| Author | Message | ||
     Camille Brown (Discolady) New Member Username: Discolady Post Number: 17 Registered: 02-2003 |
Not the stupid fog light question.....reading the owners manual will answer many, many stupid quesitions! New Range Rover owner..... This is actually about a stalling problem w/ my '89 range rover. I have done some research in the archives, and I don't think it is the stepper motor based on other d-webber's postings. What exactly is happening: Range Rover idles just fine and runs strong. Then, for no reason at all, whether cruising along at 55mph, or sitting at a traffic light, the engine just completely quits with no warning at all (does not begin to run rough, etc.). Once this happens, I coast to a stop, put the rover in park, take the key out and put it back in again, and sometimes it starts right up, other times, it turns the engine but does not fire. When it chooses not to start, it can take up to 30 minutes before it will start again. What has been done: -cleaned the stepper motor anyway (died twice on the way home today...less than 10 miles!) -fuel system pressure checked--ok -fuel filter replaced -power to fuel pump--ok -distributer replaced -spark plugs new -ignition coil checked--ok Incidentally, it seems to be happening more since I tried putting fuel injector cleaner in the gas tank....alway put premium in... What could it be? What have I missed? ECU? O2 sensors? Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated! Chris | ||
| Steve Cooper (Scrover) Senior Member Username: Scrover Post Number: 330 Registered: 09-2002 |
Chris, Mine did the same thing when the coil was going bad. Next time it dies and won't start, hit the coil then see if it starts. If that's the problem make sure you get a Bosch or Lucas coil, others don't like to work on their side. Steve | ||
| Camille Brown (Discolady) New Member Username: Discolady Post Number: 18 Registered: 02-2003 |
Thanks Steve...I'll give that a try...the way it's been acting lately...it shouldn't take long for me to try! Chris | ||
| Jeffrey DelVecchio (Jeffreydv) New Member Username: Jeffreydv Post Number: 23 Registered: 01-2003 |
Sounds like a bad fuel pump to me. Try kicking the fuel tank or hitting it with the lug wrench next time it happens. Sometimes that can jolt it back to life. It is common for some GM fuel pumps to do this, which I believe the Rover pump is. Jeff | ||
| Camille Brown (Discolady) New Member Username: Discolady Post Number: 19 Registered: 02-2003 |
Hasn't died yet....Steve.••••• idea what the part # is for the Lucas or Bosch coil? Just doing some pricing...I figure maybe I'll replace it as well as the fuel pump (when I'm feeling really ambitious) just as a precaution. Thanks Jeff...thanks Steve....I'll repost as to how it all works out. Chris | ||
| Shane (Shane) Member Username: Shane Post Number: 65 Registered: 07-2002 |
I'd guess ignition module. | ||
| Jason Bradley (Jbradley) New Member Username: Jbradley Post Number: 6 Registered: 04-2003 |
stepper motor is cheap at autozone - get a new one just for grins and giggles. Autozone also has a fuel pump ( silver cylinder ) for approx $30 which you can solder into the existing fuel pump - good idea too. www.rangerover.net- or something like it - has the part #s. But ignition module sounds likely - got a spare to substitute in to test it ? | ||
| Mark & Bev Preston (Markp) Member Username: Markp Post Number: 205 Registered: 02-2002 |
If this was a Scout I'd say gold box ignition module :-) This sounds like electrical. Problem is it runs fine and can be hard to find. Probably coil or ignition module. Pull a spark plug wire and find a bolt or screw that fits in the wire. Set the bolt very close to the spark plug cap but not touching the cap. Have someone crank it and note the spark. Carry the bolt with you. Next time it dies repeat the above and see if you have a spark. If there's no spark you have isolated it to coil or module. Don't want to isolate it? Just start replacing parts. Gets expensive though. - Mark | ||
| Jon Santana (Mustache) Member Username: Mustache Post Number: 53 Registered: 09-2002 |
a few similar symptoms were suffered with my aftermarket coil. if its not LR, try replacing it with a genuine one. i generally dont subscribe to the smoke and mirrors about using OEM rover stuff, particularly Lucas made. but i had similar problems and they ceased immediately after i went back to OEM. good luck. Jon | ||
