Compact Hand Guns

Log Out | Topics | Search Moderators | Register | Edit Profile

Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post   Closed: New threads not accepted on this page

Author Message   Chris Condon (Chris) Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 10:46 am:    I know there are a lot of gun buffs out there---so I thought I would throw out a question. I have been looking at some compact hand guns and was wonder what you guys think is best. I really like the Glock 36, but there is just something about the Walther PPK that I like. Does anyone else have some suggestions? Thanks, Chris   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 11:56 am:    wearing my stainless Sig P230 is like wearing nothing at all... P230 is now called the P232 after minor changes: http://www.sigarms.com/products/classicpersonalsize-models.asp?product_id=42&product_name=P232   BrianH Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 11:59 am:    What will be the primary purpose for the gun? What caliber are you looking for? Any budget constraints? Brian   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 12:12 pm:    hehehe no budget constraints?....HK P7M8   John Lee Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 12:19 pm:    "hehehe no budget constraints?....HK P7M8" Hehehe. Blue knows the real deal.   Chris Condon (Chris) Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 12:28 pm:    Well, I would say the purpose is mostly protection when I am in the middle of no where. I have actually never owned a gun, but have toyed with the thought of it. It finally took an interesting experience on a trip I took to AZ in January to convince me to get one. I actually plan on taking the necessary classes in order to carry concealed. Caliber---I not really particular as I do not know that much about them. I am really just looking for a good quality, compact, easy to use gun. Budget, I would rather stay below 1000. My preference would be $600-800 range. Any suggestions? Chris   Jeff Bieler (Mrbieler) Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 12:49 pm:    I like the J-frame S&W's. Mostly I shoot semi-auto's, but for size, simplicity, ease of use, and reliabilty, a J-frame is a good bet. .38 plinker ammo is very cheap so you can practice affordably, and there are good defense loads available. Bill's right about the P230 being a solid gun and John will tell you H&K every time ;-), but I think folks over look wheel guns and go for sexy sometimes.   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 01:04 pm:    best advice I can offer is two-fold: 1) go shopping - a good dealer will spend time with you and help you find what's right for you. Just spending 1/2 hour standing over the cases and holding different makes & models will narrow things down quite a bit. Go home and think about it, then come back and shoot some rounds, then go home and think about it some more, then come back and shoot some more, then decide. 2) get proper training - sounds like you're already on the right track there. So what happened in our fine state of AZ? Hope all is well.   Phillip Perkinson (R0ver4x4) Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 01:18 pm:    Glock makes good compact sidearms   Hank Shank (Disco_Tex) Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 02:29 pm:    I carry the Colt Combat Commander chambered in .45acp.   steveII Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 03:22 pm:    chris the first thing i'd do is go to a range that rents handguns and test fire what type you might be interested in. if you do not have a lot of firearms knowledge, a simpler revolver might be the way to go. you will lack the magazine capacity but the gun will be "ready to go". personally i like automatics. if you go with an automatic (semi) hand gun strongly recommend you choose one with an active decocker. the glocks are good as they are revolver like and very simple. you would also have to choose caliber if you worries are two legged - then i would not go below a 9mm. 45 is the perenial american favorite. there are special rounds called PDL personal defense loads that are among the best. alot of guys swoon over the 40cal but i do not like that caliber - the recoil is too sharp. 9mm with 147gr ranger STX is just fine as is 45 in PDL. if you can legally carry concealed then a compact is good. otherwise a full size will most likely serve you better and make you more accuarate as a newbie. glock - sig - hk are all excelllent guns with different character. do not let anyone talk you into a colt 45 1911 style pistol. these are NOT for a novice! also i just do not trust any sw product (sorry jeff!) buy what is comfortable for you. practice practice practice. i personally have a hk 45 tactical varient 4 no safety but active decocker so it's "ready to go" - oh last bit of advise - avoid a glock in anything other than 9mm. best of luck steveII   Chris Condon (Chris) Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 04:29 pm:    Thanks all for the input----it is extremely helpful. After I posted this morning I went to a dealership on the way home from work. I checked out a bunch of models. I really like the look of the Glock 27, I really like the SIG that you pointed out Blue---very cool. The dealer also recommended some other guns....mostly along the line of double-action only revolvers (the revolver looking gun with no hammer). He said that this type of gun is good for concealed applications as it will not cock itself and you can slip