| Author | Message | ||
     Porter Mann (Porter) New Member Username: Porter Post Number: 1 Registered: 05-2003 |
I was wondering if anyone has any ideas. I wanted to go do some lite wheeling and camping near Yosemite. I just moved to California and I haven't gotten used to all these regulations and permits that are required to go out in the wilderness. They told me that there are camp sites that don't allow pets - which doesn't work for me either. I wanted to see Yosemite, but it seems as though tons of people are going to be out there on memorial weekend. Nonetheless, I still want to see it, but what I would like to do is be able to wheel out to a place near the park (a few hours away), set up camp and not have to deal with people and let my dogs off lead. Then I could make a day trip out to the park. We would only have 1 Disco out there, so nothing serious, I'd rather not have to deal with being stuck. Does anyone know of any areas where I could do something like that. | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 751 Registered: 09-2002 |
Porter, I think ALL state parks don't allow pets on trails. You can have your dog on the campsite (usual regulations apply - on leash, no excessive noise, clean up the crap etc.), but not on trails. This is why I stopped going and supporting the state parks. This is different for areas designated as National Forests. There, regulations differ, but in most you can camp nearly wherever you want (provided you don't camp closer than something like 400 yards from existing campgrounds and private property, and no closer than 200ft from the bodies of water). In most of them, open fires are prohibited, but you can use a propane stove. Technically, you're only supposed to have your dog on the leash (which, sometimes, is not that bad of an idea), but it is rarely enforced. Yosemite is NOT a pet-friendly area, by any means. Leave your dog at home, or put the trip off until you can. However beautiful Yosemite may be, dealing with busloads of tourists is ugly. Trails crowded, prices outrageous, lines at eateries ugly, etc. I was not able to find any open trails in Yosemite area - which doesn't mean they don't exist, but there are no sources to point you in the right direction. FWIW, San Bernardino National Forest - however small the area may be - is a great camping area, rangers are cool about off-roaders (partly, because only off-roaders take the trash out and give a hand during clean-ups), you can 'wheel to the spot where there will be no one within at least half a mile, and let your dog roam free. Sequoia Nat'l Forest may be the same, check the archives and ask people about Dusy-Ershim trail. Good luck, peter | ||
| Mark Albrecht (Markalbrecht) Member Username: Markalbrecht Post Number: 82 Registered: 11-2002 |
I'll second Peter's State Park vs. National Forest distinction. Also important to remember is that National Parks usually require dogs on leash. And in Wilderness areas or other designated areas, even in a National Forest, off leash dogs are prohibited. | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 377 Registered: 08-2002 |
It is most definitely NOT true that ALL state parks do not allow pets. It IS almost always true that state parks require that pets be on lead and that some are restricted to certain areas and you can NEVER leave your dog alone-- legally. http://www.parks.ca.gov/pages/712/files/020303a.pdf http://search.parks.ca.gov/cgi-bin/MsmGo.exe?grab_id=41840910&EXTRA_ARG=&CFGNAME =MssFind%2Ecfg&host_id=1&page_id=95&query=pet&hiword=PET+ In general you are more likely to find a state park more pet freindly than a national park. For the most part this is due to irresponsible people that do not clean up after their pets or keep them under control. Off lead really does mean out of your control. State parks in CA change from park to park, but I have spent plenty of time with my dogs at CA state parks, you just need to call ahead and make sure that it is OK. National parks are very different, there are only a few National parks left in the entire Nations that allow pets off pavement. Most require them on lead and on pavement, no trails, no woods and only in campsites. This means it is very hard to visit a national park with a pet. However, there are typically boarding houses to be found in nearby cities for $10-$25/day. Make sure to bring you proof of recent vaccinations. As far as Yosemite goes I have found that the only crowed parts are within 1-3 miles of the valley and the Halfdome dome trail. Once you are in the backcountry, there are only hikers. i have left the crowded valley many times to fine solitude only a couple hours away. So there is incentive to get back there. Tuoleme (sp) meadows is definitely less crowded than the valley. You can camp out of the park over Tioga pass on the Lee Vining Creek between the meadows and the town of Lee Vining. Good fishing for stockers too. Monolake south