| Author | Message | ||
     paul londrigan (Neversummer) Member Username: Neversummer Post Number: 83 Registered: 11-2002 |
First off clearly I am in oposition to the war in Iraq. I feel it is an unjust war waged by an unjust leader, who stole the election in the first place. The evidance is there, you just have to look for it, its bean published. Secondly people must distinguish between lunatic protestors who don't know there heads from there assess and just want to run around screaming blood for oil. I may be opposed to the war but I certainly am not running around screaming blood for oil. I think it stems deeper then that. I believe Bush, although I am clearly not a fan, is doing what he feels is the right thing for the counrty at this time. Undoubtly there is some small part of the war that tickles his oil fancy. As far as the troops go, I offer my full support to them and I sincerely hope that there are as few possible casualties as can be. The united states armed forces are proud and brave young men and women and should not be critized, sneered at our treated in any other unjust way. What they do is far above and beyond the call of duty for a counrty and my heart goes out to them wishing them a speedy and safe return. All that being said I feel war is never the answer, violence can never be fixed with violence. Violence will just beget more violence, probably against the US citizens on civialians in the form of terrorism. It would be easy to cop out and now call me a coward, I am not, it is just the plan and simple truth, and the truth sucks. And one more thing if I see on more report on the news saying that the Iraqis are in bed with AL Qadea I am going to scream, there has been no intel to date showing that there are any ties between the gov. of iraq and terror groups. To call this war an extention of the war on terror is a falicy. War is wrong, violence is not the answer. I do love the US it has afforded me with opportunities I would not have had other wise. I just think it took a wrong turn somewhere. | ||
| Kennith P. Whichard III (Kennith) Member Username: Kennith Post Number: 244 Registered: 05-2002 |
And Kennith said... Let there be controversy! "I feel it is an unjust war waged by an unjust leader, who stole the election in the first place. The evidance is there, you just have to look for it, its bean published." "I believe Bush, although I am clearly not a fan, is doing what he feels is the right thing for the counrty at this time." If our president is a crooked leader, why do you believe he is doing what he believes is best for the country? "there has been no intel to date showing that there are any ties between the gov. of iraq and terror groups." Check yourself before you wreck yourself: There has been no intel that President Bush saw fit to show YOU. Cheers, Kennith -Yo Carter, where are ya?- | ||
| Jason Gustavson (Prescottj) Senior Member Username: Prescottj Post Number: 510 Registered: 12-2002 |
"no intel to date showing that there are any ties between the gov. of iraq and terror groups" So I suppose they don't spend billons and billons of dollars on Top Secret Intel Equipment and keeping a lot of information Top Secret. CNN can't tell you everything. | ||
| Kennith P. Whichard III (Kennith) Member Username: Kennith Post Number: 245 Registered: 05-2002 |
How does one "bean publish" something? | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 545 Registered: 09-2002 |
Violence against violence never solves anything? Here's and example. Someone punches me in the head and I do nothing, they are likely to do it again. Someone punches me in the head, I beat the crap out of them..they probably won't do it again and neither will anyone else that saw the incident. | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 118 Registered: 10-2002 |
Paul- Alot of good people died very violent deaths so you can express your opinion (have you heard of spell check?). BTW, you'd rather be "wishing" to express your opinion in Japanese or German? My opinion was expressed very eloquently earlier this evening by British PM Tony Blair-clearly, concisely and in a manner even you can understand. My 2 cents- | ||
| Ron Brown (Ron) Member Username: Ron Post Number: 164 Registered: 04-2001 |
Life, liberty, and $1/gallon gas  Ron | ||
| Chad Meyer (Ccdm3) Member Username: Ccdm3 Post Number: 79 Registered: 07-2002 |
Paul, I support your right to have the opinion that you have. Remember though you are given the right to express that opinion by the very government that you are chosing not to support. There are thousands of people currently fighting to make sure such freedoms are retained in this country. I agree with you that war is "wrong," but I am not so nieve to think that our government would share all of the information it has regarding Iraq's links to terrorist groups with the public. This is not information we need to conduct our daily lives. If it was, we would be in a position to have such information at our disposal. I am very dissapointed that people like to use the word oil when discussing this war. Iraq's oil production makes up less than ten percent of the world's supply. The US is currently not using oil from the Middle East. The "blood for oil" cry is, in my eyes, an empty complaint used by those who do not like the president to try and justify thier stances. If you do not agree with him...fine, but use a logic that can be supported. You also claim that Bush "stole" the election. Again, an empty complaint. Yes, the election was close. Yes, it did end under strange circumstances. But, I can just as easily call Gore a cry-baby who tried to buy the vote. The only difference is that Bush had more influence. I must also point out that our previous president was given several opportunities to act against terrorism, but chose not to. Bin-Laden was commiting acts similar to the ones of 9/11 throughout the Clinton/Gore administration and was charged with crimes of terrorism. No action was taken by that administration. It could be argued that Bush is cleaning up the mess that Clinton/Gore chose to ignore. That said, I support our president and the people who are risking thier lives to preserve the freedom for me to have such an opinion, and post it for all to read. Chad | ||
| todd slater (Toddslater) Senior Member Username: Toddslater Post Number: 257 Registered: 08-2002 |
Paul, Your choice of subject heading really says it all...you really need to get a clue. | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 119 Registered: 10-2002 |
Paul- Read Tony Blair's address if you don't believe Bush- http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page3322.asp | ||
| BW (Bwallace35) New Member Username: Bwallace35 Post Number: 39 Registered: 07-2002 |
Paul, Visit these links: http://www.dictionary.com http://www.ihavenocluewhatimtalkingabout.com You may have your opinions about the crisis at hand, but to make the assumption that we "ar mis guided" is not the best way to make a point. Go to barnes and nobles and do a search for: "How to make a point and not piss people off". That advice will cost you nothing. | ||
| paul londrigan (Neversummer) Member Username: Neversummer Post Number: 84 Registered: 11-2002 |
Todd I don't need a clue, I have one, perhaps what you ment to say was you would like me to change my opinion? Is that it, the problem is nobody here is right and nobody here is wrong, it is all opinion. | ||
| Paul Clawson (Pnut) Member Username: Pnut Post Number: 59 Registered: 02-2003 |
Paul. if you had/have a family and someone threatened their lives would you just stand there and remain peaceful? I would hope the hell not! you would either hurt or kill who ever was threatening them. It would be less violent to have one attacker dead than your entire family! I'm sorry but allowing terrorists and those that pose threat to run free as clinton/gore did results in much more violence that taking care of business as soon as you know there is a threat. | ||
| KJ (Karen) Senior Member Username: Karen Post Number: 117 Registered: 02-2002 |
Paul Clawson, I think the same could be said of Old number 41 when he allowed the thug to remain at large back in '91.....and don't anyone give me that, "It wasn't our mission" argument. Missions get modified all the time. There's plenty of blame to go around. Karen | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 120 Registered: 10-2002 |
Karen- I quite agree-it was a mistake not to take him out in '91. There now would be 12 years of freedom instead of misery for the Iraqi people. | ||
| Kennith P. Whichard III (Kennith) Member Username: Kennith Post Number: 247 Registered: 05-2002 |
Paul, Well, in this particular instance, you Sir, are wrong. Your grasp of the English language, and it's intricacies, is shamefully weak. Note the mistakes in the following excerpts: "Todd I don't need a clue, I have one, perhaps what you ment to say was you would like me to change my opinion?" First, it would be appropriate in this case to include the word "because" in between the comma following clue, and the letter/word "I". Meant is spelled thusly, and not as you have demonstrated. The second point relating to the first sentance in your posting is that it should terminate in a period or exclamation point, not a question mark. You are making a statement in this example, not asking a question, Paul. "Is that it, the problem is nobody here is right and nobody here is wrong, it is all opinion." First in this string of jumbled letters is exchanging the first comma for a question mark. Secondly, you must capitalize the next letter (being the letter "t"), and insert a comma directly before the next occurance of the word "and". Courtesy: Kennith Paul Whichard III DiscoWeb Spell Checker "Cheers" | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 121 Registered: 10-2002 |
Kennith- "Exerpts" is actually spelled "Excerpts" | ||
| Lawrence Tilly (L_tilly) Member Username: L_tilly Post Number: 111 Registered: 02-2002 |
I have never been able to get my hands around the "unjustified war" comment. Want a fact that is completely beyond argument, try this one on: The "scud" missle is a medium range missle. These are completely outlawed in Iraq according to the resolution EVERY SINGLE MEMBER signed on for (yes, it covered a hell of a lot more than WoMD). The Saddam regime claimed repeatedly not to have any such missles. When similar missiles were found the regime claimed to be destroying them all. Less than 12 hours after we dropped a wake up call on Bagdad that same regime was firing the illegal missle they did not have. To think he does not have chemical and bioligcal weapons and a will to use them is naive. Although we can throw a lot of ideas, speculations and what-ifs out there, the simple fact is that the resolution that was agreed on was NOT that inspections would be done, but that the sadistic maniac will be completely disarmed of all illegal weapons. The inspectors were simply supposed to validate that it was done. It is not and HAS NEVER BEEN the job of weapons inspectors to hold the hands of a nation and tell them "would you please destroy this". Saddam was given 12 years to disarm. He was then given many more months to do so under the unanimous decision of the entire UN Security Counsel. He failed to do so. He is now going to be removed. If you want some more reasons this maniac should be gone then put down the left-biased magazines and shut off the "cry for everything" television and find some solid, unbiased sources that are not afraid of reporting the facts. For the last two years NPR has been carring some fantastic interviews with people in and close to the regime. Listen to the reports of how Saddam took his two sons into a room when they were teenagers and had them personally execute political prisoners. Remember the genocide he inflicted on his own people. Hear the discriptions of how he and his sons rape, torture and beat people simply because they can. We turned a blind eye to Hitler and the cost of that ignorance is almost beyond comprehension. We had reports of the thread of Bin Laden for over a year before 9/11 but it was not "right" for America to act first. We cannot continue to sit idle as a nation because our people do not have the interrest or concern to see the threat that does exist and eliminate it before we or other innocents are again victimized. You may not care for our current President, and that's your right. I personally was asamed to have an adulterous, lying snake sitting in the White House for the two terms before him, but he did help in some areas of the economy and certain legislation I agree with. The fact is that whatever problems Bush may have in other areas of leading this country, he is willing to risk any chance of himself (or any other Republican) being elected next term by doing what is RIGHT rather than what is popular. "Today we did what we had to do. They counted on America to be passive...They counted wrong." Lawrence lnctilly@metrocast.net 96 Disco "Beowulf" NH, USA | ||
