| Author | Message | ||
     Richard Dekkard (Richard_dekkard) New Member Username: Richard_dekkard Post Number: 1 Registered: 04-2003 |
On my way to my first trail run of the year, right about at Breckenridge, I noticed my engine running like crap.. Well, more crappy then usual.. Eisenhower pass is always hard for me to get over, but this time it was harder then normal, but I didnt notice any change in the engine till I got off I70 to head south toward the trail. Not feeling in the mood to stop and check it out, I figured if it still moved it was good enough for me, and I drove on another hour to the trail. After getting there I let everyone put their two cents in on what it might be, and the consensus was an exhaust leak. No biggy then, and I spent the next 8 hours offroading in Old Chinamans Gulch with the guys and gals. Time to go home came, and the truck made it back suprisingly well back over the mountains. Next day , I got a few more opinions, and the consensus was that while there may indeed be an exhaust leak, in actuality the real problem seemed to be that I was missing on at least 2 cylinders. I thought, ok, throw some new plugs in, maybe some new wires.. Its due for that stuff anyways at 95k. Bought some new plugs, and although I now had noticebly more power then problem was still there. Finally coerced the truck to work long enough to get over to my dealer. The computer gems hookup refused to pull any codes. He then hooked up a big dial thingamajig that tests something or another... and he basicly determined that it was an exhaust valve problem. Having since done the research on it, I can concur, and I also see that this is a fairly common problem. I dont have a huge desire in contributing $2000 plus to my nearly 100k engine, so I am closely considering a conversion to diesel. 2 options came to mind.. 300tdi and 2.8 powerstroke. Now, I found several 300tdi's both here and in england, and have done enough research to determine what I think the difficult areas with the conversion will be, but I of course still have a few reservations. There seems to be very little information about the 2.8 powerstroke, and while I love ECR, they of course arent going to tell you how easy something is, as they would lose business. From one site I found selling the 2.8 powerstroke, it gave the impression that the 2.8 did NOT need a new gearbox, and was a direct drop in conversion for V8 auto discoverys. It was my understanding that the need for a new gearbox with the 300tdi was due to different shapes in the bellhousing , and something to do with the torque levels not shifting gears right in an auto..or needing to convert the auto to a manual, can anyone clarify anything on this..? If i need to get an auto tdi box I guess its no big deal. However on the parts list for the 2.8 powerstroke it does mention adapter plates.. Has anyone done a 2.8 powerstroke conversion on any rover that can offer any tips? Has anyone done the 300tdi conversion on an auto, and kept it an auto? What opinions do people have on what the troublesome areas will be? thanks guys.. Prolly gonna make final decision and start this week.. | ||
| Dave_lucas (Dave_lucas) Senior Member Username: Dave_lucas Post Number: 368 Registered: 02-2002 |
Richard, I would talk to Charlie Haigh or Sean Gorman, on my last trip to Moab I was talking to Sean about putting a Diesel in an older disco and he rattled off a list of parts that he thought it would take. Sean is running a Diesel in his 90 and I belive that Charlie is getting ready to do a swap soon. I am not sure about their contact info, but Charlie is the parts manager at Land rover flat irons and Sean works as a tech there. You may want to post the question on this site since Charlie checks it from time to time and one of the club members may be able to give you some contact information. http://www.solihullsociety.org/ Oh, and here is a post asking the same question on the solihull site. http://pub64.ezboard.com/fthesolihullsocietyfrm6.showMessage?topicID=22.topic | ||
| Brad W. Boyd (Bwboyd87) New Member Username: Bwboyd87 Post Number: 5 Registered: 04-2003 |
I found a whole bunch of info on the 2.8l Powerstroke on the British Restoration website a month or so ago, so the link may help you figure out what parts are needed. http://www.britrest.com/HS28L.htm Mike Wesson (an Englishman) is the business owner up in Lennoxville, Quebec (2 hrs east of Montreal) is a nice enough guy...I bought some parts from him awhile back. Not sure if he has ever done this diesel conversion, but he seems to know alot about it. Good Luck, Brad | ||
| zane pukajlo (Zane) New Member Username: Zane Post Number: 11 Registered: 03-2003 |
As I understand it the automatic for the tdi is beefed up to take the down low torque of the diesel. The V8 ZF is not a good fit for either engine. Maybe swap it for an R380? If you plan on doing the swap yourself then take a look at ECR's project Discotech. It gave a very detailed description of a 300 being dropped into a D1. Could be very helpful! Lastly, I have heard and read that the tdi and the automatic aren't a good combination. Maybe someone with experience will chime in otherwise. Check to make sure that the emissions will be okay for the Denver Metro area. Food for thought. Maybe drop in a pursuit 4.6 and save some cash. Just my opinions, FWIW. Zane | ||