it into your pocket easily--not that I plan on carrying it in my pocket. Anyway, I plan on doing as you recommended Steve, I am going to go and try out some of these guns and see what I like. Blue--I had an absolutely wonderful trip to AZ. In fact, I hope to move there eventually. The incident is a long story involving what I believe to be a rouge semi-tuck driver and alcohol. Basically, the truck driver was messing around with me on the highway and he followed me into a rest area where he blocked me in, jumped out and started yelling at me frantically. Now if I had a gun, I would not of thought about shooting him, rather I believe that just knowing I was armed you have sedated him somewhat. In the end no one was hurt...but I am not afraid to admit the guy scared me a little. Chris   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 05:30 pm:    bummer Chris - I'm sure he was just "passing through", as opposed to being an AZ resident Being armed imparts a wonderful calming feeling on you - you are suddenly able to stand there and let some dipshit verbally assault you because you know that if he stops barking and decides to bite, you can put him down with ease.   Chris Condon (Chris) Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 05:45 pm:    You got it! Chris   Kyle Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 06:39 pm:    Shotgun,,,,,,,nothin says luvin like a good ole short barreled 12 ..... Kyle   steveII Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 07:44 pm:    chris just bear in mind - if you shoot someone - even if you are in the right - it will cost you between 50-70,000 $$ in legal fees but if it was a righteous shoot and you had no choice and you were carrying legally AND it saved your life - $70k is better than being 6 feet under! make sure of that particular state's firearms laws before commiting to a state of action. presenting a firearm is a 'flash point' - it will either end the situation right there OR it will cause it to escalate. sometimes people will backdown - sometimes it will cause them to attack. if they do back down - and you drive off - they could call the troopers on you - and if you are not carrying legally.... you get jacked up due to another's fault. personally i never go anywhere without my maglight and my multi-ax. never know when you'll have to chop wood at night LOL! if calif ever goes concealed ok - i would only carry on special occasions. gotta love AZ though - you can carry exposed BUT IT HAS TO BE LOADED! how far out is that! steveII   Phillip Perkinson (R0ver4x4) Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 07:50 pm:    yeah get a shotgun..arent as hidable but you can hit alot more easier   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 08:11 pm:    You don't want the Walther PPK.. There are nice to look at but, the one that I have used ( a friend of mine has one ) jams all the time. H&K or SIG and if they don't make it then you don't need it as far as hand guns go.. I have a Walther P99 in 40cal that is OK. But, I like my SIG 226 better.. Niether of which are very compact though.   Chris Condon (Chris) Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 08:54 pm:    Thanks for the sound advise/warning Steve. In Texas you are required to have a license to carry concealed. I would definitely make sure that I do everything legally. Plus, I don't think that I would be carrying all that often. Shotgun would definitely take care of any poblems---Plus, in Texas, all you have to do is openly display the gun in you vehicle to legally transport it. Maybe I could find a nice gun rack for my rear window Chris   John Lee Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 10:58 pm:    "Shotgun,,,,,,,nothin says luvin like a good ole short barreled 12 ....." Agreed. But get both the shotgun and the pistol. Pump shotguns are dirt cheap, so there's no real reason not to get one. Heck, if you can afford them, get the pistol, rifle, and shotgun. If you learn how to use these three weapons, you will be a considerable force to be reckoned with.   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 11:15 pm:    Boy, can't believe I missed this thread.... lol, well, I've got an excuse at least.... I like revolvers, for nolstalga. For use, auto is the way to go, IMO. 9mm is okay, I personally prefer a .45; but I really like the .40 S&W, as far as reasonable calibers. Smaller, and you're not going to be very effective, and more powerful becomes punishing to shoot. Glocks aren't bad as a rule, H&K pistols are well made; Sig and Walther are quality, too. (I like the quality of the P7, but it's kinda funky... it would take extra training for me to get used to it, but you should ALWAYS train with ANY gun that you intend to carry). [Eric N: If a PPK is jamming, it sounds as if it has some issues... it should be reliable... have a gunsmith check it out. Sometimes, though, it's a combination of certain ammo loads in conjunction with the recoil springs that creates jams (aside from true 'malfunctions'). Playing around with what rounds are used, or what springs are in there, and a competent gunsmith should be able to get it to be reliable. The downside to the PPK is that you're limited to either a .32, or a .380 ACP for caliber choice.... with good shot-placement, it's adequate, but under stress your accuracy usually goes to pot, which is why I lean towards the calibers that can do damage even on off-center-mass hits.] FWIW, I carry a Para-Ordnance P13-45. It's a M1911A1 firearm, .45 caliber, with 