Jeep vs. Land Rover

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Author Message   Brad Russell (Bradnc) Posted on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 08:05 pm:    Well all my high school buddies all say that their Wranglers and Grand Cherokees are by far superior off road to my D1. I know this will probably start a heated, one-sided debate, but what are the real reasons why one is better than the other? This is considering that the two are equal in mods...say a modest lift and tires. What are the facts that will prove them wrong?   Anonymous Posted on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 08:42 pm:    The driver   Craig M. Highland (Shortbus) Posted on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 09:11 pm:    Sounds like somebody needs to put down the books and go wheelin'. There are no facts that will prove them wrong. Too many variables to consider when on the trail to make that sort of a call. Learn to become an expert at rolling your eyes, and smirking (sp?) Craig   ErikS Posted on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 09:33 pm:    Just out of curiosity, what is their reasoning that their vehicles are superior to the disco?   Milan Posted on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 09:49 pm:    The guys with Jeeps are fooling themselves. I say the Discos are better (in either stock form or if equally modified) than Cherokees or Wrangler YJs any day. They're about on par with TJs where the TJs benefit from smaller wheel base and better approach and departure angles and the Discos benefit from more heft (some times) and longer wheel base (on hill climbs). Defenders are better than TJ's out of the box but the differences get blurred when modified. I look at the differences not in wheeling capability but as what you get for your money - with LR you get full floating axles with disc brakes, 16" rims and on the D90, room to run 32-33" tire with no mods. With TJ's you also get solid axles where the rear axleshafts are much stronger than LR axleshafts and the front u-joints are stronger than the LR CVs. But no discs on the rear, and other weak links that should be upgraded. On both TJs and D1s you get circa 29" tires stock which are quite a bit smaller than stock tires on a NAS D90. LR equals aluminum body and a light-weight V8. On the TJ you get galvanized steel body and a solid, torquey I-6 which seems peppier than the LR V8 and sucks less gas. The Grand Cherokees have nice V8s but that's about it. On TJs you also get thicker but smaller (in cross-section) frame - but it's one strong frame to which you can just bolt stuff on. On the LR frame, you better have some reinforcments and it dents easier. On the Cherokees you get no frame at all. The Jeep electronics seem less susceptable to water damage than the LR's but do not take to too much water well either, especially the TPS. You can get more aftermarket parts for your Jeep. TJs are also cheaper than both D90 or Disco. Although a good used Disco can be had for almost the same money as a really good but still used TJ. Biggest differences in off-road abilities I have seen so far, regardles of marque, are made by the drivers.   Neal Glessner (Nealg) Posted on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 10:22 pm:    You can bicker all day or feed them facts: (info based from manufaturer's published data on Disco1 and the current and past Grd Cherokees) Here are some of the most important facts for (stock) off road-ability: MID GROUND CLEARANCE Discovery: 8.1 INCHES Grd Cherokee: 7.7- CROSS COUNTRY 8.3 APROACH ANGLE Discovery: 39 degrees Grd Cherokee: 37 DEPARTURE ANGLE Discovery: 29 degrees Grd Cherokee: 29 RAMP BREAK OVER ANGLE: Discovery: 29 DEGREES Grd Cherokee: 21-22 MAX PAYLOAD Discovery: 1554LBS Grd Cherokee: 1150 other facts: MAX TOWING Discovery: 7700LBS Grd Cherokee: 6700LS SEATING CAPACITY Discovery: 7 Grd Cherokee: 5 Should I continue?   niall forbes (Forbesn) Posted on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 10:23 pm:    Can't really say it any better than Milan. For all the talk on the Rover lists, Jeeps are actually pretty good vehicles. Our club has an annual run with the local Jeep club. They're great guys and the trucks are pretty similar. I think a GC would be less durable off-road though. Other than that, they're probably on par with each other. Driver is definitely 75% of the equation. Niall Forbes 66 IIa 88SW - The Red Zit <--For Sale http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/forbes/forsale.htm   Phillip Perkinson (R0ver4x4) Posted on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 10:26 pm:    you hit the g-spot   Brad Russell (Bradnc) Posted on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 11:31 pm:    Yea, i don't deny at all that jeeps are sub-par in any way off road, my friends just say that Land Rovers suck off road because they are rich bastard SUV's built purely for luxury. It's probably the fact that you actually see modified Jeeps on the road, and not modified Rovers...although what is it....85% of Rover owners have taken their car off road compared to like 5% of Jeep owners? I was wheeling one time and we went up a tough hill climb laiden with rocks and boulders, and my friends' TJ w/ 2 in. lift and 31's and CJ w/ 3 in lift and 33's both had an extremely difficult time, taking about 6 attempts each, while i drove right up it w/ totally stock 97 D1... Is the CDL an advantage over Jeeps, or are they equal because they don't have full time 4wd and the transfer case is locked when they're in 4wd?   