| Kennith P. Whichard III (Kennith) Member Username: Kennith Post Number: 248 Registered: 05-2002 |
Greg, What are you talking about Cheers, Kennith | ||
| Greg Hirst (Gregh) Member Username: Gregh Post Number: 122 Registered: 10-2002 |
Yeah, that edit feature comes in handy, doesn't it? | ||
| Kennith P. Whichard III (Kennith) Member Username: Kennith Post Number: 249 Registered: 05-2002 |
Yes it dos, er, does. | ||
| Mike McUne (Mikem) New Member Username: Mikem Post Number: 13 Registered: 02-2003 |
I don't know if the Iraqi government is "in bed with AL Qadea" but Saddam does support terrorism. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2846365.stm | ||
| Todd W. McLain (Ganryu) Member Username: Ganryu Post Number: 174 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wow, this thread went from politics to grammer in under six hours. That's got to be some sort of a record. | ||
| TPH (Snowman) Senior Member Username: Snowman Post Number: 331 Registered: 12-2002 |
Paul L.- Without Saddam the Iraqi people can someday hold free elections. They can re-build their once proud culture which has been stolen from them by a brutal dictator. Their suffering will eventually end and the world will be a better place. Yes violence is what will bring this about, but how else could we rid the world of someone such as Saddam? We have tried inspections and sanctions to no avail. I think it's terrible to have a war but worse to leave him in power. Saddam has left us no other avenue and the reponsibility is on him, not us. Saddam has left us no other recourse but to go in and remove him violently. By the way 82' Rangie grey market, nice! Post some pics someday. S- | ||
| Greg (Gparrish) Senior Member Username: Gparrish Post Number: 1147 Registered: 04-2002 |
Kennith, just to bust your balls, when you did your edit, you missed this one: "The second point relating to the first sentance in your posting " (sentence) And Paul, I hear France is a peace loving country that probably has some real estate for sale..... hint, hint........... | ||
| Eric N (Grnrvr) Senior Member Username: Grnrvr Post Number: 1272 Registered: 02-2002 |
Here we go again. Paul L. why don't you go join the Iraqi army and fight for your views if you feel that this war is wrong. Quit talking about it and do some thing about it. | ||
| Greg (Gparrish) Senior Member Username: Gparrish Post Number: 1148 Registered: 04-2002 |
After reading my post above, I guess I need to make the part about France clear. I am suggesting that Paul moves to France. Just felt like I needed to make that abundantly clear. Didn't want anyone to get the wrong idea. | ||
| TPH (Snowman) Senior Member Username: Snowman Post Number: 332 Registered: 12-2002 |
Clarity is important on D-Web. Hey Eric- Are'nt you expecting a new addition? So is my friend and he is as getty as can be. Sleepness nights ahead! S- | ||
| David Morin (Sporin) New Member Username: Sporin Post Number: 20 Registered: 02-2003 |
I was very much against military action in Iraq right up until 8pm Wed. I always thought Saddam need to be taken out, but felt it could have eventually been done without a full scale military effort. That point is moot now. Now that our boys are fighting, it's time to clam up, and give them our support. Wish them well, wish them a speedy victory with as few casualties as possible, and then get them home safe. I don't understand the protesters at this point. This isn't Vietnam, a long protracted war where drafted teenagers are dying. We've been there 3 days, we are winning decisively and somewhat easily. Put down your signs for a few days and just send the troops your best wishes for a while. If it drags out for years and years and your sons get drafted to fight, then fine... protest, I'll be right there with you. But right now, the anti-war movement has lost. Inciting violence in San Francisco isn't solving anything. Accept it (I have) and support your countrymen. I come from a long line of military men, so my allegiance MUST always be with the fighting men and women of the USA when they are in harms way, regardless of whether I think we should have gone in the first place. The time for that thinking is over. now... it's time to kick ass and get 'em home safe. | ||
| Eric N (Grnrvr) Senior Member Username: Grnrvr Post Number: 1273 Registered: 02-2002 |
Yes, TPH, she was born Saturday the 8th in this fine country where she has rights unlike some sand dunes where women are beaten and tortured for having their own opinions or talking for that matter. I've been trying real hard to stay away from these "we hate war, we hate republicans" posts since they really get me pissed off. | ||
| TPH (Snowman) Senior Member Username: Snowman Post Number: 333 Registered: 12-2002 |
Hey congrats! I thought you were AWOL here awhile and that was the reason. Quite an amazing thing to see a little one come into the world eh? I can vividly remember mine being born. After they cleaned off the cheesey stuff they were really quite cute! Well have fun, they get big and mouthy fast!  S- | ||
| ed hart (Adifferentedh) Member Username: Adifferentedh Post Number: 51 Registered: 12-2002 |
Eric, That's great , what are the stats ? Name ? Best wishes , when it comes to family we all have a common ground . David , I agree that now is the time to support our troops , and hope for a speedy end to this conflict . CC Misguided , I agree and disagree . I don't believe that the protesters should be or are trying to send a message to our military , rather trying to send a message to our government . Maybe vigils or another form of demonstration would be more appropriate , but they don't have the shock value , and wouldn't hit the 6 o'clock news . That is truly sad. Ed P.S. Please feel free to critique my grammar and speelin. | ||
| Mark & Bev Preston (Markp) Member Username: Markp Post Number: 166 Registered: 02-2002 |
Paul, Glad you support the troops but you do need to wake up. First off, Bush is not an unjust leader and he did not steal the election. As an independant, it was Gore that tried to steal the election by counting chads forever. How many times did they try and recount? Geesh! I'm glad our judicial system stood up to the thieves. Gore couldn't even win his own state! As for the war, you need to read the following artiles. When your done, rethink you position on an unjust war and the terrorism. FLASHBACK: Iraq/Al Qaeda Connection, As Reported By Janes Janes.com ^ | 9/19/2001 | Janes Foreign Report http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/fr/fr010919_1_n.shtml The Iraqi-Bin Laden Connection http://www.geocities.com/republican_strategist//Iraq-Bin-Laden.html Silica Weaponization confirmed in Daschle anthrax AFIP ^ | 2/12/03 | AFIP http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/841386/posts “Silica prevents the anthrax from aggregating, making it easier to aerosolize. Significantly, we noted the absence of aluminum with the silica. This combination had previously been found in anthrax produced by Iraq.” .. And why I will not (Iraqis To Protestors: "Not In Our Name") Guardian ^ http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/844255/posts "After your march, when you return to your cosy little house basking in a warm self-congratulatory glow at the thought of a job well done, perhaps you'd spare a minute or two to pen a letter to Dr Khalaf [see below] and explain to him why his fellow Iraqis should be left at the mercy of Saddam. I'm sure he'd appreciate it, he might even forward them to his relatives who are still in Iraq - I'm sure they'd be interested in your expert views. " March 16, 1988 - Iraqi gas attack on Halabja 15 years ago killed 5,000 Kurds Agence France-Presse | March 16, 2003 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/866090/posts I'm sure the Kurds would like to talk to you about your "violence is not the answer" position. - Mark | ||
| Lawrence Tilly (L_tilly) Member Username: L_tilly Post Number: 114 Registered: 02-2002 |
Thanks for the pointers, Mark. That's the kind of items I was suggesting in my message. FreeRepublic is a great source. Of course I was posting my message after about 14 hours of hacking thru application problems and I was a little too fried to seek out links like those. -Lawrence | ||
| Steve (Steve2) New Member Username: Steve2 Post Number: 29 Registered: 09-2002 |
paul i can understand your feelings, but i cannot understand why you cannot see the bigger picture. i agree with you on the anti war protestors. most see to be disenfranchised individuals who would protest anything if they had a chance and perhaps a job, or a few less piercings... i think they are using the opportunity to just get on tv. or they feel it is a way fo them to feel that they are somehow contributing to a cause. what really puzzles me is the how religious people can protest the war. i guess they have given up their lives to their god and this is just another extention of that. they too cannot see past their cloth. here are some facts for you to ponder. 1: the current iraqi govt is a crimminal regime. they rule by fear and cruelty. 2: saddam rules with an iron fist. he is not a nice guy. what makes him VERY dangerous to the western world is that he is a thug with money. 3: his sons are some of the most saddistic and pathalogical heirs to power in the world. again there are alot more - but they have money with multiplies their threat. 4: most of the iraqi people are for the removal of saddam. arabs want to be arabs and do their arab things. they are a warm and lovely people for the most part. 5: saddam is instrumental in fanning the flames of the palestinian uprising. he pays the families of the brainwashed suicide bombers. these people kill civillians on purpose. and now this is the important part. they do not distinguish between combat and civillian personnel.... did you get that? now let's take that theme of not distinguishing between civillians and the military. they also do not distinguish between israelis and americans. we / they are all same. did you get that???? civillians, military, americans, israelis = the SAME. saddam is a sick bastard, but his sons are even sicker. our 'friends' the sell out french, have been selling the iraqi thugs WEAPONS grade uranium, as well as highly toxic pesticides. they are spending big money on making weapons of mass destruction. it would only be a matter of time before many many thousands of americans, israelis are the victims of some horrendous act funded, armed and sent to us courtesey of the crimminal iraqi regime. so you want to wait until then? a stable democratic iraq will completely change the face of the arab world - from a place of festering terrorism to a model of what the world can be like if the people are allowed to govern themselves with the best political model we as modern man have been able to establish so far. steve | ||
| Jim H. (Victor_mature) New Member Username: Victor_mature Post Number: 21 Registered: 02-2003 |
Paul, don’t kid yourself, you ARE a coward. But that’s okay, you’re allowed to cower and cringe behind the brave souls who will protect you. Violence, sometimes, IS the answer. Violence was the answer in 1776, in 1914, in 1941, in 1950, in 1991 and yes, even in 1968. I no longer give a shit what the rest of the world thinks of us Americans. Maybe they better start worrying about what we think of them. By the way, fuck the French, fuck the Canadians, fuck the Germans and fuck the Iraqi’s –oh, wait, they’re already fucked. Oh, and Ron Brown, unless you drive an electric car don’t even BEGIN to criticize the importance of $1 gas. Jim H. 2nd Bn (Airborne) 187th Inf. (retired) | ||