13 rounds in each magazine. I've added an ambidexterous safety, since I'm a lefty. Good gun. Regarding Steve's comment to M1911A1 pistols: I understand where he's coming from, but must respectfully diagree. The M1911A1 pistol is one of the most successful designs to ever come along. Yes, you need to be familiar with it, but... you should be familiar with ANY gun that you would carry, and I don't think that it would take any more training than any other pistol. I could field-strip a M1911 blindfolded before I was 12 (reason I went into the Marines is because dad had been a Marine, and had taught me a lot.... ). If you like a M1911A1, there's a whole gamut available. One that I would trust to pick up out of the box and run with it would be a Kimber. There are sexy race-guns out there, but realize that the tighter the tolerances, the easier it is to jam... for carry/defense, you don't need a target pistol. That's why H&K pistols are great carry guns, but aren't as accurate as say, a Wilson. Yet, even some of the cheap ones (Norinco) are still decent for use. Just put a LOT of rounds down-range, to become familiar with it, and to know if you can trust it or not. Check with your local clubs, or the NRA (yeah, I'm a life-member, if you hadn't guessed). They can help direct you to reputable training facilities in your area. Good luck, and be safe. -L   John Lee Posted on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 11:47 pm:    "Eric N: If a PPK is jamming, it sounds as if it has some issues... it should be reliable... have a gunsmith check it out." I'm guessing that the PPK that Eric saw choking was one of the Interarms-manufactured PPK's. The genuine German PPK's are widely known as very reliable pistols. The Interarms-manufactured PPK's and TPH's are notoriously unreliable weapons. Avoid these like the plague. Guns are lot like vehicle mods: there are good guns/mods and there are bad ones. Every time I go to the gun range, I see all kinds of guns choking and I scratch my head and wonder why people buy such crap. Same thing on the trail. The people who buy this stuff usually do so under the guise of saving money, but they end up spending more than if they had bought a quality gun or a quality aftermarket item for their trucks. My favorite pistol is the P7M8, but it's certainly not for everybody. The P7's manual of arms is unique and the pistol is horrendously expensive. I usually recommend a good revolver to most first-time pistol buyers because of the revolver's inherent simplicity. Revolvers also cost a lot less than equivalent-quality automatics, which is nice for those on a budget. My favorite duty revolver is the S&W Model 65 and my favorite concealment revolver is the S&W Centennial Airweight. Both are excellent. S&W automatics are absolute crap but their revolvers are excellent.   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 12:07 am:    Not my PPK so I really don't care.. The guns that I own don't jam and are very reliable.. Not sure if it is an Interarms or not but, I personaly wouldn't get one after shooting my friends..   ALAN GIFFORD (Discoal) Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 02:36 am:    IMHO You get what you paid for. If your buying your first hand gun, buy the best product you can afford. American walthers are not as refined as Belgium. I own both and shall never sell the Belgium. That said, Glock, Sigs, Berrs and Colts Delta make dam good guns. If thinking about the small concealable handguns, They are choppy and hard to pull the slides. Hard to hit a target at 25'. Small guns serve there purpose but colt python is rock solid. Get something that when it in your hand, it's almost as good as driving your Disco in the desert.   Anonymous Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 03:29 am:    Never take out a gun unless your gonna fire it. Never register a gun. Never handle a gun without gloves on. Never shoot anyone in front of someone else. Never Ever leave the scene with the weapon! Life is precious. Talk your way out of whatever you talked your way into. Only take a life in defense of your own. Once you take a life your never the same. With that said Tek 9, Mac 10, Mossberg 500   Danno Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 07:51 am:    Chris, i like the Glocks because they are inexpensive, easy to work on (just need a 3/32 punch)and reliable. i have a Glock G17, G23 and G27. The G27 is really nice and small and can fit in the pocket w/o any problmem. you could also use a high-cap mag from a G22 (15/17rd) or G23 (13/15rd) in the G27. For fun, you could get a G33 barrel (.357sig) and drop it right into the G27.   Paul D. Morgan (V22guy) Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 08:55 am:    Compact handguns? If you are in the middle of nowhere Arizona, go for distance. Reach out and touch someone before they touch you. I recommend the AK-47 if you have to positively reach out and express your desire to be alone. They have great reliabilty in the outdoor environment, unlike our M-16 and, NATO 7.62 is a great round for accuracy! Just having general non-tech fun, a former jarhead   Bill Bettridge (Billb) Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 09:53 am:    Paul - you jarheads still hate the poor ole M16 that much? Admittedly the AK and variants are pretty damn reliable in crappy conditions, but can't touch the accuracy of a set up M16/AR15. No flame here btw - just wondering if the military sentiment is still so strong against the black rifle. I shoot