| Aaron Richardet (Draaronr) Member Username: Draaronr Post Number: 132 Registered: 09-2002 |
Just went through this on my 90, I would check ignition module first. Next time it dies check to see if you are getting power to the injectors. Is it temp dependent? I checked all the above stuff too, if no power to the injectors then it is the ECU. If power don't forget your fuel relays. My bet is ignition module then relays, good luck. | ||
| Camille Brown (Discolady) New Member Username: Discolady Post Number: 20 Registered: 02-2003 |
Thanks for all of the advice!! The good news is....I got the rangie to do it again....bad news is....2 hours later, it still wouldn't start! I gave up about 10pm and called AAA. I pulled and reseated the main plug to the distributer..pulled and re-seated all spark plug wires and swapped relays under the passenger seat w/ a spare (main and fuel pump). A couple of times, it sounded like it wanted to start...it would rumble for a couple of seconds, and then just quit. If you tried to tap the accelerator while it was rumbling....that would kill it. I've got it home now....I think I'll start w/ the coil. If it doesn't start in the morning...then I may try the bolt thing and see what I get. I must admit....I was a bit disheartened.....this is the first time any Land Rover has actually left me stranded (with no mud in sight)!!! Thanks for all of the input....I'm pretty sure I'll be trying everyone's suggestions at some point the way it's acting right now! Chris | ||
| Camille Brown (Discolady) New Member Username: Discolady Post Number: 21 Registered: 02-2003 |
Naturally.....I went out this morning to see if the rover would start....2nd crank.....it started! I almost wish it didn't start....at least that way as I start replacing things....I'd know what worked and what didn't! I'll keep all posted. Chris | ||
| A. Ali (Alia176) Member Username: Alia176 Post Number: 54 Registered: 03-2003 |
Camille, Do yourself a favor and begin with the ICM. If you need one for experiment, send me an email and I'll send you a spare one. It's behaving like as the ICM gets hotter, it start acting up but then when it's cool, no problem. Next time this happened, simply pull the ignition coil wire and lay it next to a metallic piece of engine or something. Then look for sparking as you crank the engine. You should be able to see it from outside the vehicle or even hear the crackling of the spark. Don't give up! Ali [email protected] | ||
| Mark Tappin (Hiprint) New Member Username: Hiprint Post Number: 19 Registered: 05-2003 |
I had the same discription of problem on my 92 RRC. If the engine seems really hot when you pop the hood it could be the thermosat, the engine leans it self out till it stops and then after it cools down you can restart it. This very cheap if this is your problem simply replace the thermostat. FYI drill a couple of small holes in the new thermostat to allow some water to pass when it fails again. FYI I changed my fuel pump before figuring this out.(not cheap) hope this helps Mark | ||
| Michael Slade (Serious_one) Member Username: Serious_one Post Number: 73 Registered: 04-2003 |
Camille, This is the EXACT same thing that's happening to me on my RRC. I've replaced the following: ICM ICM plug spark plugs wires cap rotor coil fuel pump fuel pump supply and return lines fuel filter Traced the problem down to some wiring underneath the seat that runs from the ECU to the fuel pump relays and switches. Get an allen driver and pull your seat off and get under there and start tracing wires. IMO, it's a power problem to the fuel pump. Dunno why it would be heat related though, even though mine does the same exact thing. I've isolated my problems to fuel pump power. Good luck working it out, this has stranded me off and on for the past 2 weeks (too cheap for a tow so I just waited for it to cool down and drive it). Damn Land Rovers! | ||
| Christian Kuhtz (Ckuhtz) New Member Username: Ckuhtz Post Number: 14 Registered: 05-2003 |