on 395 from Lee Vining is cool and north & east you will find a historic and well preserved ghost town of Bodie. Near bridgeport there is excellent fishing as well as along highway 108 just north of bridgeport off of 395. Continue west on the 108 from 395/108 you will find the Marine Mountain Training (I think it is marines) facilities to the north, another good fishing hole just accross the 108 and you might even be straffed by a comanche or apache. If you continue futher west on the 108 there is a ton of places to wheel north of the highway. Never done it but seen tons of rigs there. There are some really great multi-use campsites around the green creek area as well. Don't forget that cleaning up after your pet and keeping them on leash is part of tread lightly. So... tread lightly. Hope this helps. Brian | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 753 Registered: 09-2002 |
Brian, Mono Lake is way off from Yosemite. Basically, driving on 120 between Mono and Yosemite and back will take the good part of the day. Speaking of state parks - every state park I've been to - in Michigan, Utah, Colorado, Arizona, and California - allowed the dogs at the campgrounds but NOT on trails. National parks differ, but National Forests usually have the most relaxed policy on camping and pets. peter | ||
| Porter Mann (Porter) New Member Username: Porter Post Number: 2 Registered: 05-2003 |
Wow, I had no idea about these rules and regulations about being in the parks. I used to live in Oregon, where once you get out of the city its wilderness, and often when I'm out there, there isn't a soul out there - even if I was out camping for a week. Your more likely to run into deer and elk then people. It sounds like these parks and national forests in California get a ton of people - kind of like a amusement park, without the rides. Sheesh, I can't see myself kenneling my dogs so that I could visit some park for the day. | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 754 Registered: 09-2002 |
Porter, exactly my feelings. | ||
| Stacey R Abend (Srafj40) Member Username: Srafj40 Post Number: 80 Registered: 03-2003 |
Porter, I have to go with Brian use the east side entrance, (if it is plowed/closed some times until July), and stay away from the crowd. In Mammoth there is a private camp site. I have camped in the winter and summer with my dog no hassles. It has showers etc.... Devils Post Pile is right there. Also check June Lake. The drive on 395 is a bit longer but far more impressive from Bishop on up to Lee Vining. Stacey | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 378 Registered: 08-2002 |
I do not remember the distance, but I have camped down lee vining creek and done day hikes in Yosemite dozens of times. You are away from the crowd. In addition you are definitely closer to the other areas that I mentioned. I am not one to camp in with the masses, so I would rather drive to a quiet campground then camp with 5k other people IF I am doing day hikes. Definitely preferrable is to drive to Yosemite Valley and hike to the back country where you will only see few people and who like yourself will be petless. Porter: California is no exception, virtually all national parks have these regulations and many state parks as well. Even here in CO there are state parks that do not even allow dogs-- anywhere-- ever. Roxborough is one and it is near highly populated Denver where many people would abuse the trails by not cleaning up after their dogs and not keeping them on lead. You can choose not to support these parks with these kind of regulations, but it will never make a difference to them. The rules are what they are and are due to foolish humans that do not believe in keeping their pets under control and cleaning up after them. Not supporting them will not change anything and you will miss out on some of the most scenic places in the country. Myself, if I wish to see these places, then I can find a place where my pet can stay. I see idiots with dogs all the time. Off lead and they believe they are in control. Crapping all over the place and acting like they never even saw it. We can blame ourselves for these rules. If you dog has never been kenneled it has not lived. If you have not been to any kennel in the past few years then welcome to last year. The kennels that I take my dog to in CO, UT and CA are very professional, they personally walk the dog and at the one near my home they get to run and play with other dogs that they LOVE! They come back home completely beat. A tired dog is definitely a good dog! Both of my dogs love kennels where they get out with other dogs, but you dog must be social. Even in the worst kennels they will typically take the dog out for a walk and back into the kennel. However I will only leave my animal in one of these for a few hours. The kennels that I frequent??? My dogs get excited when I take them there. Brian PS: If you do go to Green Creek and other creeks/rivers around lee vining and bridge port take about 5 gallons DEET. My chesapeake retriever was digging holes and covering herself in mud to stay away from the skeeters, flys and noseeums. It was kinda sad seeing them line up around her nose and eyes. We finally just had to let her in the tent, mud and all. | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 758 Registered: 09-2002 |
