar obstacles much better than retained! Even though there isn't that much weight on the dropped wheel doesn't mean it doesn't work. Sometimes it hits just enough to propel you the inches needed to enable better traction, whereas a truck retained would simply teeter on two wheels. Now with that said I do know people who don't run cones and don't want to. That is fine with me, every truck configuration is good at a particular obstacle. To each is own! BTW, I wasn't bragging about the trail, just letting people know. Typically when I see pics I like to know what trail they are from. I've moved beyond bragging about doing such and such trail. Larry | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 568 Registered: 09-2002 |
I can see th "whip" action that Kyle is tlaking about but I can't see the situation where it would occur. | ||
| Paul Kleinkramer (Slipinkramer) New Member Username: Slipinkramer Post Number: 5 Registered: 03-2003 |
Larry, You hit the nail on the head with the locker comments. Once your rear is locked, cones (and most other things) are a moot point. | ||
| Ron L (Ronl) New Member Username: Ronl Post Number: 13 Registered: 11-2002 |
Take a good look. http://www.expeditionexchange.com/miller/ Here is an example of what happens when you spit a drive shaft bend your trailing arms and have coned springs. It amounts to about 6 hours of recovery just to move 30 feet. All because there was nothing to hold the axel in place. | ||
| \Mike... (Mpeters) Member Username: Mpeters Post Number: 108 Registered: 02-2002 |
OMG - there's a lot more to that EE reference than just an example of a complicated recovery.. lol - there was some 'custom' fab work in effect there, to be sure.. So Brad, has all this answered ur question? Looks like you were asking -if- you needed either. You only need one or the other if your springs are unseating due to your shocks not being matched. As far as the debate that has happened, looks the verdict is, once again, "it depends". And yeah, you will seldom hear anyone with retainers give a plug for drop cones or probably vice-versa.. What you will hear is a lot of opinions from people that have a particular setup. Some of these opinions are based on theory and not actual seat-of-the-pants experience, while others have chosen their setup because of actual trail experiences they have had. Try to sort thru that and weigh the pros and cons with your wheeling needs. Suspension performance is really optimal when it is balanced. It's a lot tougher to get good flex and travel up front, and just having a free-swinging rear axle is of marginal benefit - UNLESS you are open diff, in which case you will get more contact with the ground than if it is retained. More contact = more traction (and sure, everyone is correct in that a completely dropped axle hanging with no vehicle weight on it is not going to provide noticeable addl traction at that point, but it probably would have provided traction for a longer period than one retained as you moved the vehicle to that point, which could yield more momentum under power, which could potentially let you clear the obstacle). Off-camber driving has issues with more than just drop-cones. Vehicle load, and overall CG are the key players here - and the weight of a wheel in a retained axle is not going to be enough to totally counteract some stupid-angle-maneuver - just drive appropriately for how you setup your truck. Hell, even 12 degrees can sometimes feel sketchy depending on how you have your vehicle loaded. And don't necessarily base your opinions on the majority. I think according to some majorities, I've done everything wrong to date.. but I still wheel it. And it does ok... I see both retained and unretained trucks on trails, and their success seems to depend more on the driver than the rear spring components. And you will see the trucks approach the same obstacle differently because of the suspension characteristics - but it doesnt necessarily mean one will always get through while the other will not... Again, it depends. =) \mike | ||
| Ron L (Ronl) New Member Username: Ronl Post Number: 14 Registered: 11-2002 |
"there was some 'custom' fab work in effect there" yep, truly "custom" ;-) The owner swears by those trailing arms.... just dont get me started on the owner. | ||
| Larry Grubbs (Larryg) Member Username: Larryg Post Number: 181 Registered: 03-2002 |
\Mike, Well put. It's kind of like at the end of "South Park" when Kyle tells the world what he has learned from this experience. Well done Kyle Larry | ||
| Eric N (Grnrvr) Senior Member Username: Grnrvr Post Number: 1288 Registered: 02-2002 |
Hey Paul K, you directed your post to the wrong Eric. I'm Eric N. , Eric V. started the POR part, I just said that they had some good info and good ideas. Which they do. | ||
| James (Jimmyg) Member Username: Jimmyg Post Number: 206 Registered: 10-2002 |
Here is a pic going through the crack. I had open diffs at the diff and think that if I had retainers, the drivers side rear tire would be in the air and spinning, leaving me stuck in the crack. I had stock size tires and you can see that the spring has slid down but won't pop out.  | ||
| James (Jimmyg) Member Username: Jimmyg Post Number: 207 Registered: 10-2002 |
One more.  | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 587 Registered: 09-2002 |
James, What shocks are those? | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 302 Registered: 08-2002 |
Ron L, Are you saying that retained springs would have prevented that damage? | ||
| James (Jimmyg) Member Username: Jimmyg Post Number: 208 Registered: 10-2002 |
Rancho 9000 | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 591 Registered: 09-2002 |
relocated rear mounts? | ||
| James (Jimmyg) Member Username: Jimmyg Post Number: 209 Registered: 10-2002 |
RTE upper mounts and rear links. | ||
| Blake Luse (Muddyrover) Senior Member Username: Muddyrover Post Number: 785 Registered: 02-2002 |
I have ome hd springs, could i put some longer shocks (than the n115 and n45) and cones? I know i could but is anyone running longer shocks and cones on ome hd. I ussually only see it on rovertym. If so what would you recommend to maximize flex of OME 751/762. | ||
| James (Jimmyg) Member Username: Jimmyg Post Number: 210 Registered: 10-2002 |
You can buy my 2 inch Rovertym springs and the matching Ranchos seen in the pic above They will be for sale in a week or so. Less than a year old and I sell for cheap. Or, John at Rovertym can set you up with what you want. | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 598 Registered: 09-2002 |
What are the rear links? Same as trailing arms? | ||
| James (Jimmyg) Member Username: Jimmyg Post Number: 213 Registered: 10-2002 |
Yes. RTE makes a great set. | ||
| John Henley (Johnhenley) New Member Username: Johnhenley Post Number: 33 Registered: 12-2002 |
Geez. You guys are a riot! You are forgetting that if you just put on cones, without changing your spring rates, insuring that your front has adequate travel as well, (read matched) proper dampening rates (compression AND rebound) and proper weight distribution in and on the vehicle, you are going to have bad effects. Not to mention that there are issues with sidewall flexation and track. There are actually formulas for proper spring rates with specific travel involving weight distribution and COG. Not to mention that you need to figure anti-squat and such, as well as rear steer deflection. In short, a PROPERLY configured truck on non-retained springs (toyotas play this game in the fj/bj80/70/75 world) ONLY gets tippy once the roll axis is exceeded.  | ||
| John Henley (Johnhenley) New Member Username: Johnhenley Post Number: 34 Registered: 12-2002 |
crossing the other way from gold bar. j  | ||
| Ho Chung (Thediscoho) Moderator Username: Thediscoho Post Number: 101 Registered: 02-2002 |
let's get real here. none of that matters for most of us. we never leave the pavement. and when we do it's just some lame ass dirt road or somefest. ---------- Ho Chung |