| Peter W. Pfeifer (Pwp) New Member Username: Pwp Post Number: 14 Registered: 10-2002 |
mis guided.....stole the election......evidence has been published Paul are you real, you beleive everything you read. How the ____ do you STEEL an election ? As for the rest I won't even start with dates (thanks to JIM...thanks JIM) You enjoy your realatively safe world and freedom here Paul, you can thank war for that. You may not like the sound of it, but please be realistic. | ||
| Kennith P. Whichard III (Kennith) Member Username: Kennith Post Number: 250 Registered: 05-2002 |
Greg, You got me again. Keep working that fine toothed comb. Paul, "you sleep peacably at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on your behalf." -somebody Cheers, Kennith | ||
| Greg (Gparrish) Senior Member Username: Gparrish Post Number: 1153 Registered: 04-2002 |
??????? Different Greg, Kennith. Don't tell me we are gonna have to go back to using that G1, G2, G3, etc....... stuff again to keep up with all of us Greg's..... | ||
| Greg Davis (Gregdavis) Senior Member Username: Gregdavis Post Number: 751 Registered: 08-2002 |
G2 here. | ||
| Kyle Van Tassel (Kyle) Moderator Username: Kyle Post Number: 140 Registered: 11-2002 |
But ole Paul wants to save the French for them meteor.... Go figure Kyle "Blow me" | ||
| Kennith P. Whichard III (Kennith) Senior Member Username: Kennith Post Number: 253 Registered: 05-2002 |
Which one of you Gregs knows DonC? | ||
| Kennith P. Whichard III (Kennith) Senior Member Username: Kennith Post Number: 254 Registered: 05-2002 |
What is this, He ran off? Just like his type... Make a statement and run from the repercussions. Cheers, Kennith | ||
| Don Collins (Donc) Member Username: Donc Post Number: 87 Registered: 04-2002 |
Kennith wrong Gregg.. I think he got banned from the site. Long story but look in the archives. Glad to see you made it home ok. Great meeting up with you. | ||
| R. B. Bailey (Rover50987) Senior Member Username: Rover50987 Post Number: 444 Registered: 07-2002 |
Oh, boy, it's spring break... should I post? Should I get involved here? ...hummmmmmmm.... First, look at the election in this way (actually, try reading the Constitution first) Because we all know just how close it was... so how do we solve it? Two teams are playing in the 7 game world series. The first game team A scored 35 runs, team B scored none. The second game team A scored 35 runs, team B scored none. However, during the next 4 games team A scored only 1 run per game, and team B scored 2 per game. Team B wins the world series, even though team A scored more points... Gore did get a slight majority of the popular vote, but Bush won the electoral vote. Yes, it was close, but both Bush and Gore had their post election strategies to win Florida - Bush's won out. If you have a problem with that; either wait 4 years and try again. Or change the way they do the world series, and then ammend the Constitution. Whatever you do, stop whining. Second read U.N. Resolution 1441. Third: Blood for Oil... oh brother - if we really wanted the oil we would just buy it from them. Or raid Anwar. You said, "there has been no intel to date showing that there are any ties between the gov. of iraq and terror groups. To call this war an extention of the war on terror is a falicy." Well, nothing of significance in Iraq happens outside of the knowledge or even support of the government. We know that terrorists train there - do your homework - there are pictures all over the web right now of the 707 at a camp that is used for hijack training... This said, I admire your support for our troops. You have every right so speak your mind about our pres. about your views of the country and the war. But it would be wrong to not support our troops, so thank you, on their behalf. Finally: "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight; nothing he cares about more than his own personal safety; is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions and blood of better men than himself." - John Stuart Mill | ||
| Eric N (Grnrvr) Senior Member Username: Grnrvr Post Number: 1274 Registered: 02-2002 |
Ed and TPH.. Heather Michele N. was born at 2:54pm Saturday the 8th of this month. She was 8 pounds 6 ounces. My wife only had to push 8 times (30 minutes) and the baby was out. The doctor said that she hasn't even seen second time mothers have a baby that fast much less a first timer. Yes, it was something that I could have done without seeing. I was trying not to look but, it was like a train wreck I just couldn't turn away. As for the rest of this topic I'll stay out of it. I think that from reading some of my other posts in the past on this people pretty much know where I stand on it and it's not on the free love, kisses for all, and hemp flip flops side of things. | ||
| Brian Kluge (Brianwi) New Member Username: Brianwi Post Number: 33 Registered: 10-2002 |
Paul Londrigan, to confirm your last sentence, yes we did take a wrong turn somewhere. The year was 1979 and the President was Jimmy Carter. The country took another wrong turn when Reagan negotiated with terrorists. | ||
| Kristen PETILLON (Krys_french) New Member Username: Krys_french Post Number: 1 Registered: 04-2003 |
Hi to all, I just wanted to drop a little note here to tell you that i'm French, and proud to be, and i'm a disco owner (that's why i initially came to visit discoweb some month ago). I would like to explain all the reasons why i think that the ongoing war against Irak is not the best choice that has been made. I just want to tell you some things (and i think it's very representative of the average french points of vue). Of course I am against Saddam. Of course this guy is just evil, and needs to be put out of the Irak's political system. And of course we understand that Irakies are suffering. I am against the war because on my opinion, it was possible to use other ways to reach this objective to disarm Irak and put Saddam down. Negociations, and pressure form other countries would have been one of these ways. War will only bring death to Irakies... And i don't understand why Mr Bush hasn't been waiting for a UN resolution, or at least try to change his communication methods. No evidence has been brought to justify such a war ! I also would like to tell you that i've read many "Fuck France, and French" and etc. I'm very ashamed by these words, and i hope some of you that wrote it just did it because of the tension these days. Anyway, i find it so irrespectfull ! I hoped some more maturity from you all. I'm glad to know that some of the families i know in Florida, that i have visited several times, are more respectful for just a different point of vues, and that they don't "Fuck Me". I also would like to add that now that your soldiers are in the storm of war, i do really hope that this war is going to be as fast as possible, and that the minimum of them will die (which seems to be a helpless hope). And i do really hope that the US (and UK) government attitude won't worsen the global situation with terrorism (but i believe it will, but i'm not worried for France for now). Well, hope to discuss with some of you about this. Krys | ||
| Lester Ray Gerber (Raygerber) New Member Username: Raygerber Post Number: 26 Registered: 09-2002 |
Krys- Perhaps you can provide some insight into what value to diplomacy your country brought to the UN by broadcasting an ultimatium with regard to vetoing any further resolutions after 1441. It is interesting that you point out that we should have waited when it was the French's absolute position that made diplomacy untenable-unless you follow the theory that containment was the way to go, which most Americans, in the post 9/11 age, don't want to wait to have a CBRN (Chem/Bio/Radiological/Nuclear) 9/11. To follow up that last point I think it is interesting that some countries think that the situation can be worsened by taking the fight to the middle east. Evidence shows that terrorists are emboldened by success and recruiting and operational planning increases after such events (Cole bombing, African Embassy bombings, etc) and by contrast failures or disruptions lead to less recruiting and operational planning (and execution). Thus the only way to maintain the initiative is to continue to pursue them wherever they are. Iraq is a perfect example of a rogue state with WMD that is flaunting its refusal to comply in the eyes of the world-can we afford to wait until they decide to equip terrorist groups with WMD? Understandably France's position is colored by the significant economical ties to Iraq, the large Muslim population in your country and a desire to mitigate US power-I don't hold it against you or France, I just reject it b/c it smacks of appeasment and we've been down this road for France before. Continental Europe doesn't fear the terrorists as much as the UK/US alliance b/c you (continentally speaking) provide a safe haven for logistics, finance and recruiting and most groups are not willing to bite the hands that feed them. The evidence for this conflict has existed since 15 days after the cease fire from the first gulf war expired-we finally have someone willing to do something about it. I apologize for the hostility you have felt, it is a reflection of the frustration we feel at having an "ally" openly declare themselves in opposition of us despite mutual recognition of Iraq's defiance. regards Ray | ||
| Krys_P (Krys_french) New Member Username: Krys_french Post Number: 2 Registered: 04-2003 |
Hi Ray, Thanks for your post. I am not convinced that the diplomacy process was untenable, and I am more thinking that the heavy mobilisation of US troup around Irak was a strong symbol for the will to reduce the power of the terrorists (whitch i agree seems to arise everywhere, and even in France, i'm sure some groups are hidden somewhere). I'm convinced that some acceleration in the cooperation of Iraq to meet the objective of UN resolution 1441 is due to the presence of massive US force in the Middle East. I'm then convinced that Iraq was in the process of accepting all conditions for inspectors, and this would have been a great success for UN, and for US (participating to this pressure), without the need of a war. Now i guess that terrorist will have more anger against US (unfortunatly, and beleive that all french where very touched by what happened 11/9). But we will see what the future will be made of. But believe that all precautions are taken here to chase for the underground terrorist groups ! Police and Army is everywhere in the cities and airports. To me France position is not due to the economical ties with Iraq. The umbargo since last war reduced exchanges to nothing with Iraq. I am convinced that our president didn't try to challenge US power, which could have be done by other ways like being very active in a war against Iraq, close to US people. I have to be honest i was sure that our president would at the end find a dumb excuse to participate to the war and take the parts (economy thinking) of the reconstruction. But he didn't ! Suprisingly. Well glad to here you apologies, my deep thougth is that we are trying to go the same ways, but with differents means (with their own advantages/drawbacks)... Krys | ||
| M. K. Watson (Lrover94) Senior Member Username: Lrover94 Post Number: 721 Registered: 02-2002 |
IMHO....if those who had a vested interest in the preverntion of war would have supported the war as a means or an extension of diplomacy, there is a real great chance that no war would have happen or would have happen on a scale much smaller than that what we see now. sir, france did no one justice in its opposition to armed conflict in fact my french friend, france made war the only choice. we have like all free people the right to live in peace. we also as free people have the obligation to ensure that all PEOPLES are free from oppression, including those whom the french deal with..... mike w | ||
| Lester Ray Gerber (Raygerber) New Member Username: Raygerber Post Number: 27 Registered: 09-2002 |