"If you dog has never been kenneled it has not lived" wow... not to say that it sounds like "if you haven't been to jail, you haven't lived," but it's an overstatement at least. Brian, do you know - sure you do - that most kennels do NOT accept non-neutered dogs? Or, is the next step to say "if your dog hasn't been neutered, it hasn't lived?" I don't make a public statement by not going to the state parks; however, i feel very strongly towards every institution that discriminates against pets. True, I would have missed Lassen if I made not paying the state park fees my principle; but - if Motel 6 takes dogs and Best Western doesn't... Now, what in the hell is wrong with the dog's crap? How the deers' crap is better than dogs'? I see crap all over equestrian trails that are often shared with hikers and bikers, and nobody's bitching about it. Speaking of control and the leash - there are two sides to it. One is the safety of your pet - no dog that I know will resist attacking the wildlife, regardless of the size ratio. That I understand - however the leash would likely make things worse if a bear walks right out on you. The other concern is the dog's attitude towards other people and their pets - and in 99% of all cases, this is just the same as their owners'. Maybe all 100%, if we believe the fighter dog owners. So if you see a dog aggressive towards others with no apparent reason, you can almost be sure that its owner's a dick. Why then the owners can roam free? peter | ||
| Blue (Blue) Senior Member Username: Blue Post Number: 54 Registered: 04-2003 |
Porter is on the right track....amusement parks without the rides. You don't see dogs at amusement parks, do you?  | ||
| Porter Mann (Porter) New Member Username: Porter Post Number: 3 Registered: 05-2003 |
You would think that people should understand that an agressive dog is completely unacceptable, but its not that way. Its not acceptable to have a kid that bullies other kids every time you walk on the street, why is it acceptable to have a dog that wants to beat up every dog it sees, or worse - being agressive with people. That being said, it sounds like the Lee Vining area and Mono lake sound pretty good. It sounds like it might be a good idea to avoid Yosemite for now. As an alternative, the Sequoia National park sounds pretty good too. What are people's experience with that. | ||
| Stacey R Abend (Srafj40) Member Username: Srafj40 Post Number: 84 Registered: 03-2003 |
Porter, I have only done that area from the east side off of 395. From Lone Pine to Bishop there will be access. My opinion is that the east side is less crowded and you do not have to drive in the Foothills. The granite spires just take off. It will be warm in the Owens River Valley and damn cold in the canyons and at altitude, be prepared. Check out the Taboose Pass area and just to the east of Big Pine. Bring the fly rod. Stacey | ||
| Stacey R Abend (Srafj40) Member Username: Srafj40 Post Number: 85 Registered: 03-2003 |
Porter, I ment west, (is the best), side of Big Pine. Stacey | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 761 Registered: 09-2002 |
I second that - never driven off pavement in this area (only near Mammoth and Mono Lake), but seen hundreds of dirt roads leading into the mountains. Some of them seem to wind their way from China Lake to Isabella Lake. peter | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Senior Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 347 Registered: 02-2003 |
i'm one of those assholes who is all for keeping pets of all kinds out of the parks. it taints my experience as much as it enriches yours, there are more of me so i win, no dogs. in my life i've met 1000 different dogs at least. i'd say 3 of them were well trained and none of them would i trust with out a leash, a dog is a wild animal and it cannot be trusted. i feel this way about many humans too but that view isn't socially acceptable like the dog thing. so i wait on the sidelines until more people realize that cruel and unusual punishment is actually a deterrent. rd | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 382 Registered: 08-2002 |