competetive high power with 03A3, Garand, M14 and AR15 and like -em all for completely different reasons. Can't argue with you over the the accuracy of the 7.62 - though when you're really reaching out the 30-06 in the 03A3 edges it out (IMO). I love being at the range and shooting sub-moa groups with any of the above rifles while the while the ultra-heavy barreled/scoped crowd is only doing the same - LOL (well - at least at 100 yds )   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 09:55 am:    If you really want to reach out and touch someone then I would recommend the ARMALITE AR-50.. http://www.armalite.com   Chris Condon (Chris) Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 10:33 am:    Leslie & Johm Lee, I would be interested in knowing what you think the pros and cons of the revolver vs. the automatic are? The dealer said he carries the S&W double action only revolver and would highly recommend it to me over the autos. What do you guys think? Chris   Paul D. Morgan (V22guy) Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 10:41 am:    Hey Bill, The old black rifle is not hated by the troops. Right now, The Corps is looking at updating to a more modern weapon. When the M-16 A1 came out in Vietnam; we lost a lot of Americans due to Jammed weapons. There are lots of stories that came from hill 1181 and the M-16's that couldn't fire. Now on the other hand, Eric is talking about serious hardware. I loved firing the 50! Especially flying along at 200 feet / 150 knots and firing the XM-218 50 cal at "assorted" targets. Why take the time to hit a target with one round when you can squeeze off six in a single trigger push! Paul   Jeff Bieler (Mrbieler) Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 11:00 am:    Chris, Guys go with what they know. How many folks here are going to admit that the gun they fire is a POS. Know many owners on this board who will admit their off road tires suck or that their last mod was a waste of money? If your dealers uses a revolver, is good with it, and knows hw to handle it, that's what works for him and that's what he can recommend with confidence. I guess I don't put that much stock in opinions I can't try out myself. If you're looking at getting a gun for defense and want to carry concelled (and in your home), revolvers still have alot to offer. I am happy with either. There are good guns and bad guns in both categories. In most cases, the ranges you're talking about (where you'll actually be shooting) are scary close. Historically, and the numbers prove this out, if you wind up drawing on someone, you'll be well inside 25 feet. A revolver is the true point and shoot. If the round fails to fire, pull the trigger again until the gun goes boom. There is very little to trip you up with a revolver. There are fans of both. Calibers in all types in all sizes are plentiful. The real answer, regardless of what you choose, is to make sure that you enjoy and are comfortable enough with your final decision to shoot a lot. Good shooting takes practice. People tend not to practice things they don't like doing. My first pistol was a 1911 and I am very comfortable with it. That's what I use now as well. That being said, I have also carried and shot a Model 60 for a while. I never felt undergunned or unprotected with it. It was easy to hide in my palm, light in my hand, and put rounds where I wanted them to go at 15~20'. The guns that really impress me are the ones with shooters behind them that can make the holes appear where they point the gun on a regular basis. Glocks jam when folks never clean them. H&K's are no good if you don't practice and can't keep rounds on target. Your 1911 sucks if it stove pipes on every 3rd round. A S&W is shit if it's too clumsy in your hand to get steady trigger pulls. It's a freaking' tool, not a sex toy.   Eric N (Grnrvr) Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 11:14 am:    Yes, I agree with what Jeff B is saying in that if you get a gun no matter what type/brand gun you get you need to learn how to use it and practice using it often. Not doing so makes you a danger to yourself and others.   E Snyder Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 12:50 pm:    For a novice, a double action revolver is hard to beat. The smaller frame 357s (Ruger SP101, etc.) is a good concealable model. You can practice with .38s, and load 357 +P hollow points for self defense. I have a Browning Hi-Power that is a beautiful auto. Kind of like the land rover of automatics... Doesn't always like hollow points, though. But autos are generally more complicated, (and therefore not as safe, in my opinion) if someone is just getting into the pistol business and wants to to just keep something around. It's extremely hard to predict your reaction in a life or death situation. Instinctively squeezing the trigger will happen, working the slide to load a shell and then squeezing might not. (Unless you carry it cocked and locked, which means you're really in a bad part of town!!! I guess the Glock and others are exceptions to this, in that with the two stage trigger they don't have a hammer, and are still safer to carry loaded. Oh well, whatever you get, shoot it a lot. Pistols are damn hard to hit anything with. Buy a 22 pistol and practice, practice, practice.   