Brad Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 12:10 am:    I go fourwheeling with my friends and they all own jeeps and four runners and the fourrunner is lifted like six inches with 33 in. tires and my Disco can ramp higher then that and also as much as the jeeps with 3 in. lifts. They all think that my Disco is good, but doesn't compare to there jeeps even when I was showing them up pretty much. I can go threw as much as they can with michelin Cross terrains on my disco. They believe though that with a disco modified they are unstopable.   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 01:22 am:    i still think a suzuki samurai will kick jeep's and disco's ass.   Craig M. Highland (Shortbus) Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 01:26 am:    Yes Ho.. I want a Zuker project pretty bad.. Randy Ellis has some CRAZY Zuk's www.randyellisdesign.com Craig   Brad Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 01:32 am:    A suzuki will definitly kick a discos ass they go threw anything. My friend has one and we take it out into muddy fields and it is stock and it is in really deep mud and just flies threw it with. And they are real easy to fix up.   Robert Mann (Oldscout) Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 01:33 am:    Ho's right! http://www.sonic.net/jkwaters/images/jasoncrear.jpg http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=424122 http://www.sonic.net/jkwaters/images/Victor/MVC-028S.JPG http://www.sonic.net/jkwaters/images/Samurai/6253.jpg http://www.sonic.net/jkwaters/images/Samurai/snipe%201.jpg http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=442268 saved the best one for last!   Craig M. Highland (Shortbus) Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 01:34 am:    Last link is dead Robert- Craig   Robert Mann (Oldscout) Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 01:53 am:    Thanks Craig I'll see if it works here.   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 01:54 am:    LOL man, those are some sick zuks. you don't even need that kind of zuk to kick some ass. a stocker will do some serious damage. and if you think i am bullshitting here, you need some big ugly humbling experience.   Craig M. Highland (Shortbus) Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 02:04 am:    I think that kid in the background is running away scared! LOL Craig   Craig Kobayashi (Koby) Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 02:04 am:    I know! I used to drive a Vitara (Sidekick) and a friend of mine had a Sammy The Sammy was bad-ass off-road. Even when it was on its side, all it took was three guys and we were back on our way. The Sidekick was not as capable, but much more so than most will be willing to accept. Were it not for their woefully underpowered motors (~65 HP in the Sammy, ~90 hp in the Vitara), I think they'd be more popular. That and the IFS front of the Vitara made it difficult to lift. That didn't stop me from putting a 2" OME lift on my Vitara! I plan on buying a Sammy and make a trail truck out of it. The Sammy was the truck that got me hooked on 4-wheeling!   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 02:34 am:    now, aside from who kicks whose ass... you gotta be stylin!!! and i dont' think you be stylin on a zuk or a jeep.   Paul D. Morgan (V22guy) Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 08:01 am:    It's all about chicks!!!   Mel A. Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 08:46 am:    Ah...the classic Jeep vs. Land Rover argument in high-school. The way I see it is this. A stock Disco is vastly more capable than a stock Cherokee, Liberty and most Wrangler's (actually all except the Rubicon). The Grand Cherokee is better in the mud and in the snow. But the Disco is geared towards climbing stuff and slow trail running. I, being a 17 year old in high-school, get a lot of shit for driving a "soccer mom's car." But it all stops when you take them hill climbing and trail running. Most of the people at my school drive Jeep's for looks. They put like a 4-inch lift and stuff 33 inch BFG AT's and NEVER take it off-road. They make up some bullshit excuse like their mom's will get mad if there is one spec of dirt on the garage floor. Mel A. p.s. Don't ever tell them that you have a DL or a TT, it just makes the Disco more stealth   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 08:58 am:    I group the Sammi's in with the jeeps. As far as the Land Rover compared to the rest ? The Rover is for working the others are for playing.... Kyle   Milan Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 10:01 am:    "A stock Disco is vastly more capable than a stock Cherokee, Liberty and most Wrangler's (actually all except the Rubicon). " I assume you think the Rubicon is better because of its dual lockers. Well even a regular Wrangler can come with a limited slip rear and that will beat the Disco. The GC's gerotors will be better too, so we have to compare apples to apples. And stock, open diffed trucks are almost identical. No "vast" differences.   