Krys- It is interesting that you recognize the few concessions made by the Iraqis were due to the pressure of forces in the region, but think that by maintaining that pressure we would eventually disarm the Iraqis. If you take the disarmament of South Africa, or several of the Former Soviet Republics, where there was an open process of disarmament with the focus on the absolute assurance to the world of total voluntary disarmament and then compare it to the 12 years of duplicity on the part of the Iraqis which is well documented, I reject the premise that inspections would have worked. UNMOVIC was participating in a big easter egg hunt that was laughable if you detached yourself from the seriousness of the situation. The terrorists we have opposing us hate western civilization at its roots-they are not going to dislike us more or less because of politics or war, the bottom line is they have a philosophy that justifies their actions due to their religion. How could someone hate us more than what was exhibited on Sept 11th? With regard to the underlying economics you might want to take a look at the contracts between Saddam's government and ELF... they are very substantial and give the French quite a bit of influence in Iraq. Furthermore the examination of your president's long term relationship with Saddam deserves at least the same attention paid by the rhetoric spouting people who say this is a grudge by the younger Bush for the elder Bush. The evidence, in many american's view, that France was attempting to stop the U.S. at all costs is overwhelming. So much so that Colin Powell, Europe's hope for rationale thought in the current administration, is reportedly enraged at France's arrogant position of being the "counterweight" to the U.S. in the world. I guess in U.S. terms we could say that if you want to play in the NFL, put on the pads. But that is the arrogant American in me speaking out. In a much more cultural manner, perhaps the example that the French set throughout the world in their colonial era is a good one to follow-much like the current unilateral action in the Ivory Coast being carried out by your country regardless of the feelings of the people who inhabit that area. Just some food for thought- Ray | ||
| Rans (Rans) Senior Member Username: Rans Post Number: 443 Registered: 08-2002 |
Krys, In simple terms, I believe that France's failure to become part of the Alliance to pressure Saddam to comply with not just 1441 but with the 5 or 6 previous requirements is the main reason our young men are fighting and dying right now. France, Germany, Russia, and China all have deep financial motivations to keep Iraq out of a war. I believe I heard somethign to the tune of $14bil in Military arms from France alone!! Look into it and you will find that France was regularly breaking the Embargo for 10 years. Russia is owed SO much money by Iraq, and they are SO desperate for hard currency that they need a status quo to keep existing. China is sending more armaments to Iraq then France! You said: "I'm then convinced that Iraq was in the process of accepting all conditions for inspectors." I'm sorry to be rude Krys, but thats merde!! Perhaps this is the crux of the situation. Saddam was doing NOTHING to comply except throw a few bones to create this very controversy. Example: Saddam claimed they have NO MORE Scud Missles. So where have the scuds come from that they have been hurling at Kuwait???? Krys, are you aware of all of the WMS evidence that the UN had accumulated in the last 10 years since the last Gulf War ended? Perhaps you should look into that. The Chemical plants, the plutonium facilities....do some research, I'm too busy to do it for you, but it's all there. Most importantly, get your head out of the sand. I hate war too, but I will not risk losing any more of my family to this madman. I lost a sister-in-law in the world trade center madness, and I feel that if we don't step up and take an aggressive stance then we will just be a target for every lunatic terrorist out there. Yes, there will be more of them coming forward now, but I am not convinced that we wouldn't have seen them anyway. Perhaps an aggressiove stance, and the dismantling of the greatest terrorist stronghold in history, will prevent some of that, not to mention liberate the Iraqi people from this madman. Last, it's very easy for you to sit back in your chair and say what you say, but you haven't been the target of the terrorist abuse. We, the USA, provide more humanitarian relief to the rest of the world then all of France's economy produces, much less shares. For the French people to not be there for the USA after we bailed your asses out of German occupation, not once, but twice in the past 80 years is unforgivable. Let us not hope you need it again, because unlike your people, we will most likely step up again and bail you out again to give you another chance to spit at us! | ||
| Camille Brown (Discolady) New Member Username: Discolady Post Number: 11 Registered: 02-2003 |
Way to go Rans, DITTO...in addition I believe the french also sold Uranium to iraq and they were in the process of refining the material when the Israelis did us a favor and blew it to bits... If france had the balls to at least listen to the last resolution put forth by te US/UK and other countries we probably wouldn't be here now and it appears that since this war began and with all the evidence coming forth-the french are still in denial...I can't for the life of me understand how one country can be so dense...but I guess they have had years to perfect!! I also don't think that the french should be able to come in after and participate in the reconstruction of iraq, I think they have had enough time to make their money, they haven't given a lick of support, but want to join the party after all the work is done, what else is new, the french are definitely not known for sticking through the tough times, but sure will belly up for "wine and brie"!! whatever... the 'f' is in lower case for a reason! | ||
| Gregg Smith (Gregg) New Member Username: Gregg Post Number: 1 Registered: 04-2003 |
France wants to participate in the reconstruction so that they can secure their oil contracts and maybe sell the Iraqis another Nuclear reactor!!! "Cheese eating surrender monkeys!"-Groundskeeper Willy Rules!!! | ||
| Britt Easterly (Britt) Member Username: Britt Post Number: 46 Registered: 09-2002 |
I think what you have to do is understand American foreign policy: Compliance through superior firepower! And with that I rest | ||
| M. K. Watson (Lrover94) Senior Member Username: Lrover94 Post Number: 723 Registered: 02-2002 |
"Compliance through superior firepower" we aren't the first to use that policy, we just perfected it. mike w | ||
| Gregg Smith (Gregg) New Member Username: Gregg Post Number: 3 Registered: 04-2003 |
Can I get a AMEN! | ||
| Blake Monchilovich (Azblake) New Member Username: Azblake Post Number: 29 Registered: 02-2003 |
Remember, SUV's support terrorism. | ||
| Mark & Bev Preston (Markp) Member Username: Markp Post Number: 181 Registered: 02-2002 |
Looks like the French have some explaining to do. French smear Brit dead The Sun (U.K.) ^ | 04/02/03 | SIMON HUGHES http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/882464/posts | ||
| Mtb (Mtb) New Member Username: Mtb Post Number: 13 Registered: 02-2003 |
Krys To me France position is not due to the economical ties with Iraq. The umbargo since last war reduced exchanges to nothing with Iraq http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2757797.stm | ||
| Mtb (Mtb) New Member Username: Mtb Post Number: 14 Registered: 02-2003 |
Krys http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/oil/2002/0919threats.htm http://frontpagemag.com/articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=6976 Also could you tell us about the French-Iraqi Association for Economic Cooperation. I see there is a meeting scheduled for April 3rd The bad part is that someday France will need help for some reason and guess who will be there to help The USA | ||
| Curtis N (Curtis) Senior Member Username: Curtis Post Number: 2553 Registered: 05-2002 |
Paul, Thanks for allowing most of us a glimpse into the minsdet of a person involved in the the anti-war movement. It has helped up all better understand why we are at war. Curtis | ||
| Krys_P (Krys_french) New Member Username: Krys_french Post Number: 3 Registered: 04-2003 |
Hi Everybody, Thanks for your posts and points of vue. I respect them all. I can't reply to every argument that you arised, as lacking time (and i dislike the clock difference between our countries, making it so difficult to follow up the discussion). I just want to highlight some points. Mike W, i'm sure that your president was so convinced, from the beginning of the conflict, that war was just unavoidable, that if we would have been supporting US decision to make war, this one would have been started faster, and would have seen more blood on Irak. And please, don't forget that France is not the only country to be opposed to a military intervention in Irak. There are so many "Free People" that express their opinion (against war, and even in US), that i think it would deserve more respect and attention. Ray, to me there is a real question about what happened in 91. Why was the "job" not finished at that time. Why was the war stopped and Irak left alone for the ten coming years? I don't have the answers. Of course seeing that pressure was of, Saddam has been able to not care for inspections. The pressure should have been maintained, giving credibility to inspectors, has what has been done by your guys, before the second intervention on Irak, this violence could have been avoided. I think that France has exactly the same reasons to stay in the reconstruction process of Irak than US does. Somebody said that 11% of the currently known oil resources is nothing (plenty of more research to do in the south !). I disagree, it's enormous. Every country on this planet would have interests in staying in the area to use the oil resources. It's going to be vital for the coming year's oil control on earth. It would have been much easier for France (if we were just thinking about economy) to just agree with US, and get a big piece of the cake instead of nothing coming out ! Rans, there has been no proof given to UN nations by inspectors that WMS and nuclear and chemical plants has been found operationnal in Iraq. Your soldiers are still looking for evidence these days in North Iraq. The inspectors only found conventional middle range missiles (150km action range). Only some of these missiles have been fired for now, and no long range mass destruction weapons. And one additional question to all of you : Do you think that Saddam would wait before firing your soldiers with chemical weapons or mass destruction stuff ? Why is there no attaq of this type in the conflict ? On my opinion, they don't have those types of weapon. And if their would be attacks of these types, France would immediatly support war. DOn't forget too, that we are helping your troups in the war, by sending there our specialized centers to deal with nuclear, chemical, and biological hazard (in case of...). Rans, believe that I'm very sorry if you lost somebody close to you in the 11/9 tragedy. Once again we all have been sensitive to what occured. You say "but I will not risk losing any more of my family to this madman", I'm sorry to say so, but, with war, some US citizen are loosing their family in Iraq. Don't forget all, that it's always the price for a war. The loose of massive lifes (often innocent ! And that's mainly why i am against a war). Rans you say "but you haven't been the target of the terrorist abuse". That is untrue. Very untrue. Don't forget that in the 80's we were the target of terrorist groups too. Myself i'have been two suburb train station away from a bomb attaq in Paris, that killed 50 people. I heard the bombing myself. So we know what is terrorism, and we fight against it ! And please don't serve this stupid argument of "we rescued you from German that why it's unforgivable for you to not be with us". The situation is not the same now than in the WWars. Your country would be invaded by another nation, that would conquest your land and nation and kill you people, we would immediatly be here supporting you to fight against the invador. Don't mix up the