| Author | Message | ||
     Reid Walkenhorst (Runningmule) New Member Username: Runningmule Post Number: 6 Registered: 05-2003 |
I want to run a dual battrey set-up on my DII. I'm planning on adding a winch in the near future. I'm not sure if I should set-up with an isolator or just run them in series. I'm not "planning" on using the winch very often, but...those situations are never planned for. I want to do it right but also be realistic. Could someone explain the advantages or disadvantages to both. thanks | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 719 Registered: 09-2002 |
Reid, if you connect two 12V batteries in series, you will have 24 volts feeding your ride. If you're really lucky, you will fry EVERY electrical part in your truck, but it's almost like winning a lottery. Most likely, the $2200 ECU will go in a little puff of smoke, but lights will survive  Use them in parallel, and use an isolator. You can get by without the isolator if you install two identical brand new batteries, but their life will be shorter than each of them separately. peter | ||
| Michael Slade (Serious_one) New Member Username: Serious_one Post Number: 19 Registered: 04-2003 |
Funny you should mention this. I finished my dual battery install today as a matter of fact. Here's some info: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=1517440#post1517440 | ||
| Eric Pena (Evalp) Senior Member Username: Evalp Post Number: 495 Registered: 06-2002 |
Thay have isolator/combiner that can do either with a flip of a switch. One you get draw off of one batt and the other as a backup, two, you get both in parallel for double the current for winching etc... There are alot of advantages to using an isolator/combiner I don't know where to start. Check out this company for info. http://www.hellroaring.com/4wheel.htm and http://expeditionexchange.com/dualoptima/ | ||
| Steve Cooper (Scrover) Senior Member Username: Scrover Post Number: 312 Registered: 09-2002 |
Here's my setup using the Hellroaring isolator/combiner and dual Odyssey batteries: http://www.landroverstuff.com/tech.htm Steve | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 267 Registered: 10-2002 |
a lot of people, myself included, have had zero problems with two optima yellow tops in parallel. just so you know. spend the extra money on the batteries and don't bother with the iso maybe? | ||
| Michael Slade (Serious_one) New Member Username: Serious_one Post Number: 22 Registered: 04-2003 |
i'm not going to run an isolator, however that Hellroaring one certainly is a nice setup. | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1417 Registered: 02-2002 |
I'm with Slade, when I had a dual battery setup, I did not isolate, nor did I match my batteries. Peace, Paul | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 726 Registered: 09-2002 |
That's okay, Paul and Jack. To simply connect two different batteries in parallel is a good and proven way to make a better battery out of two worse than the worst, and the worst - dead as a doornail. It's all a matter of time. peter | ||
| Larry Grubbs (Larryg) Member Username: Larryg Post Number: 228 Registered: 03-2002 |
I'm with everybody else. 2 batteries in Parallel, no problem. No isolator= More money in my pocket, 1 less thing to eventually break! Larry | ||
| Eric Pena (Evalp) Senior Member Username: Evalp Post Number: 496 Registered: 06-2002 |
The reason I like the iso idea is to have a backup in case the starter batt dies. Then flip switch and have more power for winching or if you needed it to last like winching when the car is not turned on or aux power. I myself am going to have a dual batt setup but have an iso installed with one batt in engine compartment and one in the back cargo area for aux power. Both with be charged by the alternator but only the starter batt for the vehicle electronics and the other for aux power. if one or the other drains, flip the switch back and start it up. | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 728 Registered: 09-2002 |
Larry, do you realize that after about 10 complete discharge/charge cycles one battery will be dead, and it'll only be there for bragging? peter | ||
| Derek Reed (Dmr) New Member Username: Dmr Post Number: 27 Registered: 11-2002 |
For the $30-$150 an isolator provides you with true backup battery. If you have problems with one of the two parallel batteries, it will take them both down. Also, with two batteries you have twice the chance of a battery related failure (opposed to bad charging system). Spend the money on isolator, even a cheap one will work. | ||
| Larry Grubbs (Larryg) Member Username: Larryg Post Number: 229 Registered: 03-2002 |