John Lee Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 11:16 am:    Here's your beloved and much touted Disco getting strapped out by a Sammy at the CORVA Poker Run: http://www.expeditionexchange.com/corva2002/DSC00798.jpg About 100 people were watching too. This Disco caused such a backlog on the trails that everybody and his brother got out to watch.   niall forbes (Forbesn) Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 11:55 am:    Damn that green Disco looks sweet.   Ho Chung (Ho) Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 12:02 pm:    more of that green disco. http://www.expeditionexchange.com/km/101-0153_IMG.jpg   John Lee Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 12:22 pm:    That's Kristian Meyers' truck. I got serious wood for that Disco. Nice amount of lift, 235/85's, NATO wheels, Detroit in the rear with HD halfshafts, nice roof rack, the Ho Chung antenna mount, Mantec snorkel. All solid instead of sexy. And I love that truck for what it doesn't have as much as what it has. No Junk Yard Dog action. No Hunk of Shit action. No month-old mud on it to try to look cool. No Truckasaurus lift or tires. No sticker mess looking like someone vomited a mess of stickers on the windows. No wannabe Camel Trophy limb risers. No wannabe Land Rover Special Vehicle decals. No bullshit skid plates. No sex toys. No clunking spring cone suspension. "Everything you need and nothing you don't" aptly describes that truck. I totally dig it.   RVR OVR (Tom) Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 12:51 pm:    Isn't the snorkel a sex toy?   John Lee Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 12:54 pm:    Not if you drive in dusty conditions.   Willie Joubert (Willie) Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 01:58 pm:    I have a video (made in South Africa) where the new GC (3.1L diesel), ML 270 (180hp diesel) and the S2 Disco Td5 are compared offroad, they both do well (The ML loses), except the D2 has a way more friendly impact on the environment. On a serious uphill the D2 does visibly better. Look at the bigger picture, would you take that Zuk and go on expedition 6000miles through Africa???no not even with a new Jeep would I attempt that. The reason is easy, Jeeps break.....known fact. When travelling in servere conditions through Africa jeeps do not last and will almost guaranteed break down at some stage. Believe me, been there done that, I do not allow Jeeps on any of my trips..... Been all over and each time I have a Jeep in line we have a breakdown of some sorts. I have been travelling with my 84 Rangie (3.5L), Disco 1 Tdi200, Defender Tdi300 and 96 D1 V8. Never had any breakdown..... When away from home there is one factor that makes a vehicle a good offroader...reliability.   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 03:29 pm:    snorkle is always sexy, don't even argue... rd   Glenn Guinto (Glenn) Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 03:38 pm:    Rob, What makes it sexy, is it the long hard shaft or the thickness of the tubing? ROTFLMAO!!! -glenn   Rob Davison (Pokerob) Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 03:42 pm:    it's the way it curls at the end...   Mel A. Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 04:16 pm:    Milan, The Rubicon is arguably the most capable SUV in the American market today. It has a lot more than just front and rear lockers. It has a 4:1 low-range, and 31” Goodyear Wrangler MT/R tires just to name a few. A stock TJ is not all that capable off-road. In reality, a Chevy Tracker will do whatever it will do off-road. Its limited slip rear diff is not all that powerful either. An Xterra has a LSD, so why isn't that more capable than a Disco? The Disco flexes better, has a lower low-range and is stronger. I drove a friends stock TJ, and I was not impressed. The thing felt cheap, I felt like I could rip pieces off the car with my bare hands. I didn't drive it off-road, but I am sure my Disco will do whatever it can with less trouble. I think that the GC is more capable than a Wrangler (not the Rubicon though). I’m not sure about the Disco going head-to-head with a GC. I think that will be to close to call.   