| Author | Message | ||
     Kevin Bridges (Craniac) Member Username: Craniac Post Number: 78 Registered: 02-2003 |
I have recently had a discussion with a fellow H2 owner regarding this issue. In the 4 high unlocked position I jacked up one front tire and tried to move the truck, You could hear a series of clicking (TC trying) but the truck would not move. I then tried this on a rear tire with the same results. After locking the transfer 4 Hi lock it spins one front and one back. OK I expected as much. My question is this. Since the Hummer and the LR share the same traction control system (imagine that Ford and Chevy together at last haha) does this wash with any of your experiences? He claims.......it works, it works,it works. Maybe mines broke but I dont think so The Hummer comes stock with an E-locker in the rear but CLAIMS it can climb a 10 degree incline with only one wheel on the ground. This has not been my experience, maybe if the wheel on the ground was a rear tire and the locker was engaged. I would like to hear from someone who has actually jacked up a wheel and tried this experiment with a RR or LR. Dont get me wrong, I love my Hummer but imagine that, I think they may have fudged a little on the brochure. TC kinda seems stupid anyway for alot of other reasons. Ill take a front locker. Maybe the boys at Eaton could get moving???? | ||
| Ho Chung (Thediscoho) Moderator Username: Thediscoho Post Number: 130 Registered: 02-2002 |
10 degrees... maybe in a dust free environment? kevin, do you also remember reading something about the 40/60 torque split between front and rear? ---------- Ho Chung | ||
| Kevin Bridges (Craniac) Member Username: Craniac Post Number: 79 Registered: 02-2003 |
Ho yes I do. I addressed that with said person and explained the Hummer in 4 hi " unlock" position was all wheel drive not 4 wheel drive. He disagreed. He said in 4 Hi "unlock" he can lift a tire and keep going, mine won't the floating tire just spins--kinda like the adds- | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 675 Registered: 09-2002 |
Does H2 use a viscus coupling or a differential in the t-case? | ||
| Kevin Bridges (Craniac) Member Username: Craniac Post Number: 81 Registered: 02-2003 |
I would assume it is mechanical due to the clunk-this is normal-it makes when engaged. | ||
| Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Senior Member Username: Leslie Post Number: 2071 Registered: 02-2002 |
it can climb a 10 degree incline with only one wheel on the ground I wanna watch.....  -L | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 676 Registered: 09-2002 |
The t-case diff. distributes power front to rear in different ratios. Power will go to the path of leaste resistance. If it is in unlocked you would be able to lift 3 wheels off the ground and move them all. When it is locked, the power is distributed 50/50 front to rear. You could lift one front and one rear and still be able to spin the wheels that are off the ground. this is how you can get cross axled and stuck. If your t-case is locked and your rear locker is engaged you could lift a rear wheel and power will still go to both sides but if a front is lifted powere will go only to that wheel effectively leaving you with 3 wheel drive. (you will still have power going to the front differential but it will follow the path of leaste resistance, left to right) Now, if you are unlocked and engage the rear locker power still goes to the path of least resisitance (front to rear). And if you are climbing a steep loose gravel hill you will find that all the power will go to the front drive diff. leaving your rear locker ineffective. That is why the locking t-case diff is so effective. (always 50/50 ft to rear regaurdless of the situation) ETC is different. The computer uses the same technology that aBS brake systems use. In a antilock situation the computer measures tires spinning slower than the others (locking up) and pulses a brake. When the ETC is active the computer measures the varience of one wheel spinng FASTER that the others and aplies the brake to that wheel. Using the pricipal that an open differential transfers power to the path of leaste resistance, the idea is the power goes to the wheel with traction. In simple terms you can use the idea that center diff. transfers power ft to rear. And in the open state power flows to the path of leaste resistance. (the locking center diff uses the exact same thoeory as axle diffs) The diffs. in the axles transfer power left to right. Traction control transfers power left to right using the braking system. clear as mud? | ||
| Kevin Bridges (Craniac) Member Username: Craniac Post Number: 83 Registered: 02-2003 |
Agreed in theroy, but it doesn't work for beans. This is why im wondering if anyone with a newer Disco has any better luck with it. I think its a waste of dash space for the button. And im with you Leslie, lets see it do it on one FRONT tire, talk is cheep. | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 677 Registered: 09-2002 |
Kevin, Which button is the waste of space? | ||