| Ron Brown (Ron) Senior Member Username: Ron Post Number: 273 Registered: 04-2001 |
If you are contemplating doing the conversion yourself why don't you just do the the valve job yourself? Ron | ||
| Richard Dekkard (Richard_dekkard) New Member Username: Richard_dekkard Post Number: 3 Registered: 04-2003 |
thanks for the info.. all good stuff.. Sean and Charlie are who I wheel with, so I know them well. BritRest seems to be the place at the momment with all the info and such. They also seem to list that the 2.8 is a direct replacement for the V8. kinda confusing , but Im sure I will get it cleared up monday with a phonecall. putting in a 4.6 would kinf of defeat the whole purpose, which is to get off these dreadful gas engines and ecu's. Ron, why would anyone want to do a valve job when you can put a diesel in?????? =) hehe Hate to say it, but Im sure everyone knows this deep down.. Rover V8's suck... | ||
| Norm Orschnorschki (Norm) New Member Username: Norm Post Number: 33 Registered: 02-2003 |
It's funny how all the folks in the UK salivate over the V8s and so many off road enthusists in the States, with comparatively cheap gas, are salivating over the Tdi. They crave the "horsepower" and relative smoothness of a V8 and we crave the low end torque and fuel economy of a Tdi. Until LR starts selling diesels in the US (likely never) the V8 to Tdi conversion sounds like it's about as complicated, expensive and time consuming as putting in a Chevy 350. A 4.6 conversion, while not exactly cheap, is literally a drop in and a new chip -- and a BIG improvement over the 3.9/4.0. What does the Tdi conversion cost -- $10 - $15K? You can drop in a 4.6 and buy a lot of premium gas for that amount. But if money is no object, go for it! Then again, you could just do a valve job and see it that fixes it. ---Norm | ||
| Richard Dekkard (Richard_dekkard) New Member Username: Richard_dekkard Post Number: 4 Registered: 04-2003 |
I suppose I agree with you in some ways norm. But Ill try to express my thoughts on it. My Disco is only for expedition / offroading , and is heavily modified. I do drive it around town everday, but I dont use it to commute or anything like that. With all the work I have put into my truck, with all the mods, and sweat, I fully intend to keep it forever. Even when mothernature catched up with the steel, I will swap out to a galvinized frame and new body shell if need be. That being the case, the thing that really is the trucks weak point up here in the mountains, and on long trips in the dessert is the V8. It has a hard time with the altitude, and is vulenerable to the high temps in the desert combined with offroad abuse. Add to that the lack of power, the bad fuel economy, and the high general maintenance costs. The price I found for a "drop in" 2.8 powerstroke so far is $10k. I think ECR charges 29K to do it. I have plenty of time, and love to work on my truck. Therefore from my perspective, the $10k spread over the further 200,000 miles plus I will get from that engine, along with the fuel savings, better eco-exhaust, and less costly and less often maintenance makes ALOT of sense.. I will also gain much more power, especially here at the high altitudes. A rover V8 has tremendous trouble getting up mountain passes at 11,000 feet. Now, I do not know this from my own experience yet... but all my sources and contacts are telling me that this 2.8 powerstroke literally drops in to the existing V8 mounts, and will bolt right up to the ZF 4 speed auto gearbox with no mods. That means you are left to only deal with the radiator, intercooler, fuel lines, air lines, exhaust, and a handfull of other fairly simple things.. If that turns out to be the case, it is hardly a rocket science project.. Now, I may change my mind after I have done it and run into problems, but it sounds like it will be much simpler then a 300tdi conversion. There arent alot of things we do to our trucks that make alot of sense.. In fact I would say 90% of it is highly questionable vs just having an old series to offroad in as stock, which we all know is a blast and can do almost anything. But adding a brand new, powerfull, economical diesel engine to your truck I think can be considered a good move "IF" you plan to keep your truck for 10 years plus.. Definatley makes sense to me.. I may change my mind on this, but I do plan to document and take pictures of every step in my process of the conversion. I was very frustrated with the lack of information on the internet. ECR had the only sort of pictures and descriptions. | ||
| joshua Frances (Joshua) Member Username: Joshua Post Number: 173 Registered: 10-2002 |