situations. If the countries that said "no" to war would have been convinced that Iraq has weapon of mass destruction, and intended to use them, we would have been by your side. Camille, yes french sold nuclear technology to build a power plant. And UK sold chemical gases to Iraq, and US sold weapons to Iraq army too ! You say that we should have been open to your explanation, but your government hasn't been very open to other countries explanations either. Mark, I am very sorry that some fanatics do treated Uk dead people this way (rosbeef = Uk people in french). And i completly disagree with this direspect (our governement did condamn these messages) as i disagree with people writing "Fuck France". And to answer another post somewhere on the forum, if tomorow an asteroid would threat US, i'm sure that you would all receive our full help and support. We wouldn't wait and laugth at you watching the disaster on TV. I would be the first one to open my home to you. I just have one wish for now (i won't ask you to change your opinion, but to understand, that a different opinion is possible, understandable, and has to be respected). It's just to make you understand that even if France government hasn't been supporting your military action and decision, I think it just unwize to act with too much anger against us. Once again, and i hope there is no misunderstanding in my speech, I'm completly against Saddam, but i am also against war, and i hoped that some lifes (Us, and Iraqies) could have been saved by staying on the diplomatic side of the conflict resolution. I don't believe that such a tension between our countries can harm a long lasting friendship between us. And if anybody from DiscoWeb comes some time in France, don't hesitate to ask, i'll be pleased to introduce you to our friends, landrover addicted ! With a lot of respect to all of you , Krys | ||
| Rans (Rans) Senior Member Username: Rans Post Number: 444 Registered: 08-2002 |
Krys, I feel very bad for you because your country has put you in a difficult situation. You are clearly an intelligent woman, and you speak far better English than I do French, but none-the-less you are as uninformed of the reality as the Iraqi people. I lived in Belgium for 5 years in teh early 1970s and spent enough time in France, particularly in Paris, to know that the arrogance of the French people, and the anti-American sentiment displayed all the way back into the 60's, serves no respect to the country that came to your aid so many times in the last 100 years. (I forgot to mention that we also rescued you in the late 19th century when the entire French wine industry was brought to it's knees by a blight to the grape harvest. When all the vines had to be burned throughout your country, it was the USA that sent replacement plants to help you recover.) I'm sorry that you can't see what is in front of your face, but I value highly that you have the freedom to express yourselves, and also the freedom to disagree with our policy. Should that freedom be taken from you again, you can be assured that it will be the USA helping again. But to hope that there will be friendship again between our countries? I can't see it happening. Your people have stood against us in everything since WWII, why would we want to be friendly? Good day to you, and good luck. | ||
| Lester Ray Gerber (Raygerber) New Member Username: Raygerber Post Number: 28 Registered: 09-2002 |
Krys- First off I am amazed at your tolerance since you haven't responded in kind to quite a few jabs taken at you and your country-deserved or otherwise. That being said the reason why the "job" wasn't finished in 91 is the coalition that we wrapped the liberation of Kuwait into didn't have the stomach to carry out such a task and in the interests of being multilateral we didn't break with the coalition at the moment of triumph-despite the retrospective intelligence of it. With regard to the current use of Chem/Bio weapons I think a primer in the actual value of these weapons in a military conflict is in order. For all intents and purposes neither Chemical or Biological weapons have a lot of value against well trained military forces-for different reasons. As you can see on TV all of our forces are wearing chemical protective gear, many have vehicles with overpressure systems to further protect them, and we move enough that the effectivness of such munitions is quickly reduced. Bio weapons take time to be effective and at this point Saddam doesn't have a lot of time to try to make a bunch of Marines and soldiers sick. Furthermore the hostile environment of Iraq makes delivery and persistence of Chem and Bio weapons problematic. Chem/Bio weapons, much like nuclear weapons, are better for detterent, for intimidation, and for use on civilians. At this point there is very little value added for Saddam to use these weapons as hope remains for a cease fire or intervention by the UN, if the threshold of Chem/Bio is breached even most Arab countries would have to say "You were right," much less France and the rest of the resisting community. God forbid in the next few weeks we may see the last acts of a desperate dictator employ those weapons on our troops, neighboring countries, or even his own people. While you are correct that several nations support your point of view, it is also true that the U.S. has gathered the second largest coalition of forces in history to tend to this issue-so to say we are isolated is fundamentally flawed. Despite the time differences this has been an interesting discourse, your knowledge of english is superb. I only hope that by illustrating the way many of us feel here you can gain an understanding of why we feel so slighted here and exactly how much Sept 11th changed our outlook. regards | ||
| Krys_P (Krys_french) New Member Username: Krys_french Post Number: 4 Registered: 04-2003 |
Rans, First of all, I'm a man, sorry, but in France, Kristen, that comes from Nordic countries is for Males. Thanks for the compliments anyway about english and neuronal capacities !!! Lol. Don't worry for myself, i feel I am not in a difficult siutation. I just wanted to warn you about the clichés, like the anti-americanism in France, and our "arrogance". For instance, i don't think that many clichés about US citizens are true. Don't worry that France has also helped America in the History (Lafayette, Gulf War I,etc. ), and these arguments of what happened in the past are too light to make me change my opinion about the war. If today i save your life let's say like you are about to be hit by a car crossing a street. And that the day after, i start trying to kill someone else explaining to you "He is threatening me and my familly". If you are not convinced that the guy i'm trying to kill is a real threat for me and my familly, that you don't have prooves, will you support me, or say "Uuuhhh, wait, there is maybe another way, let's understand the situation first !". I have also visited US several times (and not as long and often as i wish to, because i think there are so many things to see, discover, and learn form this country, and I enjoyed being with people i met so well), and i have also noticed some things about US culture (not at all the ones that the clichés usually shows) like medias propaganda, that make me think that you also maybe don't always see what is in front of your face. And finally, i'm not agreeing with your point of vue about friendship between France and US. Once again, i have many friends over there, and links between our countries are much stronger than the tension bought by the Gulf events. Why would you want to be friendly with us ? Because we have many common interests to share, because both countries share so many things in common together (and the competition between Europe and US, is much more positive than destructive for the world, bringing each country to be better everyday). Good day to you too, hope to read you again, and good luck to your guys in Irak too. I hope their wont be too many lifes lost in this war, on both sides (I am too idealistic ? Maybe, that a quality anyway). | ||
| Krys_P (Krys_french) New Member Username: Krys_french Post Number: 5 Registered: 04-2003 |
Ray, Well, as i previously said, there is no way i could say "Fuck off" to people on the forum. Because this would be a non constructive way to discuss with you, because i respect your own positions, even if this is not the opinion i share, and most of all, because myself (and many french people behind me) don't have anything to blame on the US citizens. Once again, we share the same main ideas, only the means are different. Why then should we be so rude to each other ? We are big persons in countries were freedom has been saved by many events in our past, and we are able to communicate with real words and sentences, and not only "Fuck you". Thanks for your explantion on both 91' war end, and chem/bio weapon use. I have read somewhere that the allys against Iraq (we were part of them remember) at that time were starting to fear that the other countries pro-irak would come and fight against "us" at that time. And that it was time to calm down spirits. We'll never know what's behind the story, anyway, there are so many interests in this area (geo-economical-political) that most of the truth will remain hidden. News won't never show the real side of events. About chem/bio, i would be Saddam (hopefully i'm not), strategically speaking, i would launch a great bunch of whatever i have in my caves on the coallition to slow down the progression of army's, and this would give me plenty of time to organize a proper defense. Your arguments are still very plausible. If saddam show the world that US was right about Weapon of Mass Destruction, then all countries (France included) would reduce Iraq to ashes... Thanks for your posts, done also very wisely and constructive. You know if i'm not too bad in speaking or writing english, it's just that i love it. So if we can continue chatting and discussing about the crisis with such an adult way, and expressing ourselves constructivly, well, that's perfect ! Believe that we are very sentitive about terrorism, once again, we know what it is to be hit in our country, and that innocent are killed for a stupid cause, and understand that i'm very open to your arguments (except for things like "Fuck France" !!! ), and my hope is that some of you understand that it our opinion is also very valuable as being out of the conflict. It's alsways interesting to get several points of vues.... Regards, Krys | ||
| Rans (Rans) Senior Member Username: Rans Post Number: 446 Registered: 08-2002 |
My apologies for the gender confusion, I have a daughter named Kristen. Perhaps we can agree to disagree, at least until history gives us some perspective of this all. It is clear to me that you seek input from outside of France, after all, here you are taking us all on and more than holding your own in these discussions. I too read a great deal from outside of American news, as do so many on this BBS, and I listen the the BBC daily as well. I am not a proponent of war, I protested the Vietnam war when I was younger, but never at the expense of our boys over there, unlike too many others. But I strongly believe that if France, Germany, Russia and China had united with the US and Britain against Saddam Hussien over his failure to abide by 14 UN resolutions over the last 10 years, then there would be no war today. In short, I hold those 4 countries equally responsible as I do the US and UK for where we are today. | ||
| Krys_P (Krys_french) New Member Username: Krys_french Post Number: 6 Registered: 04-2003 |
Rans, No problem, the first time i came in the US for a "learn english" trip, the familly i was supposed to go to was expecting a girl ! They had a great suprise seeing the "big baby" coming to visit them : "Are you sure there is no mistake somewhere" !!! ;) But everything went very fine, and we started a really strong and long lasting friendship (she is my second mom, and my third mom is also american !!!). Could you please send my best regards to your daughter, from a french male "Kristen" ? That's always a great moment for me to know that some other "Kristen" do exist in the world, as not being very common here in France ! Yes, we definitively can agree to disagree on the means (once again, the final objectives of both our countries are the same), and yes, history will bring some more information on this conflict, and you'll see that time will erode anger and tension between our countries, and that we will continue the friendship we had for years... Looking forward to read you soon. Krys | ||