Peter, The kennels that I take my dogs treat the dogs much better than many owners. They will take dogs that are not nuetered, but will leave them kenneled (they cannot play with the others, it is really unsafe) and likely it will cost a tip or extra $$ to have them walked alone. At the places that my dogs frequent they are well treated and the dogs LOVE IT. When I contemplated doggie day care I went to quite a few, only the minority of them were anything close to what you say. The difference with dog crap is... it is concentrated in the areas where there are people, it is not cleaned up by the people, smells and is offensive to people. Because of this it also presents a bigger sanitation issue than wild animal crap. Dogs eat different stuff and it breaks down much different. If dogs were OK in all parks, most people would not clean up after their animals and you would have to dodge piles on the trail (annoys me as well). Many people would also not follow the "must be on lead" rule which with time would cause other problems. With regards to what you are saying about agressive dogs, it is hogwash. There are many dogs that ARE aggressive and all dogs CAN be agressive. Most of the time it has absolutely nothing to do with their owner. One fine example of this is my pointer, who is a rescue dog. He is very passive and is scared of people, especially men and especially when surprised. Because of this he is unpredictable and can/will/has become agressive. This is actually very common trait with dogs. I am definitely not an agressive person. There are also very many owners of rescue dogs that more commonly have agression issues (however these people are in general more experienced dog owners and trainers). When dogs are scared, when something surpises them, when others become agressive, absolutely any dog can become agressive. Many people also do not socialize thier dogs, putting dogs in close proximity with other dogs (like on a single track trail) can be dangerous for the animals and for the owners and inocent bystanders. The problem is further compounded by the fact that most people do not know what having their dog under control even means. For example is a dog under control when it is on lead? Off lead? What about on lead and in a heal? Really a dog is never completely under control, and if it feels threaten will become agressive. If you have never seen this in your dog, it is just a matter of time and/or situation (i.e. around another openly out-of-control agressive dog that openly threatens your dog will do the trick). If your personal well being is at stake, for example you are being attacked by a bear, by all means let go of the leash. The benefit of this would be far more than the drawback to the fine and in most cases a ranger would cut you some slack if they were there to fine you (thus they may have even seen the event). However in many cases (i.e. you have seen a bear, but are not being attacked), it will be much better if the dog is by you side barking its arse off. Anyhow, I understand your points. I too would like to be able to take my dog to our national parks, but it likely will never happen. If I wish to take my dog into the back country there are plenty of other opportunities. However there are also plenty of other options for people with pets that desire to spend some time in our national parks. One is a kennel. One would be finding a good temporary home. I have done both with good results. My animals have never been hurt and enjoy themselves to boot. | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 383 Registered: 08-2002 |
Dogs are domestic animals, not wild. | ||
| Blue (Blue) Senior Member Username: Blue Post Number: 59 Registered: 04-2003 |
the majority of domestic dogs are one shade of grey above rats. sure, there are pure-bred fanatics out there, but blue-ribbon winning Spot ain't no majestic wild animal. but don't get me wrong...I had a very enriching personal relationship with a pet rat. | ||
| Glenn Guinto (Glenn) Senior Member Username: Glenn Post Number: 606 Registered: 02-2002 |
http://164.109.58.26/dynamic/05_19_2003.html Scroll to the bottom. Third from the last article. I have a two year old boxer and he's one of the meanest looking dogs to the people that don't know them, but he's just a goof ball and is really a wimp. But as a lot of you pointed out, these creatures can just snap, just like people could. I guess it all boils down to being responsible owners. I wouldn't be too comfortable going to public places with my dog unleashed. To me a dog without a leash is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Just my .02 cents. Glenn | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 762 Registered: 09-2002 |
Brian, maybe I should revise the numbers of dogs matching their owners' attitude, but it is very true in general. Two of the dogs we've had since their early childhood (fox and airedale terriers) are completely friendly towards humans. Two other dogs in our family (a dachshund and a german hunting terrier) seemed to have been abused by the previous owners. The dachshund wasn't at all fond of small children, and it took a lot of work to get him in good disposition. Still, to the end of his days, he hated that little girl who had him before. The Jagdterrier may never be completely okay with humans. All our dogs, being hunters, will/would chase the wildlife no matter what. And all of them would fight back fiercely if attacked and there is no other way out. Which brings another observation - when the dogs are off the leash, they seem to feel less protected by their owners, and therefore be much less eager to start a fight. Blue, when I was in the age of potentially having a enriching relationship with a rat, my fox terrier would make sure that it would not happen. peter | ||