Hmm, fuel pump power could also be an intentional shutoff. ECU's generally use this as a last resort safety switch when things go bad in the ECU's eyes (for example, overboost protection on turbocharged engines). So, this could still be what the previous post described.. intervention from the ECU because of some temp problem etc being sensed. One way to check the lean condition hypothesis is to instrument the O2 sensor and see if you can observe lean condition. | ||
| Michael Slade (Serious_one) Member Username: Serious_one Post Number: 75 Registered: 04-2003 |
Now you're way over my head. I think that in my case it's been so dang hot here (104-107), that maybe underseat temps have caused the ECU to shut itself down. Is that something that is known to happen? I've never heard of it. | ||
| Christian Kuhtz (Ckuhtz) New Member Username: Ckuhtz Post Number: 15 Registered: 05-2003 |
Sorry ;).. Yes, it does happen and I have seen it happen with other ECU's. However, often it is a sign of something else being wrong, which causes the build-up of heat in the first place. Sometimes it's just that the area where the ECU is located is poorly ventilated or inadvertently heated by some other source. In one instance, overloaded injectors caused the injector driver stage to get very hot due to high injector utilization. This heated up the ECU, and caused weird gremlins starting with ignition failures and all sorts of other bizarre things. Thermal loads definitely do matter. An ECU is a computer, and they like it cool ;).. So, might be worthwhile checking the temp of the ECU when it happens (just with your hand would be a good start). As to the O2 sensor stuff.. an O2 sensor will read a voltage depending on the oxygen content of the exhaust gas. Generally, voltage is between 0V and 1.1V. If voltage is lower than .45V, that's on the lean side. Typically, this voltage oscillates between .2V and .7V, fairly rapidly. If the ECU reads .45V's, it knows the O2 sensor isn't warm yet and operates in open loop mode (running somewhat on the rich side). You need a high impedence voltmeter to measure this voltage, cheap voltmeters probably won't work as they tend to draw power. If the sensor is warm and the voltage never oscillates, that could indicate a bad O2 sensor. No voltage at all means the O2 sensor is fouled by carbon. There's a lot more to this, but I hope this is some useful info.. If it were me, it would be worthwhile checking to see how warm that ECU gets first before chasing other things. | ||
| Michael Slade (Serious_one) Member Username: Serious_one Post Number: 76 Registered: 04-2003 |
I've got new O2 sensors on the truck. I do know that the exhaust runs very close to the floorboards where the ECU is located, and it is generally very hot under the seat. I have some heat shielding insulation material that I am using on the bulkhead of my CrewCab. I can snag a section and place it under the ECU to get it away from the hot sheet metal. I'll do that tomorrow and report back how it went and if I notice anything cooler. I also have a cooking thermometer I will just place under the seat and see how hot it gets under there (too cheap for the thermo-lazer temp. reading device). This is the best thread I've ever seen on DiscoWeb. Keep it coming! | ||
| Michael D. Harmon (Tworottiedogs) New Member Username: Tworottiedogs Post Number: 3 Registered: 06-2003 |
Mine does the same thing and I am swapping the ECU soon. Sometimes my engine dies and sometimes other strange things happen like the radio or lights go out for a second. | ||
| Michael D. Harmon (Tworottiedogs) New Member Username: Tworottiedogs Post Number: 4 Registered: 06-2003 |
well, it wasn't the ecu for me. Same problem with the new/used ecu. It has got to be on of the million relays. | ||
| Michael Slade (Serious_one) Member Username: Serious_one Post Number: 81 Registered: 04-2003 |
try insulating your ECU and/or replacing the fuel pump relays (the silver w/red stripe ones). It hasn't been as hot here, so I don't know if what I've done works or not. Guess it's working until it fails again eh? | ||
| Christian Kuhtz (Ckuhtz) New Member Username: Ckuhtz Post Number: 16 Registered: 05-2003 |
Do our rovers have a dedicated ECU relay? Failing ECU/DME relays on other cars can cause a string of weird and quite bizarre engine shut-off problems.. | ||
| Aaron Richardet (Draaronr) Member Username: Draaronr Post Number: 139 Registered: 09-2002 |