| Kevin Bridges (Craniac) Member Username: Craniac Post Number: 84 Registered: 02-2003 |
Brian, The one you use to cancel it. It seems to not need that one | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 678 Registered: 09-2002 |
The button to cancell the ETC? | ||
| Kevin Bridges (Craniac) Member Username: Craniac Post Number: 86 Registered: 02-2003 |
Yes but its called TC2 on the Hummer. You disengage it to allow for more wheel spin ie deep sand, mud, snow etc.... | ||
| Ho Chung (Thediscoho) Moderator Username: Thediscoho Post Number: 131 Registered: 02-2002 |
kevin, i bet you were on a 11-degree hill. ---------- Ho Chung | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 679 Registered: 09-2002 |
I could definatly see a reason to turn it off. Sometimes the tc could really hinder your forward progression and sometimes wheel spin is good. | ||
| Kevin Bridges (Craniac) Member Username: Craniac Post Number: 87 Registered: 02-2003 |
Ho Good point I will try recalibrating my inclinometer(is that a word) Dude,come on this test was done on flat ground! Come on someone break out your jack and see what happens | ||
| Steve Reisman (Barton) Member Username: Barton Post Number: 45 Registered: 02-2003 |
Disclaimer: I only know a combination of what I've seen, been told and experienced: only Muskyman is God-like in knowledge; I am not. Brianfriend is not God-like, but more along the lines of a messiah....Ho is like a prophet...and Greg the court jester (it's a hat thing Greg...sorry) A transfer case distributes the power to both front and rear axles...within the transfer case is the similar likes to the axles differential...allowing a differential in front and rear axle speeds: this situation can be working 100% of the time and is thusly referred to as FULL-TIME 4WD...which I have been told is the same as AWD (All-wheel-drive). I'm not sure if AWD = Full-time 4x4....but time and again it's been presented as such. This position is sometimes called 4Hi-Unlocked. When the transfer case is "locked" or CDL'd, the power is distributed 50/50...both axles get power regardless of the other axles condition. This situation gives the ride a more "binding" feel, is harder on the vehicle and should be done on surfaces that have some "give" to them....this mode is referred to as part-time 4x4. Sometimes regarded as 4Hi-Locked. In the unlocked, AWD or full-time 4WD position, any ONE tire in the air will result in NO FORWARD GO-GO.....unless you have a form of a traction control system. Braking the free-spinning wheel results in power not be entirely lost...other wheels then get torque and the battle for forward momentum continues. The reason somebody (can't imagine who??) might be inclined to believe the traction control system works, works, works...is because that person may have seen the excellent Land Rover demonstration video which clearly depicted this system working: as soon as a wheel got in the air..the wheel was braked by the TC and the vehicle continued forward. Because the LR's TC system is the same as the H2's (Bosch?)....one could, through the theory of transitivity...relate the performance of one rig to the other. Excuse me while I go outside and play around with some jacks and wood blocks..... | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 681 Registered: 09-2002 |
Steve, Your are right on all counts! Permanant 4wd and Awd share the same mechanical setup. Part time can be locked 50/50. An awd vehicle generally lacks a t-case. Subaru, Volvo...ect but the system is basicly the same set up with either a center diff or a viscus coupling unit to tie the drive shafts together but it is not lockable and there is no low range. I think that paragraph is repeatedly redundant. | ||
| Kevin Bridges (Craniac) Member Username: Craniac Post Number: 88 Registered: 02-2003 |
Wow, Well if it showed it on a video it must be true. Maybe like the video on the Hummer test course where none of the other rides could even come close to the Hummer. Hmmmmmmmmm, I wonder why they pulled that video so fast? Also I don't think full time FWD and AWD are the same. I think the decididng factor is a shiftable transfer case ie porsche vs (fill in the blank) | ||
| Kevin Bridges (Craniac) Member Username: Craniac Post Number: 89 Registered: 02-2003 |
Brian, You must have snuck that in wile is was writing that last post | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 682 Registered: 09-2002 |
Kevin....yes...the high/low t-case is the difference. There are some draw backs to the etc system. Next time you get a chance to climb a soft hill you can try it out. Try with no locker, or diff lock and drive as far as you can. When you get to the point that the etc engages you will feel it pulsing brakes and and transfering power, but eventually all the power will STILL go to one wheel. The system will become inactive and you are back to 1 wd. The system will not brake the one spinning wheel and tranfer power Back to the other wheels that it had just transfered power from. You are then SOL. That is why the cdl is so important even with etc. | ||