| Blue (Blue) Senior Member Username: Blue Post Number: 60 Registered: 04-2003 |
So what you're saying is that your fox terrier is overly-aggressive. Which, by means of deduction, indicates that you are overly aggressive. | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 764 Registered: 09-2002 |
He was overly aggressive to rats. I am overly aggressive to rats, too. your deduction is correct. | ||
| gp (Garrett) Senior Member Username: Garrett Post Number: 2107 Registered: 10-2001 |
blue. could you be a little more specific as to what type of relationship you had with this rat? | ||
| Blue (Blue) Senior Member Username: Blue Post Number: 62 Registered: 04-2003 |
well, the rat was a boy and he wasn't a gay rat, so we were just friends. | ||
| Porter Mann (Porter) New Member Username: Porter Post Number: 4 Registered: 05-2003 |
The discussion about dogs is a whole can of worms in itself, and I tell you I can go on and on for ever about the subject. I disagree with the idea that all dogs are not trustworthy. I train K9 search and rescue and I have been for many years. I work with a variety of different breeds and types of dogs everyday. I myself own two german shepherd, both of which I completely trust, and like their police counterparts, they're my partners. In fact, when we're working - my job is to simply tag along and put them in the right spot. They do all the work. My canines are professional working animals and they perform a function - mainly to save the ass of that idiot who's lost in the woods and take them back to their family. Now, that being said, I have a biased opinion about what I think it takes to own a dog. I agree with Rob that there are many dogs out there that have no training and irresonsible owners. I see that quite a bit. I also see owners who don't clean up after their dogs - and your right its completely annoying. I feel that dogs can be in control off leash, all a leash does is make it easy for the owner to drag their dog off when it doesn't listen becuase they haven't put the time and effort into making them obedient. My dogs are not agressive, nor are they out of control. I make it a point for them to be socalized with people, kids, dogs, and other animals as often as I can. I make it a point to train them every day and the result are dogs that loves to play with other dogs, sit patiently while kids are putting flowers in their ears and collar, and when put to work - could care less about Rocky the squirel and more about that lost subject in the woods. I'm not here to boast about them, but more to make the point that its possible to have dogs with voice control and its possible to have a predictable dog even without going so far as having a professional service canine. On the subject of agressivness, I think owners either encourage it, or discourage it. Its molding of the animal, and the stage its critical is at the adolescent age when they're still learning about the world and I think many owners miss the signs becuase they think its cute for a little puppy to bark or yip and not realize that the dog is fostering agressiveness. With rescue dogs, its different - those animals were mistreated and neglected at some point and it can often take a lot of work to solve issues they may have. I've seen poor handlers ruin dogs with great potential by not seeing signs of agression and allowing to blow up into something worse. I've seen other handlers pay attention to this - and great working dogs evolve. Bottom line is, how much time do you want to spend on you dog, and what do you want the final outcome to be. Most people don't see voice control as something important becuase for the most part its always on lead, nor do they think that socialization is necessary becuase it rare they meet other dogs. They deal with the consequences of out of control and agressiveness becuase for the most part its easier then constantly training. The reason I asked about where to go this weekend was 1. I wanted to get out into the woods and do some camping, 2. I wanted to train in a different location, give the dogs something fresh. 3. Give them a little space to run around without bothering people for the hard work they've been putting in lately. I have to admit, my standards are fairly high, especially for my dogs since they have to portray a professional appearance - its life or death for some of these people out there. My criteria is a simple question of whether if my own child was lost in the woods, would I use my dogs to find them. | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 385 Registered: 08-2002 |