| M. K. Watson (Lrover94) Senior Member Username: Lrover94 Post Number: 724 Registered: 02-2002 |
Krys, please don't take the aggression you see here as a means for you not to visit and speak your mind, that is one of the great things about this particular forum, we all flap our gums and often are abrasive but we will listen to you and then point out how wrong you are. now then, apparently you fail to see the that solidarity (sp) would have spoken loudly to saddam and maybe just maybe a war could have been averted. well it didn't turn out that way and now we are asshole deep in the swamp. now we see on FOX NEWS and sometimes on the liberal channels that civilans are being placed in harms way. if we are to believe waht we see on the news it appears that those people have been the whipping post for a mad man for longer than the 12 years that the UN has been attempting to disarm that person. he tortures and kills people that have no means of protecting themselves, they have no means of standing up to him and stop him from commiting what can only be a genecide. he gased the Kurds killing what could be well beyond the numbers that have been broadcast. if you don't support this war you have to support his treatment of the people that live in Iraq. this my french friend is wrong. its beyond wrong you cannot tell me that if we had not invaded Iraq he would have found God and stopped his actions, you can't tell me that the UN would have stopped him, hell they have been there for 12 years and quite frankly i don't believe that the UN could find their asses with both hands. if they saw the state of the Iraq people and the cruelity they were being subjected to, they never reported or attempted to cause a change in those poor peoples plight. NO MA'AM (or sir) waiting was not the answer, not invading was not the answer. if not us someone, some country that had the resources need to step in and stop what has to be hell for the people, the soon to be FREE PEOPLES of Iraq. please tell me that i am wrong, show me that invading is wrong when you have men women and children being treated as they are being treated by saddam and his linchmen. mike w | ||
| Krys_P (Krys_french) New Member Username: Krys_french Post Number: 7 Registered: 04-2003 |
Hi Mike, Yeah, as you see I have enough balls to come and chat with you and explain myself... Just to answer your post, i completely agree about the evilness of saddam again, and i believe that with enough threats and pressure on the Irak's government (which could have involved a massive mobilisation of troups around the country as US did for a moment), UN (which US still belongs to as far as i know) would have been able to obtain whatever was required to satisfy everybody. That's my belief, and I maybe wrong as you maybe wrong. You arguments could be true, as mine. We won't know for now who is right or wrong. The only fact i see now, and that cannot be denied, is that iraqies are now taking tons of US and UK bombs on their head, and that once again, innoncent people including women and babies are killed. That's is just why i consider war not being the best solution. (and i definatly assure you that's I'm a real man with two balls, and skin hair on my body). That's also why (talking back about iraq, and not my balls), now that the conflict is engaged i wish for the world that this conflict is finished ASAP, or more and more people (including coallition soldiers will dye). Well gotta go for now. Looking forward to chatting with you too. Krys P.S. : As a Land Rover owner, i forgot to tell that i would never say "fuck you" to a LR enthousiast, and that i'm also chatting on LR french sites explaining that i'm discussing this topic with you! So now, many more french LR guys are visiting your forum... | ||
| Mark & Bev Preston (Markp) Member Username: Markp Post Number: 182 Registered: 02-2002 |
Krys, A few thoughts on this whole mess. This is a war against facism. The Iraq Baath Party formally the Baath Arab Socialist Party, is very similar to the German Nazi Party, the National Socialist German Workers Party. The tactics are very similar: Saddam's death chamber The Sun ^ | April 2, 2003 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/882385/posts As for civilian casualties I believe you will find that they were forced under gunpoint to commit acts of terrorism. Sure they are innocent but it's not bombs they are worried about. France appeased the Germans before WWII. They are repeating the same errors today. While WWII seems like a long time ago it really is not. Chirac was born in 1932, during the appeasement of Germany. I'm surprised he did not learn from history. I'm surprised the French people cannot see the parallels. France also has many demographic problems. Their birth rate does not support the many social programs of a aging population. French workers are closely tied to Communist unions, have 35 hour work weeks, retire in the 50's and recieve large public pensions. Unemployment is rising (more after the souring of US/Britian relations) and eastern EU members no longer view the Franco/German leadership as credible. Immigration is the only way to maintain this broken model. The immigration has been primarily Muslims. I raise these issues because it gives me an understanding as to the ability of France to make objective decisions. As for the UN it is severly damaged if not now irrelavent. While inspections were not working, Chirac's position that they would veto ANY use of force gave Saddamm all the wiggle room he needed. With the threat of veto there was no reason for Saddam to comply, even with military force sitting on his border. I believe Saddam thought that Bush was like Clinton and that Chirac would protect him. A significant miscalculation. So now the war is nearing it's end (yes, I believe we are within days) and France will sit this out both militarily and economically. It's unfortunate but the reforms that Chirac wants to make will be very difficult in an environment of high unemployment and workers unrest. But he should have seen that. Regards, Mark | ||
| Kevin Howell (Kevinhowell) Member Username: Kevinhowell Post Number: 48 Registered: 02-2003 |
threats and pressure on iraq's government? by whom? the french? the german? the russians? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! yeah, right. that would happen. if it wasn't happening of its own accord, then what is supposed to make us think that all of a sudden you guys would do it now. you crack me up. oh, i almost forgot. fuck france. | ||
| BW (Bwallace35) Member Username: Bwallace35 Post Number: 52 Registered: 07-2002 |
Lester, What experience and/or knowledge do you have on the military application of chemical and biological weapons? I'm just trying to figure out where you drew the conclusion that these weapons have little value. BW | ||
| Camille Brown (Discolady) New Member Username: Discolady Post Number: 12 Registered: 02-2003 |
Kyrs, maybe so, BUT NOT IN THE PAST 12 YEARS, you have failed miserably at making your point... I do agree that more pressure should have been put on iraq after '91, but Clinton (despite his faults) could not get the "international community" to support him finishing the job, he didn't have the balls to realize we could do this alone (althought we are not)...so now that we have a President with some balls, we hope to have this mess cleared up so as to avoid the french, germans and all the other cowards out there from getting your pretty little hands dirty!!!!! I don't think you will ever get it!!! discolady | ||
| Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Senior Member Username: Leslie Post Number: 1980 Registered: 02-2002 |
BW, Not to speak in place of Ray, but he's an Officer of Marines, he professionally knows all about them.... Conditions have to be ideal for chemical and biological weapons to be effective, against an unprepared populace. In a desert environment, against troops that are prepared to deal with them, they are a nuisance but not much more. FWIW... -L | ||
| exrover1 (Exrover1) New Member Username: Exrover1 Post Number: 1 Registered: 04-2003 |
It is not a simple matter of France opposing the war. Had France stated that, as matter of principle, they would not participate in this war and that they would use their vote on the security council to veto military action against Iraq, our friendship could have been more easily repaired. France's position could have been deemed honorable if not supportive. However, France did not stop at just voicing its opposition. France actively lobbied against the U.S. in the security council and on the world stage. They lobbied Turkey to deny the U.S. use of its land and airspace by threatening Turkey with delays in their bid to join the EC. Our other friends on the security council who were also opposed to the war did not engage in such aggressively unfriendly conduct. China and Russia, who do not share as meaningful a friendship with the U.S. as France, did not engage in openly hostile tactics. Germany’s opposition is not helpful to the U.S. but it has acted honorably towards its friend. The conduct of the French administration has betrayed a long and enduring friendship. Perhaps the mediocre and petulant Jacques Chirac is doing this in order to obtain a medal from the Norwegian Nobel prize committee. Maybe Jacques chIraq is doing it in order to thrust a fallen and former power back into world prominence. Either way, it is clear that the French government is not just opposed to the liberation of Iraq, it is directly actively opposed to its former friend. Adieu! | ||
| Krys_P (Krys_french) New Member Username: Krys_french Post Number: 8 Registered: 04-2003 |
Hi All, Mark, on my opinion, it's not very wize to try to compare the WWar crises and today's with Irak. All background is different, and i don't think that a same stimulus in both situations could have the same result. Motivations are not the same. About France and it's problem. The birth rate is a bit below the line of stability (i don't know the name in English), but we are far from being in a bad situation talking about this particular point. Talking about your analysis of the workers here (in France), be aware of clichés. I was amazed (and i had a good laugh, but no offence i promess) about communism. That's a very old rusty picture of our country. Communists don't have a single official position in todays government anymore. For 10 years now, this political party has been declining very fast. I tell you, communism influence in France is past for now. And the two last governments (10 years power), are much more capitalism oriented than comunism !!! Same for your other information, they are untrue. We are paid 35 hours per week, we do often work 50 hours a week, we retire at the age of 65, and the aids received by the state depend on your revenue and family situation. Unemployment is rising, due to the 11/9 after effect, and the government is strengthening the laws, and actions to send back non authorized immigrants. Immigration is reduced to almost nothing these days. The Franco-Germano duo in the EU is one of the strongest, and our "credibility" is mainly due to the strenght of our industry/technology, and we are far from being at the bottom of the scale. I hope this view from my side will give you another side of the problem. Mark again, this is amazing how our opinion can be different about the very deep root of the problem. I am convinced that since US has been threatening Irak with the mobilisation of the army in the Gulf that the inspections were effective. And that it was a matter of time before the inspectors could finish their job (that what's their chief said !). And you are convinced of the opposite ! I wonder if it is our own media/political propaganda that influenced this so much ! At least that's an interesting problem. And it's the root (i guess) of your decision to make war, and