Richard I say go for it man. Im kinda in the same boat in terms on the engine...unsure what my next move will be. My only problem is the disco is my daily driver. I would love a diesel, and I have a speed already. I think the reason that you havent seen a ton of diesel convertions yet, is probably that, as you know, deisels are not accepted in the US like they are in Europe. As a ton of enthusiasts like you or I would "die" for one, Im not sure how many "regular olde" disco owners would want to convert. I would say, that once you have your diesel, you can start running Bio-diesel in it. It makes it much cleaner and takes no Mods to run it. If your into it enough, or have no Bio0deisel station near you, you can actually make it. Its very very simple. My best friend has been running B100 ( Bio-diesel 100% in his TDI 2003 jetta, and it kicks ass. 44MPG aint so bad either! just my thoughts, and good luck. GO 4 IT! joshua | ||
| Lester Ray Gerber (Raygerber) Member Username: Raygerber Post Number: 50 Registered: 09-2002 |
Richard, I know most people are all for the drop in of a 4.6L, but I say go for the diesel as well. I am looking at doing essentially what you're talking about, but I'm waiting for my engine to truly die (142k-still going strong) before I contemplate that move. Your rationale for the cost is exactly what I was thinking when you take into account mods, time & effort put into the truck, and expected lifetime of the truck. I've gotten good communication with Brittanica Restorations-but my truck is a 5 speed so we have some differences. I could be wrong but I think there is an adapter to bolt it into an auto. The only reason I say that is they mentioned to me that having a 5 speed was slightly cheaper and easier than an auto. As an aside, if the Crosslander does make it to the states there is one more option for the 2.8L diesel that should hopefully make things cheaper for those of us as the parts become proliferated. Of course, knowing Rovers, there will be no easy way to bolt that engine in and we'll be debating the merits of it for years to come. If you go for it please document and share, I am very interested in seeing how easy/difficult it is for you, as I am not interested in paying $20K+ to ECR. regards Ray | ||
| Mike Carino (Mikec) Member Username: Mikec Post Number: 77 Registered: 03-2002 |
Way to go Richard. Now you have Ray all worked up by letting him know that a 2.8 powerstroke will drop right in. Now if he could just get his engine to up and die instead of everything else around it, he'd be a happy man!!! Mike | ||
| Ray Gerber (Raygerber) Member Username: Raygerber Post Number: 51 Registered: 09-2002 |
See, its not good knowing people around here that check these boards too b/c now Mike is going to tell my wife about my designs and she is going to suspect me of plotting against my Disco's engine on purpose. Like it needs any help... Mike does speak the truth though, I am admittedly one of those Americans Norm mentions previously in this thread with an undue fascination of the diesel disco that is widely available in the UK-where they all seem to be angry b/c its hard to get the V8. What a strange world. Ray | ||
| Aaron Richardet (Draaronr) Member Username: Draaronr Post Number: 73 Registered: 09-2002 |
I've had diesel trucks before and they are awesome especially in torque which we need wheeling and towing to get there. I say go for the powerstroke. My friend has the tdi in his 2002 110 custom, yes 2002 techincally it is a kit car by title, but the engine is awesome, just a little low on torque for towing long distance. I would like to do the same conversion in the next year just hate to be the first good luck. | ||
| Richard Dekkard (Richard_dekkard) New Member Username: Richard_dekkard Post Number: 5 Registered: 04-2003 |
I was able to have a nice long conversation with Mike at Britanica Restorations monday morning. Here are the facts.. The powerstroke 2.8 diesel engine that they offer is absolutely ideal. It is a brand new engine of course, and has been sent from Brazil to the UK where there is a company that modifies 2 things, and maybe a few more. Engine mounts are fabricated and attached to the block allowing it to use your existing v8 mounts. Thus no cutting and fabricating as you would for a traditional 300tdi. Secondly, they manufacture and install an adapter plate to the engine that allows it to simply bolt right up to the ZF 4 speed auto transmission. Another added benefit is that it of course comes with all the additionals like a new starter, altenator, etc.. In addition, getting the whole airconditioning system worked out on a 300tdi seems to involve having to get a new ac unit that works on the engine, while the powerstoke 2.8 will only require a new mount for the compressor. I am placing my order in about 2 hours, and it will take about 3 weeks to get here, since it comes from england. Which is actually perfect, as its going to take me probably that long to yank this old piece of crap out of the engine bay, clean things up, and do a few other things while im in there. Because of the increased torque and power of this engine, I am going to upgrade all my axles and cv's, which is something I wanted to do anyway but didnt since the old ones hadnt broken yet, but it seems that it is inevitable with this new engine. I will also be upgrading my discs to the vented cross drilled from expedition exhchange, as my brakes already had trouble stopping me, and this new engine is going to make everything about 100-200 pounds heavier I think. Ill start with the pictures today as I set up the garage ( I have very little room ) and start to tear down my disco. | ||