Porter, Although I am not as you are experienced as in the training of dogs I am very familiar with what it takes. Both of my dogs will amaze most people at their ability to be under voice control and have been through years of training. To me voice control is very important. It is beneficial to every dog to know at least the drop command with voice and possibly even more importantly by sign. However, I will agree to disagree with you about a dog being in control under voice. Once a dog gets into it with another dog OR some other instinctual situation your voice will do nothing (like when my pointer is hot on a trail). I could boast about my dogs and their calmness around kids who are pulling ears, poking eyes or what have you, but these are not demanding situations for most calm, well trained dogs. What would be a good test is another overly agressive dog approaching on the same trail that wants to eat them alive. Or some person stepping onto the trail from behind a rock... something that will scare them. Your voice commands will have little impact when your dog is being attacked or thinks its life is somehow in danger. Adrenaline and instinct will take over. Just like in the hunt. Many hunting dogs break under the pressure and forget years of training and ignore the signs, calling or whistles. Even the most calm mannered guide dogs for the blind could go ballistic given the right situation. However, judging by the way that you describe your dogs, I am sure that they are amongst the most safe around and since I tend to understand the basic do's and don't with dogs, I would happily share a trail with them. But then again I have been bitten by a dog, that someone talked about in the same manner. For you and your dogs, there are plenty of wonderful spots near to Yosemite, they will just not be able to enjoy inside the park with you. However sad this is, it is true. I have always thought that I should just sew up one of those guide dog in training vests for the the little beasts and take them where ever I choose. | ||
| Rob Davison (Nosivad_bor) Senior Member Username: Nosivad_bor Post Number: 352 Registered: 02-2003 |
"just friends" my ass... potor sounds like you have some of the most highly trained dogs in the country,let them roam around and if anyone gives you flack, whip out your badge. dogs are wild animals and most humans are too. rd | ||
| Blue (Blue) Senior Member Username: Blue Post Number: 66 Registered: 04-2003 |
remember that gary larson cartoon where a couple of wild dogs are staring at another dog and saying to each other something like "look at that stupid grin, those blank eyes...domesticated for sure" | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 766 Registered: 09-2002 |
Brian, i'be been bitten by dogs many times in my life, mostly breaking the fights or rescuing cats from my fox terrier's teeth. Never a problem, never an infection or anything. Less of an annoyance than have the fucking channel locks slip and bite your fingers. peter | ||
| Porter Mann (Porter) New Member Username: Porter Post Number: 5 Registered: 05-2003 |
True, any dog is still a dog, and there are natural instincts that come into play when it becomes primal - like survival. I fully support that. The reason that I say that its possible to have voice control even at the extreme, was when I saw one of the search and rescue dogs fetching his reward toy after a find, and out of nowhere, from the nearby park - a dog came rushing after him, and had attached itself to his side. The handler quickly called the dog back, and amazingly it came - with the attacking dog attached. Its drive to listen to the handler was amazing, even by my standards. It ignored the attacking dog which eventually let go. The dog dropped the toy at his feet as was waiting for the next throw. A little bit of surgery in the field and 6 stitches later, he was up and about waiting for the toy again. He's probably one of those 3 dogs out of a 1000 that Rob saw. Then again, he has no pain tolerance and can atest to that with missing teeth from fetching his reward toy. As far as guide dog vests, just be careful - its a hefty fine for impersonating them, especially those for the blid. I know what being bitten is like, there's nothing more scary then some hairy 4x4 animal with teeth designed to tear flesh flying at you at break-neck speed. Brian, I can understand your aprehension about taking other people on their word, especially when it comes it how behaved their pets are. In the end, it is unfortunate I'll have to find some alternative to Yosemite, but as much as it is for me, I'm trying to make a conscience decision to include them so it'll have to be elsewhere. That, that I'm sure they're not going to cry over not seeing El Capitain. | ||