ours to not. I hope the conflict approaches the end for everybody. And don't worry about Chirac, he has gained a lot of popularity in France, and he will be (and he started this) abble to do very aggressive reforms that we need to be more competitive, and we won't have to pay a huge bill for a war... I am not worried for my country. Camille, we did get our hands "dirty" but not in the same way US is doing right now. We participated to the observation of the Irak's territory with planes that were looking for evidence of weapon of mass destruction. Once again, we do agree on the final objective of this crisis, we just disagree on the mean, because be don't think war was necessary : i don't think you will ever get it either !!! Exrover, France has been as active in defending it's position to try and convinced countries to not go to war, as US has been active to do the opposite. Don't blame it, that's the game, that's the rules. For instance, US promised money to countries, and economical help, if they were accepting to vote for a "go to war" in the UN. That is on my opinion at least as an agressive strategy as we did with only word and diplomacy. Once again, that's the diplomatic game, no shame to have on this. I think other countries were as active as France was, but your medias (Uk as well) just focused on the french actions (wonder why ? fear something ? ), and you have been influenced by this to consider France as the evil country in the crisis (well somebody always has to be guilty ?). To me it could also be a good strategy for your goverment to develop anger of US citizens against France. Exrover, please understand that France is for the liberation of Iraq from Saddam's evil governement. You don't get the point at all ! We just did not agree on the tool to use to free Iraq. We wanted to use diplomacy, you wanted to use force and army ! How the hell can i be clearer than this ! Don't just believe the shit you always see on your TV !!! You know, i have the luck here (and i call it a real luck) to not take the government and the news information etc, for granted. I always try to disconnect what i read/hear/see to what i honestly and personnaly think. My deep though is that media are very dangerous. As you can see, propaganda is everywhere, you are targets for your government propaganda, we are targets too, Iraqies are etc. So i always take a lot of precaution before i make up my mind. I even spend a lot of time reading english and US newspaper on the net, even looking at CNN on TV ! I just hope some of you (and i know it's the case) dont just take one source of information to make up their opinion... Well, thanks again for your posts that were all very interesting to discuss about. Hope to read you soon. With all my respect to you all. Krys | ||
| landy (Landy_73) New Member Username: Landy_73 Post Number: 6 Registered: 03-2003 |
Krys, The ability to speak another language gives you the opportunity to appreciate both sides of the argumentation, which is a lot more than most people here could say for themselves. The discussion above, as well as all other precedent threads on similar subjects, is full of clichés and cheap argumentation. I understand that even G.W. Bush uses clichés such as "The French do not have a word for Entrepreneur"… Some of the members here are under the impression that France is still under the communist influence of the 70s. They are either misinformed, outdated or badly educated and seem to forget that it was the UK, and not France, who was the first country in Europe to implement a 3 days week for the blue collar workers and a 90% tax for the high earners in the middle of the 70s. Also, associating France and Germany with eastern European countries and using those to question the Franco-German alliance is like saying that the US and Mexico are equal economic partners and should have equal power in the relationship… Good luck, Landy | ||
| Lester Ray Gerber (Raygerber) New Member Username: Raygerber Post Number: 29 Registered: 09-2002 |
BW- Leslie's right on with the analysis of Chem/Bio-I'm glad someone answered for me since I stepped out of the forum yesterday. To detail my knowledge though I will say that six years as an intelligence officer, to include some schools from several agencies, has given me a professional knowledge on the matter of Chem/Bio weapons. What I said was a simple, unclassified, take on the effectiveness of Chemical and Biological weapons-with a focus on the likely agents to be employed by the Iraqis (Mustard, VX, anthrax)-in conjunction with the hostile environment of the desert, and the nature of most of our forces in theater (i.e. mechanized). I can provide a more detailed explanation with regard to each type of munition that takes into account enviromental factors, delivery means, and our ability to counter them but I think that would stretch the realm of what I can say freely and doesn't change the conclusion reached. Hope that helps explain why I spouted off-It's probably something I should have caveated prior to posting. regards Ray | ||
| Rans (Rans) Senior Member Username: Rans Post Number: 451 Registered: 08-2002 |
Landy: "..argumentation.."??? WTF? Is that Franglaise? Krys, the most amusing and ironic thing you have ever said was "..you are targets for your government propaganda..." I just had to laugh. the US government would like NOTHING better than to be able to manipulate the media, but the irony is that in reality the tail is wagging the dog! I think teh media manipulates our government more than the other way. Note the constant media claims that the US forces are undermanned and the government reponse that it is all hogwash!! To even speculate that we aer mere lackeys of our government propaganda is ridiculus. That is a much more likely situation in Europe than here. If you want to accuse of being lackeys of TV's situational comedies, then I would have a harder time arguing. Krys, are you in the least bit open to the possibility that you and France are just plain wrong? The fact that you don't seem to be open to it is in great part why we think you folks are arrogant and snotty. | ||
| Krys_P (Krys_french) New Member Username: Krys_french Post Number: 9 Registered: 04-2003 |
Rans, Intersting point of vue about your media being abble to manipulate your gov'. That is very probable too. I didn't see it this way. Interesting. I do need to think about it. To answer about your last questions, it depends to be wrong about what ? Could you be a bit more specific ? Krys | ||
| Rans (Rans) Senior Member Username: Rans Post Number: 454 Registered: 08-2002 |
The need to use force to resolve the danger of Saddam and his WMD due to the UN failure to resolve the issue thru inspections. | ||
| Krys_P (Krys_french) New Member Username: Krys_french Post Number: 10 Registered: 04-2003 |
Then, my answer won't change, because anyway it's too late because war started !!! I continue to be positively convinced that the use of force to disarm Saddam WAS not the ONLY possible way to reach this objective. It could have been done by choosing other solutions. BUT... Now, your turn to answer the same question. Are you open to the fact that the need to use force WAS NOT the only way to resolve the danger of Saddam and hiw WMD ? Thanks Rans. Krys | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 616 Registered: 09-2002 |
i guess, having come from Russia, i could be better off keeping my mouth shut. however - Krys, what is it with 1/3 of your fellow citizens wishing Saddam success in that war? That fell amazingly close to Le Pen's success not too long ago. Speaking of need to use force on Saddam... my only concern is that the country isn't ready for a change yet. Dictator states are amazingly stable politically, and only seem to change when the regimes run out of money. | ||
| Krys_P (Krys_french) New Member Username: Krys_french Post Number: 14 Registered: 04-2003 |
Peter, I Honestly don't know why these fuckers want Saddam to win this war (30% seems huge to me, i got to check that figure out tomorow) !!! I guess i'm going to take someones words up in this thread : just because of tension due to the crisis. I'm delighted to see that the diplomatic process is starting again.... We are going to enter a more constructive period i guess. Regards, Krys | ||
| Lester Ray Gerber (Raygerber) New Member Username: Raygerber Post Number: 31 Registered: 09-2002 |
Krys- I believe Peter's information comes from a reported poll taken by the French paper Le Monde (sp?) which reportedly, in the 2 Apr edition, said 1/3 of French citizens want Saddam to win, another 1/3 don't care who wins or loses. No word on the remaining 1/3 came through the media here, although the first 2/3's are damning enough from our perspective. I guess the good news is there is going to be about 1/3 of your country with hurt feelings in the near future. Just trying to keep the banter light! Ray | ||
| Mark & Bev Preston (Markp) Member Username: Markp Post Number: 185 Registered: 02-2002 |
Krys, I appreciate the view from your side. I hope France can turn things around but I'm concerned there is a hidden agenda with the UN veto. It was too strong and doomed the inspections. There may have been another way, but that road was closed by France. UN inspectors: German & French peace tactics were 'crazy' Die Zeit ^ | April 02, 2003 | Die Zeit http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/883980/posts "Could this war have been prevented? Yes, say some [inspectors]. But with a surprising argument: Germany, France and Russia made war unavoidable with their purported peace politics. Gerhard Schroeder's categorical 'no' to military deployment was simply "crazy." "We might have been able to fulfill our mandate," one hears in the hotel lobby." I thought the 35 hour work week was just implemented 2 years ago as a way of increasing employment? It applies to companies with more than 20 employees. If your working 50 hour weeks you must work for a small company. The success of this government social engineering will be interesting. As for communist influence, I wasn't clear enough. It's the labor unions that are affliated with communist organizations. The current government is more capitalist, hence my statement that Chirac does want to make changes. I understand there is a major strike in France on-going in the public sector. It is unrest like this and unemployment that will bring them back into power. Add a little nationalism and chaos reigns. Regards, Mark | ||
| Rans (Rans) Senior Member Username: Rans Post Number: 456 Registered: 08-2002 |
Krys, Yes I am open to the possibility that diplomacy MIGHT have resulted in the desired affect. I did not want war, I did not want a single American life wasted because of that fool of a madman. On the other hand I would not have wanted another massive terrorist attack to have killed more Americans because the terrorists/hussein thought that the USA was soft and an easy target. I also did not want to see more innoccent Iraqi people killed either in war or by the hand of idiot hussein or his sons. I wonder if we could ever know how many thousands of innocents he murdered over the past 20 years? Regardless of what I wished for, our country (the USA) made a decision to do what they felt was in the best interest of all except Saddam Hussein and countries (read France and others here) that supported his dictatorship. And I support my country and what it really represents which is the freedom for us to have this discussion. | ||
| BW (Bwallace35) Member Username: Bwallace35 Post Number: 54 Registered: 07-2002 |
Lester, Ever been out to Huachuca? | ||
| Lester Ray Gerber (Raygerber) New Member Username: Raygerber Post Number: 32 Registered: 09-2002 |
BW- I did my initial training there going through the Army MIOBC school, right after I finished Infantry Officer's Course. I loved it out there, although I had a Tacoma at the time (shhhhhhh) Your profile has a nice shot of the mountains, anywhere I might be familiar with? regards RAy | ||
| BW (Bwallace35) Member Username: Bwallace35 Post Number: 56 Registered: 07-2002 |
That's Garden canyon. I love it here. I'll be leaving soon. I am going to miss this place. You wouldn't happen to have access to intel link right now would you? BW | ||