John Lee Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 01:18 pm:    Chris, "I would be interested in knowing what you think the pros and cons of the revolver vs. the automatic are?" This is a very contentious subject and used to fill dozens of gun magazines during the 1980's. There are several arguments that will never be resolved in the gun world, and this is one of them. Sort of like the ARB vs. Detroit debate, there really is no answer and it basically comes down to personal preference. Revolvers have advantages that cannot be denied. If a round in the chamber has a bad primer or doesn't discharge for whatever reason, the revolver shooter need only pull the trigger again to fire the next round in the chamber. With an auto, the shooter must rack the slide to eject the bad round from the chamber and chamber another round. Revolvers are very simple to operate. There is no safety. Just pull the trigger and the weapon discharges. Loading and unloading are both very simple and there is no complex manual of arms. If anyone is qualified to handle a pistol, he is qualified to operate a revolver. This is more of a consideration than many believe. Oftentimes someone with a P7 or a 1911 pistol will be very adept at its use, but his wife or friends will not be. If you're using a pistol for home defense, it makes sense to have that pistol be usable by everyone in the household. Another advantage of the revolver for home defense is that all of its springs are at rest when the weapon is stored. Thus, a revolver can be stored loaded almost indefinitely without fear of ruining the springs. Automatics by their very nature require that the magazine spring be compressed when the magazine is loaded. Some automatics like the 1911 must be stored cocked if you truly want the weapon to be ready, and the mainspring will be cocked and could conceivably take a set. I don't know how serious these spring problems are as I have never had a spring go bad, but the danger is at least out there. I worry about it enough that I routinely rotate the magazines on my P7's. If concealment is an issue, then revolvers have many advantages over the automatics. Small revolvers like the Chief's Special and Colt Agent are much easier to conceal within a pocket or an ankle holster than a mini Glock or a Kahr. The smaller automatics are generally not as reliable as their larger brethren, while the small revolvers are just as reliable as the service-sized revolvers. Some smaller automatics must be gripped firmly for them to function reliably. Not so with the smaller revolvers. Revolvers aren't as reliable as people think they are. A good automatic firing good ammunition will literally blow away a good revolver with good ammunition. A P7 can reliably fire thousands of rounds without cleaning or other disassembly. No revolver on earth can do that. Revolvers are also susceptible to pieces of gunpowder or sand getting under the ejector and locking up the gun. If you have a round with a case that is slightly out of spec and the flange is too thick, you could tie up the entire weapon. Revolvers also have finely tuned innards that are more susceptible to dirt than the mechanisms of good automatics. If it matters to you, the automatics hold more rounds. More importantly, the automatics are generally easier to shoot well. Revolvers fire from a fixed breech and thus recoil more than automatics. Some automatics are extraordinary in this regard. Weapons like the P7 operated on the gas-retarded blowback principle and recoil much less than any other 9mm pistol. Don't think that you are out of it or something if you get a revolver. A good man firing a good revolver is a serious force to be reckoned with. Shooting is sort of like golf. The player matters so much more than the clubs. For everything said above, there are valid counter arguments. Again, it basically comes down to personal preference. I think both revolvers and automatics have their place and I own both. As an illustration, my "carry" weapons are: Heckler & Koch P7M8 (9mm) Smith & Wesson 940 Centennial (9mm) LW Seecamp LWS32 (.32 ACP) The first and third are automatics and the second is a revolver. I chose them all for different reasons and each serves a different purpose.   M. K. Watson (Lrover94) Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 01:26 pm:    well let me give u my 3 cents. i carry a handgun everyday, and most of the time i am in uniform when i do. i actually believe in concealed carry, but with limits and controls. having said that, i have to go with Kyle... the shotgun is the best urban offensive/defensive weapon you can get. its just not the easiest to conceal. if you are goning to have to rely on the handgun to save you car or you nice stereo system, forget it. it just simply is not worth the legal woes that will follow the shooting. if your life or the life of someone you are attempting to defend, then IMHO get a .357 revolver of some kind. there are tons of them out there and in all reality they pretty much are of the same quality. resale values are another arguement but thats not the question. i have carried colts, glocks, S&W, walthers, wheel guns and autos. there has been adive to go to a rane and shoot as many guns as you can to find the one that FITS your hand. that is proberly the most important consideration. next unless you are a 40 pound weakling to fear big bore guns. the .357 is a real good defensive weapon, i am not going to get into a debate on ballistics and man stoppers and the advantage of 6 shots verse 15 or more. in all reality gunfights dont last long and its shot placement not the number of hot metal downrange in a minute. another factor that i look at is the fear reaction of the suspect. if i shoot one round