Kyle Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 04:17 pm:    Willie , thats why I said the the Jeeps and the sammis were just for play. Not for work.... Kyle   Milan Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 05:27 pm:    "The Rubicon is arguably the most capable SUV in the American market today. It has a lot more than just front and rear lockers. It has a 4:1 low-range, and 31” Goodyear Wrangler MT/R tires just to name a few." I know what it has. It also has some rocker panel protection and a D44 front. I do like it but it will still have some weak links. But you're right in stock form it will soon be the only real SUV-sized 4x4 available. "A stock TJ is not all that capable off-road." This is where you're wrong, my friend. It does off-road just as well as anything even if you keep the front sway bar connected. However, it was meant to be disconnected as the stock links won't last if you wheel it connected a lot. "In reality, a Chevy Tracker will do whatever it will do off-road. Its limited slip rear diff is not all that powerful either. An Xterra has a LSD, so why isn't that more capable than a Disco? " I disagree. Tracker won't do what a TJ can do. Just like an X-Terra won't do what a Disco will. Why not? Both TJ and Disco have more flex. And the LSD on the Jeeps is crap but is good for 20K miles and it is better than an open diff any day. "The Disco flexes better, has a lower low-range and is stronger. I drove a friends stock TJ, and I was not impressed. The thing felt cheap, I felt like I could rip pieces off the car with my bare hands. I didn't drive it off-road, but I am sure my Disco will do whatever it can with less trouble." The Disco flexes about the same as a TJ and the overall ratio is about the same. Only an idiot would put an underdriven output gear in t-case and higher gears in the pumpkins. Guess which vehicle has both? The rest very much depends on each vehicle. So far my TJ proved to be way more solid than the Disco. The cheap dash is curling, the seat switch broke the first day I sat down (it's in a supid place and made of cheap plastic - speaking of cheap plastic, the Disco seems to have more of it), not to mention numerous electrical gremlins that have never been resolved. The nice thing about the TJ is less crap inside and out. Less body work to worry about and on top it does not stick out. You still have to pick good lines, but believe me there are fewer things to get broken or to get hung up on on the TJ. "I think that the GC is more capable than a Wrangler (not the Rubicon though). I’m not sure about the Disco going head-to-head with a GC. I think that will be to close to call. " I disagree again. I think the TJ is much more solid than GC but not as luxurious. The GC can wheel but the TJ can wheel better. The Disco on the other hand is better than the GC and that's why it's a close call between it and the TJ. However both are quite different and that's why one should really compare the TJ to the D90 and the Disco to the GC. Then I'm sure there would be more "victories" for LR if you compare identical equipment. As to the Jeeps always breaking down and not being able to do long trips, well I think that would amount to maintenance, although I will agree that some vehicles take to no maintenance better than others. Is Disco one of them? I don't know. I heard otherwise and I believe all vehicles are better if regularily maintained. Kyle believes in working truck being defined as being able to carry thousands of pounds of stuff over long distances without breaking. Fine. I believe if I can take what I need in my Jeep and cover the same distance without breaking, I also have a working truck. The reason the Disco or D90 seem to make better working trucks out of the box is simple, they can carry more stuff and for the stock-sized tires they have strong running gear (namely t-case and axles). I now have gear driven t-case and full floating axles on my TJ and if I were to run 32's I'm sure I'd get the same reliability out of my running gear as the Disco/D90. Just not as much room. And even if I did not have those axles, I'm sure it would do fine with 32's or smaller tires if it was in good shape before the trip. By upgrading the axles I can run 35's now but I would not do that on a Disco axles even if they were upgraded. Not for a long trip anyway. Hehehe, why do I always defend Jeeps before LR fans and vice versa? Isn't it futile? Why do I love both so much?   Brad Russell (Bradnc) Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 05:40 pm:    I have gone wheeling with a few friends in stock TJ's with my stock D1, and it was a rather decisive and impressive victory for land rover...They had much more trouble on most obstacles and never had it easier than I did. I began to lose them in the rear view mirror several times and i am by no means a fast or crazy driver (even though i'm 17, hard to believe, huh?). I think you have to modify a Jeep a good bit with tires, suspension, etc. to be the same as a disco...   niall forbes (Forbesn) Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 07:07 pm:    I find it hard to believe that a stock Disco is so much more capable off road than a stock TJ. I've seen and driven both in action and they both leave you wanting more in stock form. They are both quite capable though. I think with the same driver driving both, it would be a pretty even match.   