| Gil Stevens (Gil) Senior Member Username: Gil Post Number: 281 Registered: 02-2002 |
"dogs are wild animals and most humans are too" Thats the truth and then some. talk about one shade of grey.. Lucky for me, Im in CT where we dont have parks or open land, so we dont have these issues. Id be more concerned about the people than the dogs.. the human species is a wild animal in a cloak of self-worth... | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 386 Registered: 08-2002 |
Porter, I'd love to meet you and your dogs sometime, let us know if you are ever out in CO. The only German shepard that I am around regularly is a gaurd dog, so is pretty agressive. I love to meet some that are more mild mannered. I was just kidding about the guide dog vest. Hell if it were that big of a deal I would just do some work for guide dogs for the blind, then I could take a companion (albeit a temporary one) where ever I choose (well kind of). I have seen similar episodes with dogs that are under control and will admit that many dogs can be under this level of control, but still the same dog could in theory break. A funny story with my Chessy who typically gets really annoyed by the small barky types of dogs (i.e. fox terrier, just kidding ). One such dog (off lead I might add) ran from the owners home, accross the street to immediately latch onto and hang from her lip. Well my dog was in a heel at the time. I told here to sit, she did and she looked up at me with this "please remove this damn puppy from my lip sort of look". The owner then stormed out of his home claiming my dog attacked their dog, go figure. As far as El Capitain goes, they could see it, they just have to stay on the road I believe (now there is a lot of fun, huh). Check the rules though, I believe that they are OK on pavement and in campsights, just no trails or anywhere else. Peter: Those fights are some of the reasons that dogs are not allowed in our parks. Most pet owners that do not socialize their animals (many of them) have no clue how to break a fight and would press charges if you dog hurt their in any way (especially true in CA). You supported my argument previously made earlier, that biting dogs, fights and getting bitten are all some of the reasons for leash laws and the bogus laws in some parks. By all means keep that fox terrier on lead, lets hope it never tries the same with a large breed of dog, many will attack unlike the well trained dogs that Porter is talking out. Cheers, Brian | ||
| Stacey R Abend (Srafj40) Member Username: Srafj40 Post Number: 86 Registered: 03-2003 |
Porter, Do not cry over not seeing El Cap just yet. My feeling is the best time to visit the Valley is in winter. No crowds. My best friend worked the park for years. Get this, he was the park employee fitness director, (arranged soft ball games and day hikes for employees), and the employee bar manager. Winter is the time my friend. You can go snow shoeing (sp) and X-country skiing. It is quiet. For what you state is the purpose of this trip go to the east side. I do not get the whole dog phobia thing myself. Love the working dogs. Hey just sew a cross on some packs and move around as you see fit. :-) LOL. All I have to say about working dogs in public is go to Taos. Stacey | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 389 Registered: 08-2002 |
Stacey, Do people climb El Cap in the winter? Just curious. One time I watched for a few hours (summer time) while picnicing in the valley. A number of climbers took hours to go merely a hundred feet or so. We watched one guy start and in a few hours he was near the top. Rumor had it that he had a bet that he could climb El Cap, hike down, then climb the face of Half Dome and hike down in a day. P Pretty amazing and it looked like he was going to do it with ease. I want to do half dome again, but would like to try it on a "quiet" weekend just to see how much better shape I am in now. First time I said I would never do it again, now I want to just to see how much better I can do it... however, Yosemite is now a long ways away for me. Brian PS: I am not phobic(sp) of dogs, I am just cautious and do not trust them until I have been introduced and "know". A luxury that you do not have on the trail. It really only takes about one nasty bite from someones "friendly" dog to enforce this attitude. | ||
| Stacey R Abend (Srafj40) Member Username: Srafj40 Post Number: 87 Registered: 03-2003 |
Brian, Hey, are those dogs off their leash in that profile pick? LOL. I personally do not have any knowledge of a full assent in the heart of winter. My guess is that it has been done, and more than once. I know guys that get in shape for climbs in the Himalayas else where in the park so why not El Cap. I would have to ask my Buddy. If you are looking to do Half Dome with less people, try timing it for the fall before the first storm. Spring you have the whole snow challenge, crowds starting. Stacey | ||