down range and there is a rather impressive fireworks display out the muzzle of my weapon, i believe this would cause the suspect to crap himself to death if i am off my mark and if i do miss this overwhelming flame and noise display may just end all further aggression from the said suspect. anyways what you get is what you get, whatever it is spend some time with a real shooting instructor on a range punching holes in a paper target. teach your muscles to react when your brain locks up, this will keep you alive and may prevent you from missing you intended target and striking someone putting coins in the parking meter. all the macho crap aside, when you pick up that gun a point it at some one you are taking on so much responsiblty. there is so much that is going to happen to your life after the shooting that often times we are not ready for. this is something to consider. that is where less than lethal force weapons are a good idea. having the proper mind set is another consideration. to many ppl spend their lives with their heads up their respective asses and have no idea half the time what is going on outside their comfort zone. get outside the bubble and think...THINK before you get yourself in a spot that requires the use of force. THINK....have a plan of action now not before the suspect knocks on your window and demands you dismount your ride. THINK....talk to a lawyer about the laws in your state and what may happen if you are involved in a shooting. THINK....gey you head out of you ass and use the gray matter. 99.9% of the time you can avoid the necessity of using force simply by being prepared, thats PREPARED MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY. i pray that all of you whom i consider friends never get into a situation that you need to use any kind of force deadly or otherwise, but if you do be PREPARED. and of course this is IMHO   Chris Condon (Chris) Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 03:16 pm:    Man, I really appreciate all the input---it is extremely helpful. I am definitely going to do a lot more research and some actualy shooting before I commit to anything. I think I am going to find a gun that is not only useful to carry but also enjoyable to shoot recreationally, if possible (I love rifle marksmanship---just never done anything with pistols). Thanks again for all the insightful posts. Chris   Leslie N. Bright (Leslie) Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2002 - 09:39 pm:    Bill, I'm also a former jarhead, but instead of being a part of the airwing like Paul was, I was an 0311 (a grunt in the most basic sense of the word, a Marine rifleman). There's a bit of background that's not commonly known that hurt the M16's reputation. When the Air Force first started looking at Gene Stoner's designs, they obviously saw the advantages... which led to its adoption (in short, more rounds for the same weight, a lighter recoil which made it easier to train non-shooters to become shooters, easy to manufacture, no wood). What happened, though, was, believe it or not, as simple as a govt snafu in substitution. The ammo manufacturers didn't have significant quantities of the specified powder, and used a powder with a similar burn rate. The problem was that this is a gas-driven gun, and the wrong powder caused excessive fouling. So, all of these rounds with the wrong powder get shipped off to 'Nam, and put into hard use in a humid environment. Hence, the M16s consistantly jammed. Once the specified powder was being used, the jam problems almost dissappeared instantly. The other big thing was that the Marine Corps took the M16A1 and reworked it into THEIR specifications, which became the M16-A2. Better twist rate, better barrel, ambi-bump for ejected cases, better handguards, 3-round burst.... all-in-all, a very competent weapon. Some of the older salts argued that its predecessor, the M14, was a better rifle. I'll agree that it was a more elegant rifle, and had longer range in the issue-caliber, but the M16 met the needs of the grunt better. Chris, John has said it elegantly, and well. To add a bit of shading, perhaps.... A revolver is a bit more simple, if someone isn't as mechanically inclined. By nature, a semi-automatic pistol is going to be more complex. But, I still find their design and function elegant. I do have a preference for Browning's designs, the M1911A1 and the HP, but that is in part from a traditionalist nature that I have (kindred to my Series Rover habit.... lol ) As John pointed out, even a revolver is subject to reliability problems if not kept clean. However, it is less likely to suffer 'operator error' when being fired. Also, if you have a penchant for BIG calibers, you will find them in revolvers instead of automatics (.454 Casull, .44 Magnum, etc.) Yes, there's Desert Eagle's .50AE, but it's not really a concealed carry-gun, now is it? lol.... The downsides to the revolver... One of the biggest is instant loading. A lot of long-time carriers of a revolver get good at using speedloaders, but you're only loading 6-rounds at a time. With an automatic, even with the 10-round limit, you've got 20 rounds downrange with one magazine change versus 12 with the revolver. If you pick up a Glock 17 with the 17-round magazines and go through 2 magazines, well.... even if you're not a great competition shooter you would still have enough bullets towards the target that you'll have taken down the target. Also, they feel different. A revolver sits in your hand differently than an