RVR OVR (Tom) Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 08:00 pm:    Watch the Moab video. Stock jeep Wrangler vs. Modified Landrovers. I thought I was watching a frickin' Jeep commercial. Maybe not as reliable but as capable as climbing over and through the stuff. For the whole "expedition" thing the LR seems to have the edge out of the box. However, in America, is there really any such thing as an "expedition"? Tom   Anonymous Posted on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 01:22 am:    Land Rover as capable as a TJ? This is a comical thread really it is. Lets compare apples to apples: Your 2002 Disco costs what 35K compared to the TJ's 21K? Take that 14K difference and drop a 5 inch lift, 35's, lockers, winch etc etc etc and let me tell you your disco is not even close anymore, they may have been close stock but comon guys the disco is WAY more expensive. Need I mention your Disco parts cost a fortune, when you can find them at all - you want to find parts, aftermarket or stock for a Jeep you can find them anywhere. Take a trip to Moab, Utah sometime and see what vehicles are taking the extreme trails - Jeeps, Zuk's, Toys, sorry your Rovers aren't going where the big boys play.   Craig M. Highland (Shortbus) Posted on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 02:08 am:    Hey Anon- That's a bone-stock Rover just ahead of that built Jeep. http://www.extremecj.com/ejs2002/DBXJ.jpg Honestly, I don't think that the whole "jeep vs. rover" thing makes any sense. Anyone who thinks one is better than the other, obviously doesn't spend much time on the trail. Ever see the 24 hours at the Hammers article? Some of the gnarliest custom rigs in the country, and a couple of mildly built Rovers. They are built for different purposes in mind. OF Course, if you want to build an dedicated crawling rig on a budget, A Rover is not the smartest place to start. Most of us drive these damn things because we would like something a little different. I don't think one is better than the other, but see you at the dump-bump!! (It's a wheelbase thing, you wouldn't understand)   MTB Posted on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 03:03 am:    Come on Anon, When you find a Jeep that is built the same as a Rover then compare. I was never in a Jeep the was as solid as a Rover(Bone Stock) Hell you probably compare Chevy cars to BMW & MB. As for parts never had a problem finding them. We may not be able to go down to Billy Bob's Parts Shack but we can find them. As for Running with the Big Boys. Hell those Bastards Never have any Grey Pupon so why do we want to run with them. Now I only have a H.S education But if you take how many jeeps, Toys and what ever that were sold and then take how many Rovers sold I think you would see less Rovers at Moab. ???? maybe it's me. Man I was bored until I read your post. Come back soon I need some humor. Michael B   Andy Posted on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 12:26 pm:    I went through all of this before I bought my disco. I have friends in all sorts of modified and unmodified 4x4's. The main thing I got out of them before buying my disco was that no matter what you wheel with its the driver that makes the vehicle. I would never buy a 35k or 21k vehicle to go serious wheeling with, I don't have that kind of money to damage on a trail. True, you can get Jeep parts for mods cheaper and easier, but if you really want to do a jeep up right most of the parts are about equal to good disco parts in cost. A lot of jeep friends say that a lot of the jeep parts available are for show. It seems to me most disco parts aren't expensive as much as there aren't as many cheap parts availible for them. If you try to scale the parts between the two, I would hope disco parts are more expensive considering disco's weight more and need heavier parts. I think you need to compare off road vehicles that have full frames to disco's so TJ's are more logical. I've seem cherokees and Grands that you can't close or open doors on when they are offroad. Thats one of the reasons I picked the disco. Also it is true, there is not really a need for expedition vehicles in the US. But for me, or anyone getting a true off road vehicle should do, I looked at my needs. I needed a vehicle to carry lots of stuff. I use my disco as a daily driver, so I haul climbing, hiking, biking, kayaks and other stuff and people. I found no better chose than the disco, TJ's are to small for me, plus I live in Utah and regularly drive 3 plus hours with four people and 4 kayaks and gear. If you ever have driven that far in a TJ or D90 you won't be comfortable. I've done it and didn't like it. The only big thing I don't like about the disco is that most owners seem to be shotty. No one ever waves to me, I think that the up scale elite attitude disco owners seem to have as a whole is what gives fuel to this whole debate. Jeepers have the idea that LR's are soccer mom vehiles because as a whole they are. I see a shit load of disco's and D90's in Salt Lake City where I live. Almost all seem to look like they never have been offroad. I have even seen some nice modified ones that look like they go off road. I wave at all of them and get no reaction, or they quickly look away. As a group, other than this web site, LR owners seem a little arrogant, I think that is the fuel for the JP LR debate