NONE THAT I KNOW OF. I THINK THE ECU IS THE END OF THE LINE, BUT NOT 100% sure. | ||
| Michael Slade (Serious_one) Member Username: Serious_one Post Number: 90 Registered: 04-2003 |
I think Aaron is right. There is a Maxi-fuse under the drivers' seat though, that controls power to the whole car, but that is either a worky or no-worky thing, and not fickle like a failing relay. | ||
| Camille Brown (Discolady) New Member Username: Discolady Post Number: 23 Registered: 02-2003 |
I was just recently also told that my problem could be the relay for the fuel pump. I've heard of relays sticking before....but I would not have guessed that a relay could be that intermittent. One other car crazy guy was wondering if the lead wire from the coil to distrbuter was broken....gets real hot and separates, cools off and makes contact again....so many different places to start!!! Anyone got a spare RR?? Chris | ||
| jon clarey (Jonnyc) New Member Username: Jonnyc Post Number: 1 Registered: 06-2003 |
Discolady, looking at the symptoms, i would put my money on two (fairly cheap in the uk) items. firstly the ignition module (because you say it seems to start ok again - when it feels like it wants to) secondly the small vacume pump on the left side of the plenum chamber may be playing up, there is a method of bypassing it (temporary) i think you can find a link on how to do this at www.difflock.com hope this is of some help | ||
| Ian Bentley (Ibentley) New Member Username: Ibentley Post Number: 1 Registered: 06-2003 |
This is probably a long shot, but check your battery connections, cables and the ground connections. Had a similar problem on an '87 that was eventually (3 tows) traced to a cracked battery connection. | ||
| Paul T. Schram (Paulschram) Senior Member Username: Paulschram Post Number: 1680 Registered: 02-2002 |
Check the ground connection to the coil on the wheel well on the drivers side. There is a spade lug connector that gets corroded and causes problems. | ||
| Ron Brown (Ron) Senior Member Username: Ron Post Number: 432 Registered: 04-2001 |
Ok people there is a method to be followed: 1. Fuel or spark FIGURE THIS OUT FIRST! When it won't start, check for spark at the coil wire, if good check at a plug. Next pull the fuel line and see if you get fuel (caution fuel catches fire when you spray it on a manifold or lay a spark plug on it) If it is spark there is a finite amount of things that can cause an absense of spark. Check them in order. Ditto for fuel, power to fuel pump? Do relays click? Does pump run? Replacing parts is expensive and unnecessary if you have a brain. Ron | ||
| Camille Brown (Discolady) New Member Username: Discolady Post Number: 24 Registered: 02-2003 |
This has been a great thread!! Sorry I hadn't posted in a while....haven't had time to mess with it lately.... Funny thing though, I started the Rangie up a couple of days ago, and, of course, it fired right up....what is interesting is that the idle was very rough....I let it idle in driveway for a bit, and it was very sporadic.....it would idle up and back down and would not stop. I shut it off, then turned it back over...same thing...sound suspiciously like a stepper motor? My experience with fuel pumps has been that they either worked or they didn't...... could I be getting close? of course, it could just be condensation from sitting for a week or so.... CB | ||
| Camille Brown (Discolady) New Member Username: Discolady Post Number: 25 Registered: 02-2003 |
All: First....thanks again to the D-web folks that make this great site for trouble-shooting problems!! Ok, I replaced the stepper motor today and took it for a test drive (I haven't driven it since the first post!), and so far so good....didn't quit one time. I felt like I had to start somewhere.....that was just as good as any. If it dies again, my next test will be for spark at the coil and plugs.... Thanks again all..... Still trying to sneak up on it..... Chris | ||
| Camille Brown (Discolady) New Member Username: Discolady Post Number: 26 Registered: 02-2003 |
About 70+ miles this weekend on the new stepper motor, and no stalling or quiting from the engine. One thing I forgot to mention, I did notice that the spring on the old was definitely showing signs of wear.....it was noticably shorter than the new one...... Chris |