| Blue (Blue) New Member Username: Blue Post Number: 34 Registered: 04-2003 |
awwwwww shit, just slap an ARB in there and fuhgettaboutit | ||
| Kevin Bridges (Craniac) Member Username: Craniac Post Number: 90 Registered: 02-2003 |
Blue, If it was that easy id have one! There not avalible yet. Anyhoo-- no one has answered the question yet. Will the STOCK Disco move with one front and one back wheel in the air----sheesh | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 684 Registered: 09-2002 |
Kevin, Now that is the way to ask a question. Answere is Yes! | ||
| Kevin Bridges (Craniac) Member Username: Craniac Post Number: 91 Registered: 02-2003 |
Well im an idiot-and im wrong. Sorry Steve, but this time its a good thing to be wrong. After Brian's last post I went back over to the shop and jacked up the Hummer again and to my suprise,Steve, it did just like you said it would,D.I.C. said "traction active" and with a little more throttle it began to move even wile the tire in the air was still spinning quite fast. I guess I didn't try hard enough the first time.BTY What a queer feeling when it did start to move. I apoligise for wasting all the band width for something I could have answered myself but hey do they give points for honesty? | ||
| Jack Parker (Jack) Member Username: Jack Post Number: 137 Registered: 03-2002 |
While this isn't the same as wheels in the air, I'll see if I can find some lumbar this weekend and actually get one side in the air and drive off but... My driveway 3 months of the winter is drivers side wheels on solid, glaring ice. Passenger side wheels on packed snow. 12% grade. D2 w/ Blizzaks = stop, give it gas, hear the ETC, give it more gas and cruise up. The key is getting into the gas, instead of the tendancy to want to back off. I do this for kicks all winter, and I know the left side has NO traction, it's so slick you cannot walk on it without busting your ass. I've tried stopping and jamming on the gas, easing on, every possible combo, but the results are the same, there is traction transfered to the right side sufficient enough to get me up the hill. To Brian's point, with enough grade, slippage, etc, the system reaches it's limits and it's no-go. | ||
| Jack Parker (Jack) Member Username: Jack Post Number: 138 Registered: 03-2002 |
Kevin, As you noticed, you have to really get into the gas for ETC to work. I'm used to backing off the gas during first loss of traction, feathering it back on, and using the throttle to maintain momentum without going too fast, or too slow. Hmmm, designed for the unknowing masses maybe? It's taken me a long time to get used to it. I'm glad that with my '01 I have the option of adding CDL, and a locker. | ||
| Steve R (Barton) Member Username: Barton Post Number: 53 Registered: 02-2003 |
Okay....I spent the time and did the "test": I put 3 tires up in the air and left one front tire touching the ground. I fired up the engine and dropped the thing into drive. All the wheels in the air spun and nothing happened (besides 3 air-wheels turning). The TC system warning light came on indicating that traction control was not operating. I killed the engine and repeated the test with the same results. Then I pushed the button and shifted the transfer case into 4Hi-Locked....locking the transfer case to split power 50/50. This time I applied power...and as rpm's increased the one wheel on the ground started pulling the entire vehicle off it's blocks....dragging the H2 up my 6% driveway on one tire and pulling the lumber (like a sled) underneath the 3 other tires. It works, it works, it works: bite me, blow me....but you'll never tow me! | ||
| Steve R (Barton) Member Username: Barton Post Number: 54 Registered: 02-2003 |
Kevin.... Thanks dude....it takes a big man to admit when he's wrong ,when he's said something stupid...when he's come to terms with his being a total moron and should think twice before questioning another individual who obviously has a far greater caliber of both intellect and experience.......hehehehehehehhe...just kidding. But seriously...it's cool that you did acknowledge your mistake. You still The Man...but who's the tool now????? | ||
| Kevin Bridges (Craniac) Member Username: Craniac Post Number: 95 Registered: 02-2003 |
It wouldn't be the guy who stole his kids stuffed snake and wrapped it around his brush guard............would it? .........naaaaaaaaa | ||
| Steve R (Barton) Member Username: Barton Post Number: 55 Registered: 02-2003 |
Are you suffering from snake-envy??? At least I didn't lower the thing and put big chrome wheels and rubber-bands around them... | ||
| Brian Friend (Brianfriend) Senior Member Username: Brianfriend Post Number: 703 Registered: 09-2002 |
Bling bling! | ||
| Steve R (Barton) Member Username: Barton Post Number: 61 Registered: 02-2003 |
past-tense: blang blang And for the record: Disneyland, jungle-adventure ride, "jungle shack shop" $12 I also bought a fake rubber snake, carry with me 15 pound monofilament and typically screw with newbies while we "do lunch" while on the trail. Best altitude to date: made a 320 pound man jump about 26" in the air! |