automatic. Some prefer one over the other. Once nice thing about the plethora of automatics, is that there is a good variety of designs out there.... if something doesn't feel right to you about one, find another and see if it works better for you. I 'love' my P13-45. But, I'm not a little fella.... if I was the size of baby-Ho, I would think that it was too fat in my hand. I should qualify... my comments have been in reference to double-action revolvers with swing-out cylinders. A single-action revolver, like the classic cowboy Colt .45, is great for shooting, but they're NOT practical for carry... unless you need a quick-draw gun from horseback! Anyway, maybe that's offered you a bit of something to mull over... More questions, ask! -L   Anonymous Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 01:38 am:    Anaconda with a 4in barrel Wife says I can buy guns but no ammo. I usually carry my ax in my trunk. Used to carry a machette which saved my ass big time once. That was enough. Upgraded to the ax.   Horness Spencer (Horness) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 08:09 am:    My 2 pennies from the UK. Carrying any "weapons" in your car (I've been questioned about my 3ft iron bar which I use for breaking wheel nuts), let alone loaded or concealed guns can land you in big trouble. I do full contact martial arts (Muay Thai, and Krabi Krabong mainy), and regularly have to transport swords, sticks, knives and other weapons for training purposes. I've been pulled over a couple of times (I'm sure the police sit and watch me leave) and heavily questioned about my actions etc. I've also been confronted at traffic lights while driving home with them stowed away in the back, hoping that the bunch of jerks don't see them. Presenting a weapon to a situation where someone is already worked up, can and often does inflame the situation. The person will either stand their ground, be quicker on the draw, or more likely to shoot first, ask later. Alternatively they will retaliate, and call for their mates, or find another way to seek "revenge" for losing this confrontation. My main piece of advice is: ...don't carry any weapon which you are not prepared to have used against you should anything go wrong. I know the gun laws, and indeed peoples outlook on carrying guns is totally different in the US, but if you are willing to present a gun to a situation, be prepared to be fired at yourself, and maybe have to pull the trigger and take someone's life. If you can talk someone out of a confrontation, it's alot better than wading in, and ending up putting lead label in the back of their head.   Chris Condon (Chris) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 09:29 am:    I absolutely agree with you Horness. The best way to resoslve any confrontation in peacefully, however, knowing that you have more than words to back you up imparts a great deal of confidence when arbitrating a confrontation. I have never really been into the whole martial arts thing and the only other "self-defense" type hobbly I like is fencing. However, it is just not the same with a sword anymore. I have a feeling that if I pulled out a foil and told the assailant to freeze, he would probably just start laughing. Anyway, I appreciate the input from across the pond! Chris   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 11:53 am:    words don't matter at all. They can't attack, can't hurt, and can't back you up. You don't have to worry about the guy that talks talks talks about how he's going to kick your ass, kill you, etc. You have to worry about the guy who doesn't say anything. When some moron confronts you and you don't say anything but "you don't want to talk to me, be on your way" the moron usually re-evaluates his situation. Your wits are your primary weapon. If the moron is too stupid to move along, then you know you are protected by your sidearm, knife, club, sawed-off 12, chain, rubber hose, 2x4, machete, axe, etc; this is your true backup.   John Lee Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 12:27 pm:    Horness, You speak as if most people carrying guns go looking for trouble or like to escalate simple arguments into lethal confrontations. Sure, there are people like this, but I think the vast majority of people who pack heat would rather avoid any confrontation at all if at all possible. Compare the individual's situation to that of a nation's. The nation uses diplomacy and other political means when dealing with other nations, and uses its military might only when there is no other meaningful alternative. There are nations in this world who are not amenable to argument and diplomacy, just as there are people in this world who cannot be reasoned with or dealt with in a civilized way. For those situations, a nation must maintain military forces. Similarly, an individual must maintain his own arsenal.   Ho Chung (Thediscoho) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 12:48 pm:    try this for peaceful confrontation:   Jeff Bieler (Mrbieler) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 01:16 pm:    Ho, you're going to shoot a penguin with Steve's AR-15?   Brian Jackson (Nerover) Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2002 - 07:34 pm:    Quote: I do full contact martial arts (Muay Thai I have to say...last year in Grand Cayman, I got hit by some Muay Thai (actually 12 Mai Tais!) and they sure kicked my ass!!! hehe I just recovered in the sun the next day. The spins went away after a few hours and a cold shower. Brian   JRoc Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 01:22 am:    How do you get the guy who's attacking you to stop and drink a mai tai??? Does that require a blender? If so, where do you hide a blender in a Disco? LOL, Just kidding, don't hurt me.   