| Brian Dickens (Bri) Senior Member Username: Bri Post Number: 391 Registered: 08-2002 |
No they are not, but they are in a car. My dogs get off lead quite a bit. Where legal and where people do not mind. Here is one of stanley getting ready to take a spin. I can't imagine doing El Cap even on a nice day, but I will try to do Half Dome again if I can get out to the bay area on business.  | ||
| Reed Cotton (Reedcotton) Member Username: Reedcotton Post Number: 86 Registered: 01-2003 |
A working dog, is a WORKING dog! Guide Dog, Rescue, Companion, Sheep Dog, etc... They have a right to be where they are working. On or off a lead. Pets! If there is going to be a high poulation density. Keep them at home, or in a kennel. If there are not so many people around, and the rules permit it, then take them along. It is rather easy to check the rules for most places. In National Forests, the rules are probably the most lax. Just be aware that private property often abuts, or lies within a National Forest, and if your pet is chasing game in the N.F. and continiues through a fence onto private land, the owner may take exception to this. I am a dog lover, and have had several dogs through the years. Usually they were all well behaved, but were also capable of turing a "blind eye" to instructions when "on-the-scent" and off the lead. Everybody, including me, thinks that their dogs are the best behaved in the world, and should be excepted from the rules. Unfortunatly, though everyone thinks that they are an expert dog handler, very few people really are. We are not even getting into what non-dog people think of our animals. Some are terrified just by the sight of a dog. (Go figure. My brothers Rottwieller(sp?) is just a big 100 Lb. plus pussycat. But other people may only see BIG, and TEETH!) Just because they are wimps, and may not even own Land Rovers, does not mean they should be terrified to go hiking because someone else has their pooch running around the campground too. (In the long run they will probably get bit by a "cute" little squirrel, catch rabies and die, but that is their choise.) BTW - Lassen is a National Park so would be the most restrictive towards pets. (There may also be a Lassen N.F. but it wouldn't be the same sights as wandering around the various vents at Lassen N.P. -Reed | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 769 Registered: 09-2002 |
LOL Reed, most vents in Lassen N.P. are fenced over, so you can't even take a picture of one without some human-built structure sneaking in. ... at least, dogs don't leave plastic bottles and punctured bicycle tubes after them... peter | ||
| Reed Cotton (Reedcotton) Member Username: Reedcotton Post Number: 87 Registered: 01-2003 |
Peter- Sad to hear tyhat. I haven't been to Lassen in many years when I was assisting with Geology feild trips. (Those days were fun and dangerous, but even then pets were not really welcomed there.) In recent years I have found that Yellowstone has had similar people protection. No argument about dogs being neater than a lot of people either. -Reed | ||
| Porter Mann (Porter) New Member Username: Porter Post Number: 6 Registered: 05-2003 |
I used to go to the Ape caves back in the early 90's On Mt. Saint Helens, they are hollowed out underground channels from lava flow. There used to be a rickety ladder with a few posted signs and that was it. We would walk by ourselves through the tube which would take 30-45 minutes in total darkness. There were smaller shorter caves we would explore as well. Now I hear that its totally different - its guided and there are wheelchair accessible areas. The smaller lava tubes have been closed, and it costs money to tour the main channel. What a way to ruin something - by commercializing it. | ||
| Porter Mann (Porter) New Member Username: Porter Post Number: 8 Registered: 05-2003 |
I just wanted to thank everyone who responded. I ended up going to Mammoth Lakes area and traveling on those dirt trails that Peter mentioned. It was absolutely great, there weren't many people way out there - in fact, I only saw maybe a half a dozen people. I got to see Monolake and June lake (which was pretty busy and packed). Devil's Post Pile wasn't accessible, the roads ended at the ski lodge in Mammoth and won't be open until sometime late June. Just for the fun of it, I went to Bodie the ghost town. From my experience this weekend, I would definately recommend the Mammoth area to Lee Vining. Even on this weekend - supposedly one of the biggest for outdoor activity, I didn't see near the number of people I expected. It was definately nice to get away. Thanks again. | ||
| Peter Matusov (Pmatusov) Senior Member Username: Pmatusov Post Number: 785 Registered: 09-2002 |
I'm glad you liked these trails. I've only driven there in winter, which usually resulted in a major stuck and self-recovery. |