my 2 cents Andy 95 d1 slc ut   Jeremy A. (Jmansphc) Posted on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 12:36 pm:    I have only seen a few Disco's that have been modified to go off road. I live in Utah too and it's hard to find a Disco that's not driven by a soccer mom. Jeep, Toyota, Subaru Forrester, Disco...who cares. I go off-roading to have fun.... : )   Andy Posted on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 12:49 pm:    Oh my heck yes, I surly agree. (that was native utahn language for I agree) Just go have fun off road and tread lightly. andy 95 d1 slc ut   Kyle Posted on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 12:51 pm:    Tom is absolutely right about what a TJ can do. I have been out with many of them and they always hand the Disco its ass in a hat. Although , I have been there with them while they were broke as well. THey are for play. You cant carry a damn think bigger then a 6 pack in there and even if you could the driveline wouldnt hold up to the extra wieght. As far as "Expeditions" Tom , yeah , there is such a thing , you just aint running them. And you certainly wont find them at the fun park at the bad lands... In some play place like that a TJ is a better truck , or a Sammi or some shit like that. Kyle   RVR OVR (Tom) Posted on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 01:38 pm:    the fun park in the badlands. you make it sould so adolecent. i like that! i still think the only "expeditions" i can find in the US have three rows of seating and are overpriced. he he. tom   Kyle Posted on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 04:08 pm:    Maybe you should come for a drive sometime then. Just leave that tow vehicle and trailer at home... And I refrained from likening it to chucky cheese didnt I ? Kyle   RVR OVR (Tom) Posted on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 04:11 pm:    No way. The Tahoe will come along. I can surf discoweb and watch movies while we are on the road. Seriously, though. I haven't towed the Disco anywhere yet. I had that in mind when I bought the Tahoe, but there has been little reason to. Tom   Kyle Posted on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 04:14 pm:    We will have to get a run into Canada together this summer and see how your outlook on "Expedition" changes..... Kyle   RVR OVR (Tom) Posted on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 04:23 pm:    Canada. That sounds like a plan. OK, I will broaden my horizons to include all of North America, not just the US. There are then, indeed, expeditions to be had nearby. You don't mind if I tow to the border, do you??? Tom   ravensjk Posted on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 04:43 pm:    As for most Discos not being driven off-road... That is an accurate statement for the SUV market in general. Don't tell me when you drive down the road every Grand Cherokee, 4-Runner, Explorer, etc... that you see is dirty from all the trail rides it has seen recently. The fact is most people do not drive off-road, however they still like the security, passenger and cargo space that SUVs provide. Even Wranglers, that don't appeal as much to the soccer Moms, still appeal to college kids and anyone looking for an affordable, fun convertible. Actually, now that I think about it, I see more Wranglers than Discos every day that I am sure don't see any off-road action. This is fine. No matter what the vehicle, they are all "multi-purpose". And putting someone down for driving a vehicle that they enjoy whether they only use it to get to work or they off-road regularly is juvenile. Now long, heated discussions with your buddies over whose truck is best is another matter altogether... At that point you are arguing just to win, doesn't matter if you drive a POS jason   Anonymous Posted on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 10:09 pm:    If you want a out of the box 4x4 absolutely nothing will beat a Mercedes Benz Unimog. Not a Disco, Defender, no Jeep ever made, not even a Hummer. A 1960's vintage MB Unimog 404 is absolutely unstoppable. For $8,000 bucks you get fron and rear lockers, an unbelieveable amount of clearance, a superb suspension and gearing that will let you crawl through anything. The only drawback is the 90 horse six is a bit anemic on the highway and a top speed of 50 mph (reached in roughly 1 minute 20 seconds) makes this rig less useful as a daily driver. This engine has no shortcomings off-road in the hands of even a novice driver. Now if we could only get new ones in the states with diesels and decent amenities (I do like my comfort) I may just sell a kidney and get one. Damn the crash and emissions regulations!!   Leif R. (Leif) Posted on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 10:21 pm:    http://www.unimogwherehaus.com/index.html They have some for sale that are modified for better highway driving.   Bryan Posted on Saturday, April 06, 2002 - 08:32 pm:    Damn you guys! Why did you have to introduce me to the Unimog! My wife and neighbors are going to kill me when they see one of those ugly things in my driveway!!!!!!!!!!