Horness Spencer (Horness) Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 08:13 am:    John - that was not my intended angle. I was trying to suggest that if someone is angry enough to confront someone else, and the situation is enflamed enough, adding a gun or weapon to the equation can make things worse. Having access to any weapon, be it a gun, stick, knife, or even a mag light is reassuring when you're in the situation, as you know it can be used to back you up - but it's not something you draw first, unless the situation absolutely positively, without any doubt calls for it. "uses its military might only when there is no other meaningful alternative" - this was my point exactly. I agree that there are nations and people out there who cannot be talked to or dissuaded, no matter how much you try, and for those reasons, brute force and/or weapons are the only alternative, but try the diplomatic approach first. My general outlook is that it is better to be judged by 12, than carried away by 6. I will ALWAYS strike first, in any situation, but not until I know the alternative approach will not work.   Zinhead Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 08:44 am:    Get a Desert Eagle. Best pistol in Counter-Strike. Nuff said.   Douglas Jones (Ozaukeedoug) Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 09:27 am:    "...where do you hide a blender in a Disco?" Just get one of these..   Douglas Jones (Ozaukeedoug) Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 09:31 am:    D'oh! Try it one more time:   Paul D. Morgan (V22guy) Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 09:42 am:    One Word about that blender.........AWESOME!   M. K. Watson (Lrover94) Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 10:47 am:    given the choice i rather have the blender over the desert eagle   Jeff Bieler (Mrbieler) Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 10:55 am:    Good point. It's historically been more difficult to dispose of a body then it is to kill someone. The blender would be a good investment.   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 11:53 am:    ooooh Desert Eagle. not a compact, and "pimp" for sure, but still nice....   E Snyder Posted on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 12:39 pm:    I thank God I don't live somewhere where the police harass me for carrying "weapons", such as my shovel and ax, my various tire irons, my limb risers (could be choke cables, you know...), my unloaded, unconcealed weapons driving to and from the range or field, and any number of other things that the boys who are breathing down Horness' neck may want to bug me about. I love my Rovers, but the Brits can keep their government... :-)   Horness Spencer (Horness) Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 04:14 am:    "the Brits can keep their government... " The government is trying to push through a anti-hunting ban at present, soon all of the UK will be turned into pre-programmed clueless, mindless idiots who think that the bigger the mouth, the better the idea. These people hate 4x4's, hate hunting, and hate guns. So when I turn up in my Disco, with a .243, and the aim of controlling the numbers of foxes, deer, rabbits or other "pests", I'm really made welcome. I've been threatened, spat at, kicked, and once (and only once!) punched. The world is going crazy! Anyone want to chip together to buy an island? Where it's okay to drive a 4x4 (as long as it's LR), hunting is encouraged, and owning a gun comes hand in hand with owning a pair of boots.   Horness Spencer (Horness) Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 04:16 am:    Oh, and to top it off - since this government got into power, I am now nearly £200 a month worse off!   M. K. Watson (Lrover94) Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 10:10 am:    hey horness, your style of govt is why we had the Revolutionary. dude i feel for you, but even the land of the free and home of the brave, is begining (really been doin it awhile)to become a govt of people that believe that opression and excessive control is a way to keep the masses happy.   John Lee Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 01:04 pm:    Horness, "Anyone want to chip together to buy an island? Where it's okay to drive a 4x4 (as long as it's LR), hunting is encouraged, and owning a gun comes hand in hand with owning a pair of boots." Well, it's not exacly an island, but the USA is a pretty good place to live. Pretty damn good.   Blue (Bluegill) Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 01:53 pm:    I still want my own island. Also thought of picking up an old oil tanker and coverting it to combination mobile home/island paradise/off-road utopia. Hey, if you're dreamin, dream big.   E Snyder Posted on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 04:03 pm:    Yikes! Sorry to hear all that, Horness. Not too many socialists in this thread. There are plenty of misguided people in this country that would love to see the same things happen here that you describe. Luckily they are still in the minority. In fact, here in VA we just voted in a constitutional amendment that guarantees the right to hunt and fish. Now if we can just get one for the right to off-road...