Peter, How many times have you completely discharged your battery? I've only done this once in 3 years. If your doing it more you have other issues you need to resolve. So be realistic. You act like it is a horrible thing to do this. You'll find that outside the "Rover Community" this is VERY COMMON! | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 729 Registered: 09-2002 |
Larry, I "act" like a person who'd built some battery-powered instrumentation for long-term deployments, so whatever I am saying has little in particular to "Rover Community" or F350 community or any other. Sure enough, it is not like using a C6 and ford escort in tandem pulling a stuck Disco. However, as you use two different batteries in parallel, every engine start, or winch use, or whatever else, acts toward making the batteries more unequal. People who do practice using batteries in parallel find it more and more useful - because they have to replace the dead ones more and more often. Sure, in most cases, it ain't a big deal if one goes south, just stop by the store and buy another one. If, for whatever reason, you place something on the line depending on the reserve capacity of a double battery setup, that extra 50% of juice in one battery may make some difference. BTW, something being VERY COMMON does not guarantee that it ain't dumb. peter | ||
| Eric Pena (Evalp) Senior Member Username: Evalp Post Number: 497 Registered: 06-2002 |
Larry, you may have only discharged your battery once but you could go outside tommorow and find a dead one. A short, leaving something on by mistake etc.. can cause it and remember we are dealing with Lucas here so anything could happend. Generaly we don't need the juice of both batteries, unless you have tons of electrical or too many light or something and in any case if you feel the need flip the switch and it is like in parallel. My thought on it is why not and have the added benifits. It does not hurt anything and it is better in the long run. As mentioned before, running two batteries in parallel does work but it may not be as clean of a setup as possable. | ||
| Reid Walkenhorst (Runningmule) New Member Username: Runningmule Post Number: 7 Registered: 05-2003 |
I am going to go with an isolator. I don't see the point in taking a chance. Most of my expeditions into the wild's of Idaho are by myself, therefor it's worth it to spend the extra dollars for piece of mind. | ||
| Eric Pena (Evalp) Senior Member Username: Evalp Post Number: 498 Registered: 06-2002 |
Good choice! | ||
| Michael Slade (Serious_one) New Member Username: Serious_one Post Number: 23 Registered: 04-2003 |
Well...as has been pointed out there are definite advantages and disadvantages to running dual batteries in parallel with and without an isolator. I have designed my fleet (2 LWB RR's, the CrewCab and the Serious One) around interchangeability and simplicity. For me to run isolators in every one of my vehicles is not only cost prohibitive, but unnecessary. I only have one truck at this time with dual batteries, and that is the CrewCab. If I go out alone (which I often do), I bring my own back-up: a blue-top Optima which has a quick disconnect on it. Each of my trucks has been wired with a quick-disconnect at the rear of the truck that matches the one pictured. Two of them are also wired this way to the front. I have 2 pair of jumper cables that are quick-disconnect as well. I can run my multi-mount on a vehicle with this setup, can run the multi-mount mounted to a trailer (powered by spare battery), use the battery to jump start any truck I own, and also power a small portable ARB compressor I have to top off tires, fill up the kids soccer balls, etc... Now, that still leave the issue of running without an isolator on the two (in my case identical matching) batteries. Yeah, I've pulled a stupid trick now and then and left myself with a dead battery. I've learned my lesson, which is why I have the spare. Not only is the spare handy to have, but can jump from truck to truck, and could also be loaned out (which is has been on many occasions). If I head out alone, I can always bring along my back-up, strap it down securely, and know that if the shit got *REALLY* deep, I could hook it up and run a 3-battery setup for some serious winching. Speaking of that, I could also run my chuck-wagon hooked up (has two parallel blue-tops), for a 4-battery setup. Now that's what I would call a BIG battery. Hellroaring's isolator is sweet. No doubt about it. Like with every single aspect of our hobby there are several correct answers. Some of them are nearer the top of being more correct, but ultimately each of us must individually wiegh the options and make the decision that is best for US. For the price of the Hellroaring isolator you could have a back-up Optima/quick disconnect and some pocket change. Decisions, decisions....(hopefully now the original poster has some real data to make up his mind with).  | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 730 Registered: 09-2002 |