| Mike Carino (Mikec) Member Username: Mikec Post Number: 79 Registered: 03-2002 |
Ray, your seceret is safe with me.I know how much you want a diesel in your truck, plus I want to see it as well. Then I can learn from your mistakes.hahaha I could probably find a shaman to cast a spell of death upon your motor if that would help!!!! Richard, please do keep us well informed. i am very much interested in how the transformation goes, possible problems that you run into and of course the results. Mike | ||
| Norm Orschnorschki (Norm) New Member Username: Norm Post Number: 34 Registered: 02-2003 |
Richard, more power to you if you're going to take on this beast. No doubt, a diesel is better for an expedition vehicle. It looks like $10,000 in parts plus your own labor -- that certainly beats ECR's $30,000 project if you don't mind doing the labor. I hope you'll post progress reports on this transplant. But for those of us (like me) who don't have the time, tools or mechanical inclination to take on a project of this magnitude, there's got to be a better way. I wonder just how difficult it would be to import a good used diesel Disco or Defender from Brazil or Argentina. Their economies have gone to crap down there, so I imagine a decent truck could be had for a relatively few US$. Don't know what hoops you'd have to go through to get one past the Feds, but with my questionable mechanical skills, I think I'd rather take a trip down to South America to make arrangements than be busting my knuckles for the next 8 months with questionable results. ---Norm | ||
| Peter Sharratt (Gummikuh) Member Username: Gummikuh Post Number: 53 Registered: 02-2003 |
Hi Richard Not everybody in the UK raves about the V8, I have a 300TDi and I think it is perfect, after a diet of slow thirsty old LR petrol engines, this is so much better. I understand that the 300TDi is not so good with an auto box and will seem really lethargic. The engines were uprated to compensate for it here in the UK. So make sure if you purchase a 300TDi that that is the one you get. Go for it, I wish I had a 2.8 in my truck, must be brilliant. If you neeed any info or pics of a 300TDI install let me know. Pete S. | ||
| Sonny (Sonny) New Member Username: Sonny Post Number: 1 Registered: 04-2003 |
Does anyone have any comments on availability of parts for the 2.8??? Would your truck be down for three weeks if you had to order a part from England?? | ||
| Peter Sharratt (Gummikuh) Member Username: Gummikuh Post Number: 60 Registered: 02-2003 |
Hi The engine is made in Brazil and on their website it lists parts etc. http://www.maxion-motores.com.br One thought though, has anyone looked into shipping a used 300Tdi engine from the UK, I am sure they wouldn`t work out that expensive, it really might be worth looking into a few UK breakers. http://www.equicar.co.uk/ http://www.landroverrecyclers.co.uk/ http://www.4x4breakers.net/ Best of luck Pete S. | ||
| Richard Dekkard (Richard_dekkard) New Member Username: Richard_dekkard Post Number: 9 Registered: 04-2003 |
$500 - $750 to ship a 300tdi to the us. | ||
| Peter Sharratt (Gummikuh) Member Username: Gummikuh Post Number: 61 Registered: 02-2003 |
Hi Richard Given that they go for between $1500-$3000 in the UK wouldn`t this work out cheaper?, plus if you let the guys know what you are doing, they will make sure that everything you will need is there. Just my thoughts Pete S | ||
| Richard Dekkard (Richard_dekkard) New Member Username: Richard_dekkard Post Number: 19 Registered: 04-2003 |
Pete, Its $4000 for a "used" 300tdi and 5 speed gearbox, and usually more...Then add the shipping on that. Converting my auto to a 5 speed, and changing the gearbox is alot more work as well.. I will be getting a brand new engine, that bolts right on to my existing zf auto gearbox. Cheaper was not my goal, but it would be to get a 300tdi and ship it over.. I hopefully will be getting the peace of mind of a new engine, more power, more torque, and less work for my extra $$.. | ||
| Richard Dekkard (Richard_dekkard) New Member Username: Richard_dekkard Post Number: 20 Registered: 04-2003 |
ok... my photo documentary has begun.. and so has my conversion... feel free to get involved on the site guys, and enjoy watching my adventure unfold.. http://www.rovercenter.com | ||
| Peter Sharratt (Gummikuh) Member Username: Gummikuh Post Number: 63 Registered: 02-2003 |
Hi Richard A new engine is best. Power to your elbow, and may your knuckles survive! Take care Pete S |