| Mtb (Mtb) New Member Username: Mtb Post Number: 15 Registered: 02-2003 |
Krys I am sorry but I can not see how Diplomacy would work with Saddam. He has had plenty of time before the war to comply and he has had offers from other countries to come there. And I am sure France and Russia even tried to talk some sence to Saddam. And now with the US & UK military at his back door I still don't see the White Flag from Saddam. So I am intrested in how you think Diplomacy would have worked. He has had 12 years to comply with the UN and he threw out the insectors in 98. And even when the inspections where going on before this war he would not comply, By giving up his Chem/Bio weapons. And we all know he has them. What we are dealing with is a psychopath and there is no way he was going to give in to anyone telling him what to do. It is like a hostage situation the police can only negotiate for so long, and sometimes they need to send in the Tactical Teams to put an end to it all. Now with France, Russia & Germany all three counties could have supported this action without real support, But no. is that because all three have alot to lose($$$$) if Saddam is thrown out of Iraq it sure looks that way. But in the long run your country will lose more than contracts from Saddam. Your country will see a hit in tourism and any products you export.(Nothing like a nice bottle of French wine with Brie and crackers. ) No more I will settle with Wisconsin cheddar and California wine. All they needed to say was " We wish more time would be taken to let inspections work, But it is obvious that Saddam does not want to fully comply with UN demands of turning over all WMD. Giving us no choice and voting Yes on military action." I only see US & UK troops fighting so there are other ways to silently support like other countries are doing. By not doing that your government hurt your economy far worse that the 4 Billion that Iraq owes you. When this is all done I feel having Saddam off our list of leaders to worry about your kids will have a much safer world to be in. You have a safe one Krys Michael | ||
| Krys_P (Krys_french) New Member Username: Krys_french Post Number: 16 Registered: 04-2003 |
Peter and Ray, I got the article about the study made at the en of march. Here are the figures. * 78% french disagree with war, 17% do agree, and 5% didn't answer. * 65% are convinced that war responsability is american, 12% think it's Irak's. * During the conflict : 34% feel more on US's side, 25% feel on Iraq's side, 31% for none of them, and 10% didn't answer. * 53% want US's victory, 33% want irak's. Voila. Taken from Le Monde your spelling was correct. Mark, maybe (and i insist on my maybe) if countries that said "no to force" didn't say so, that the Iraq government would have been more cooperative. Now my question is : If France, Germany etc. said "ok for a military intervention", don't you think that then, war was unavoidable ??? I do. So in both cases, war was the result ! Bad thing for diplomacy ! Talking about 35 hours week. Well, the law as been voted, but companies are breaking it as often as they can. Very few people are benefiting of this law (for my self, as an executive i gained 12 additionnal days off, but the 35 hours think didn't result in any hiring !!!). In fact, some companies are even paying tickets because they didn't implement the 35 hours for their labout force. It's cheaper than to hire people ! We do have our own malfunctionment here i tell you ! For strikes in france : Yes ! We are strikes specialists ! Their a lot to do here on the social side, talking about public sector, optimization on the use of the State money etc. etc. Rans, well thanks for your post. You can now just imagine you had several choices (and to simplify them war/no war), so now, if you are not stupid, intolerant and arrogant (and i think you are none of them), then you should be able to understand and respect that some other people that can have a different perpective on the conflict, but still share the same objective, think with their own heart and soul that their could have been another way to solve the problem. Well, i am, and 78% french, are, in the latter side. 17% french think the same as you do... But you were already convinced that we could agree to disagree !!! I just don't see any reasons why we should be "ennemies"... Well i wish all of you a very nice week-end, hope to read you on monday. And once again, if one of you wish to come and visit France (want to enjoy your time, understand more about our country, it's good things, and thing to work on), well you are welcome just drop me a note ! With all my respect, Krys | ||
| landy (Landy_73) New Member Username: Landy_73 Post Number: 7 Registered: 03-2003 |
Rans, All my apologies for not getting back any earlier; work is rather busy at the moment. As for your comment about my wording, I do not know about "Franglaise", but argumentation certainly is not Franglais. According the Collins dictionary, argumentation means: a) the process of reasoning methodically b) argument; debate Am I to understand that such a word is not part of the American language. After all, the Collins dictionary only applies to English, as spoken here in the UK. Landy | ||
| Sylvain Gluckmann (Sylvain) New Member Username: Sylvain Post Number: 1 Registered: 04-2003 |
We should have agreed on the rules in the first place Good morning to you all. As this is my first post on your forum, let me introduce myself first: I'm from Belgium (150 km from Brussels, wich is almost as far as you can be and still be living in the country). I'm a french speaking belgian, as opposed to dutch or german speaking, altough I'm quite close to the german speaking bits of the territory. I do put up a Land Rover event every last week-end of july with a couple of friends over here. We call this 4 days week end of Land Rover fun "le Goodwill", wich says a lot about the spirit... I've never met Krys, but we post on the same french forum (www.landmania.com). That's where I read about this discussion. After reading the posts, I thought I might try to give my humble opinion about this fight you're fighting. I'll start by paying respect to the forces over there, especially to the 101st airborne, whose brave men freed our village during the Battle of the Bulge. Four of them died because of a sabotaged artillery piece. The people here built a humble memorial (there were only a dozen poor houses at the time) on what has become a part of the american soil. I still give them a wave every time I pass by. As for the Iraqi Freedom operation... First, I think it is as just a war as the one we all (NATO+) fought in Kosovo. All should be reminded that there wasn't UN backing for that one either, and that we (France, Belgium, Germany...) were enough convinced at the time not to wait for it. I think dictators should be dealt with in the most firm way available, especially the ones with hugely destructive power at their disposal. Still, I think we should have talked about the rules beforehand. Maybe petrol was in some american's leaders' minds. Maybe industrial contracts were in the minds of some french officials, maybe even a Nobel Prize ;-)... Maybe the Germans didn't want their "pesticide" factories exposed all over Iraq... Maybe. But why did the Belgian Gvt oppose this war so hard? In my humble opinion, it's because the argumentation was presented the wrong way round. We should have talked first about a much vaster plan about world security, and the threat of rogue regimes, how we identify them, on what criteria; then how we deal with them, first by diplomatical then military force when necessary... Saddams should not be allowed to exist. Not because they are a threat to us. Not because they get hold of mass destruction weapons. But because it is wrong to let evil rule. On that I think we all agree. Let's not bring any of them to power anymore, and decide together how we are to deal with the ones there is left. Let's ask our respective Gvts to speak openly about this. Then, if necessary, we shal all fight the right fights for reasons that'll fell right to everybody. PS: please feel free to correct my english, it's the only way for me to learn. | ||
| Rans (Rans) Senior Member Username: Rans Post Number: 460 Registered: 08-2002 |
I stand corrected Landy, it is also defined in the American Heritage Dictionary as "1.The presentation and elaboration of an argument. 2. Deductive reasoning in debate." I should've checked the dictionary first before jumping you about it. For what it's worth, I've never heard the word used in my almost 50 years, and that includes a 4 year stint in an English "public" school. Franglaise, I almost forgot that it has been outlawed in France for at least the past 10-15 years, is the French absorbtion of English words into their language. | ||
| Rans (Rans) Senior Member Username: Rans Post Number: 461 Registered: 08-2002 |
Ah Sylvain! une Belgique! I have fond memories of my years in Belgium, made many friends there, both Flems and Walloons. Spent MANY weekends camping and kayaking in the Ardennes near Dinant. I've seen MANY of the monuments the Belgian people have erected in thanks to the 101st Airborne Div after the battle of the Bulge. A wonderful country and wonderful people who to this day still appreciate the sacrifice of America in WWII. If only the French could learn from you! You deserve credit for writing perhaps the most eloquent statement of all of us in this discussion, and I applaud you for it. In hindsight, I think we will all be able to come up with improvements to the entire method of removing Saddam. Thanks for your comments! I hope one day to enjoy "le Goodwill" on a visit to your country. I wish you well! | ||
| M. K. Watson (Lrover94) Senior Member Username: Lrover94 Post Number: 730 Registered: 02-2002 |
Very good Sylvain.... lets not forget that we are told and i believe that we are their not for us, nato, the un french, german or whoever, we have gone in to free and oppressed people from a cruel devil, the by product of the liberation is a more secure world! we as common folk don't know all what is learned and discussed behind the doors in Washington, i believe, sometimes that is good, so in that thought we should be careful on how we protest the actions of our (US) goverment, they just might know more about something than we do. imho mike w | ||
| Lester Ray Gerber (Raygerber) New Member Username: Raygerber Post Number: 33 Registered: 09-2002 |
Sylvain-excellent post, and once again another European showing a good grasp of the English lanuage (far better than most Americans in fact) I think most Americans had long since made the leap in logic you prescribe, i.e. we should have a plan to deal with rogue regimes, evil dictators etc. One thing that is fundamentally American is the mitigation of the argument by saying "we supported Saddam in the 80's" or "what about North Korea, Iran, Syria, etc..." doesn't eliminate the need in our mind to deal with the problem at hand. I think you Kosovo example illustrates why our paitience with this scenario ended after 12 years of relative inaction on the part of the UN (the only forum that can discuss what you are asking for). The UN never would have done something about Kosovo, just like it ignores many other tragedies (Rwanda) b/c the cost of action is too much for many to stomach. The coming weeks will be very interesting to see how the cards fall once the conflict is over and rebuilding begins. Krys-Thank you for pulling the correct article and posting the results-it's less inflamatory than I had expected. BW-I'm up on both "higher" channels, my work email is lester.gerber@navy.mil, add the proper caveat and you can hit me there, or just hit me unclass and we can go from there. I'm really upset the USMC stopped sending a lot of people to the courses out there, I would have killed to be a student or an instructor out there. regards Ray | ||
| Krys_P (Krys_french) New Member Username: Krys_french Post Number: 17 Registered: 04-2003 |
Hi all, Thanks for your post Sylvain. I find it interesting that european with different opinions can express them selves and meet here. Have a good week-end. Krys | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 626 Registered: 09-2002 |
thumbs up, Sylvain! |