what's the gauge of these wires, Mike? | ||
| Michael Slade (Serious_one) New Member Username: Serious_one Post Number: 24 Registered: 04-2003 |
on the battery? 2 guage. not the beefiest, obviously, but for that batteries use, it's fine (IMO). | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 732 Registered: 09-2002 |
it depends what gauge do you have running from the hookup point to the main battery. 2 gauge is sort of okay for 15-ft jumper cables. I dig the connectors, though. My local industrial surplus store had a cable with a similar connector (but way beefier, with something like 00 gauge wires attached), but no mating part... | ||
| Michael Slade (Serious_one) New Member Username: Serious_one Post Number: 25 Registered: 04-2003 |
www.wranglernw.com | ||
| Steve Cooper (Scrover) Senior Member Username: Scrover Post Number: 313 Registered: 09-2002 |
Peter, I think Ron A has some or you can also get them here up to 350amp/0gauge: http://www.solar-electric.com/hardware---wire-anderson-connectors.html | ||
| Max Thomason (Lrmax) Member Username: Lrmax Post Number: 152 Registered: 11-2002 |
I run my batteries in parallel, sometimes. I have two batteries under the hood, and I leave only one connected to the truck. I switch them every week. Whenever I need dual batteries (winch), then I pull a cable out of the center console and hook em' up. Extra-cheap battery isolater . Max T. P.S. Michael, that is a sweet setup with the blue top. Very crafty. | ||
| Michael Slade (Serious_one) New Member Username: Serious_one Post Number: 27 Registered: 04-2003 |
Crafty? Hehe. Like in a Martha Stewart kind of way? I like the extra-cheap battery isolator. Lesse a pic. | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1418 Registered: 02-2002 |
Just because I set mine up in parallel constantly hot does not mean that I'm not of the opinion that an isolator would not be beneficial. At the point I needed a secondary battery, the secondary would have been as dead as the primary (long story, coldest day of the year, lights left on, secondary battery mounted, but not wired up, wires in back of truck...). As for the cost of an isolator, a common winching/snowplow solenoid will only cost ~$10 and will serve the same purpose as some of the isolators. Worst case, a paper clip will allow me to jumper the solenoid to get started on the secondary battery. Yes Peter, I know about differences in internal cell resistance and its effect... However, I am equally familiar with the fact that if a common automotive battery is completely discharged more than once or twice, that battery ain't never gonna be the same! Peace, Paul | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 734 Registered: 09-2002 |
Paul, is that winching/snowplow solenoid the same as Ford starter relay? If so, good call. | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1421 Registered: 02-2002 |
Eggsactly-thank you. I bought one and then called GP Sorensen for specs and while not completely satisfied it was what I wanted, it is clealry sufficient (and, the price was less than $10). If and when I ever get to work on my own truck again, I intend to wire up the isolator with a momentary switch so I can trigger the solenoid should the primary battery go completely dead. The pulldown voltage is only on the order of four volts and the coil resistance is high enough to not draw a whole lot of current and the temperature rise is such that I have no real fears of it overheating on long trips. | ||
| Milan (Milan) Member Username: Milan Post Number: 201 Registered: 10-2002 |
Peter, The Ford truck starter solenoid looks the same but it and the one you want to use as a battery isolator are completely different inside. The starter solenoid is meant for intermittent duty only. The solenoid you need for dual battery setup is constant duty. Internaly they have a mechanism that prevents them from "freeing" under high amp load. You can buy these constant duty solenoids at any parts store that has some RV stuff on the shelves. They usually have it there and the package even has a little diagram on how to hook up an auxiliary battery. | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1423 Registered: 02-2002 |
Milan: The solenoid sold by GP Sorensen is suitable for both applications and is sold as the Ford solenoid. Peace, Paul | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 268 Registered: 10-2002 |
Well, I run the two yellow tops in parallel but I also bring one of those jumper boxes which is good for quite a few boosts. Of course, i've never even come close to needing it. In addition, I never recommended you wire to interstate megatron's together. If you are going to go parallel, you need top notch bats. I can drain my optimas to dead 300 times. Let's see if I ever do that. Clarify this for me: Aren't two twin (same age) Optima yellow tops in parallel just one big ass battery. If they are all linked up, why would one discharge more than the other. They both should drain at the same rate and charge at the same rate, there shouldn't be any "equalizing" at all other than the first connection. And although, they are getting half as much charge individually vis a vis the alternator, they are discharging at half the rate as well, so your sum total is the same. Am i right or am i right? Peter? | ||
| Milan (Milan) Member Username: Milan Post Number: 203 Registered: 10-2002 |
Paul, Continuous duty solenoid should be suitable for starting. They're just more expensive, so my guess is that's why they are not used as starter solenoids. The cheaper intermittent duty ones are used instead. I fried one of those using it as a winch solenoid, so I would not do that again. Is the GP Sorensen solenoid you're talking about continuous duty? Milan | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 736 Registered: 09-2002 |
Jack, a less charged battery will have more internal resistance, so, during the discharge cycle it will discharge almost as the better battery, but it will receive less charge from the alternator. This subtle difference, accumulated over a large number of charge/discharge cycles, will eventually leave one of them dead. The batteries of identical type, from the same batch, with the same history, are likely to have about 10% scatter as far as their parameters go. I'd have no problems with that, it may lessen their lives by about 20-30% - but it is kinda difficult to gauge, given with the fact that good batteries tend to live longer than their advertised lifetime. peter | ||
| Max Thomason (Lrmax) Member Username: Lrmax Post Number: 154 Registered: 11-2002 |
Michael, I meant crafty like getting your truck unstuck by kicking the tire. Pic? I'll see what I can do. But I don't know why you want to see it. Its just two batteries with one hooked up and the other just sitting there. Of course, if you summoned a pic, I will deliver it . Max T. | ||
| Michael Slade (Serious_one) New Member Username: Serious_one Post Number: 28 Registered: 04-2003 |
Well, ironically I used my Blue-top emergency battery TWICE today. Man, you guys know how to jinx a LR don't you! First was to fill the slow leaky left rear tire I have, then I had to jump start it this afternoon trying to go to a baseball game. Still trying to figure out why the blue-top that's inside the car would be dead, the ARB fridge wasn't on (plugged in though), and the only other power draw (that I know of ) is the clock. The truck has sat idle for about a week, so maybe the slow current draw from the clock, and an infinitesmily small (is that a word?) draw from an ARB fridge that's plugged in but not switched on might have done it. I have heard on RRC's that if you pull the key out, but the central plunger doesn't pop out all the way, it creates a battery draw. I have heard that happening to several different people, so I do believe it's true. ::::waving hands in air::::: "I summon a pic!" | ||
| Jon Bowers (Jonbowers7) Member Username: Jonbowers7 Post Number: 50 Registered: 07-2002 |
While we're on the dual battery subject, which I'm working towards as my next project, I'm curious if anyone has had to upgrade or change alternators to keep dual batteries charged. I want to run dual yellow tops in parallel, most likely w/ an isolator, and I'm looking for opinions and experience on this.. | ||
| Michael Slade (Serious_one) New Member Username: Serious_one Post Number: 39 Registered: 04-2003 |
Jon, I have the upgraded alternator from Wrangler (www.wranglernw.com), but haven't installed it yet. Was planning on it a LOONNNG time ago, but then about 1300 things got in the way, and the alternator sits, patiently.... I do plan to install it, I just don't think that you really would need it unless you are using a LOT of electronics and/or winching constantly. My .02 cents....again.... | ||
| Jack Quinlan (Jsq) Senior Member Username: Jsq Post Number: 275 Registered: 10-2002 |
jon, for just two batts you don't need it. you aren't charging anymore than with one battery, as they are losing charge at a slower rate. |
